Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How about imposing some sort of limitation on flier availability?

I think that fliers are an interesting addition to 40K, but also that spamming them in certain armies (which not all of them have the option to do) is potentially ruining it for a lot of people.

So I propose that squadron rules for fliers be scrapped (only 1 per force org slot not 3) and that no flier is ever classed as a dedicated transport.

I know this seems like I am picking on necron and IG players, but it seems like these are the two armies that get complained about the most as far as undercosted and overpowered fliers that are easily spammable are concerned.

BTW, I haven't even played against more than 1 flier in any of my games of 40K, so I am not trying to vent my frustration after my getting my army blown to pieces in a game.

But that means IG cannot run 9 grossly undercosted vendettas with 6 veterans plus 200 points of stuff to cower in the corner until they show up. How dare you suggest that!

Frankly the Necron flyer list is liveable. I find the CSM helturkeys annoying but liveable. The only problem I have is the COST of a valkrie/vendetta or more simply, its AV + cost. Make it AV 11 or 10 and it will be fine otherwise make it 200 points and then you won't see squadrons except in apocalypse games.

Hello,

I think air heavy armies can be fluffy and interesting, a whole force arriving by air is pretty cool.

As such I think a better house rule would be to target pts costs, not availability.

Maybe a 10-20% points tax on flying viecles would be a better solution, it would also be less targeted on guard and necrons.

When you propose a 10-20% tax on all fliers would this be across the board for all races?

I am not sure this would work as there are some fliers like the night scythe and vendetta that are greatly undercosted and others like the dark eldar and dark angel ones that people say are overcosted.

That being said, it is hard to implement points increases for some races fliers for being flying vehicles but not others.

Perhaps only apply the increases to those vehicles that were originally designed as skimmers but got changed to fliers with 6th edition?

That would be (IIRC):

Stormravens (BA & GK)
Night & Doom Scythes
Razorwings
Void Ravens

I would also propose a max armour value of 11 on the front or side for any flier and 10 on the rear.

Fliers are supposed to be lightly armoured and lightning fast so having the armour of a battle tank on one is ridiculous.

I guess the necron fliers are an exception to this as the av13 from quantum shielding is not a permanent increase.

Thoughts?

Supersonic and AV 12 should never exist... A heavy flyer should never be more than AV 11. The real problem of a vendetta/valkyrie is they are nigh unto immune to the limited anti-air available. One is a pain but 3 or more is just disgusting.
I would like to see a limit on squadrons... (really IG). The hybrid list is almost impossible to deal with... multiple LR and vendettas... good luck dealing with AV 14 + AV 12 flyers plus they still have about 800 points to play with.

Nobody complained much about Valkyries/Vendettas in the contexts of Apocalypse or the old Elysian list when they were thirty points more expensive, AV11-11-10, available as Dedicated Transports, and ran under a much more generous set of Flyer rules; seems to me that the AV downgrade would be fair under the new rules, it'd be the easiest way to balance everything out while remaining consistent.

It also seems to me like the biggest problem with flyers is that they're a new addition to the metagame that people are griping about having to prepare for now; they're good, but there are units (mostly Guard units, unfortunately) that chew flyers up and spit them out and are available as Allies to everyone.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nobody complained much about Valkyries/Vendettas in the contexts of Apocalypse or the old Elysian list when they were thirty points more expensive, AV11-11-10, available as Dedicated Transports, and ran under a much more generous set of Flyer rules; seems to me that the AV downgrade would be fair under the new rules, it'd be the easiest way to balance everything out while remaining consistent.

It also seems to me like the biggest problem with flyers is that they're a new addition to the metagame that people are griping about having to prepare for now; they're good, but there are units (mostly Guard units, unfortunately) that chew flyers up and spit them out and are available as Allies to everyone.

Everyone? My tyranids want a word with you. The only flyers I run are gargoyles, do those even count?

rohansoldier wrote:
When you propose a 10-20% tax on all fliers would this be across the board for all races?

I am not sure this would work as there are some fliers like the night scythe and vendetta that are greatly undercosted and others like the dark eldar and dark angel ones that people say are overcosted.

That being said, it is hard to implement points increases for some races fliers for being flying vehicles but not others.

Perhaps only apply the increases to those vehicles that were originally designed as skimmers but got changed to fliers with 6th edition?

That would be (IIRC):

Stormravens (BA & GK)
Night & Doom Scythes
Razorwings
Void Ravens

I would also propose a max armour value of 11 on the front or side for any flier and 10 on the rear.

Fliers are supposed to be lightly armoured and lightning fast so having the armour of a battle tank on one is ridiculous.

I guess the necron fliers are an exception to this as the av13 from quantum shielding is not a permanent increase.

Thoughts?

Don't forget Ork Dakka Jets and Bommas and the Storm Talon

Also, Necron Fliers are Av 11. No Quantum Shielding.

Tyranids cant really complain about Vendettas...

Nothing in your codex above the rank of grunt will be One-shotted by a Vendetta, unlike others who will lose a 200+ point vehicle or HQ choice to one stinking Lascannon...

The real problem with flyers in my experience is that they've added a new type of Thing to the game without adding any sort of Anti-Thing.

Heavy armour? Heavy weapons.
TEQ? Plasma weapons.
Blobs? Pie plates.
Flying Monstrous Creatures? Well, small arms until they drop then heavy weapons, so this isn't a problem unless the upgrade is too cheap.
Flyers? Other flyers.
Heavy Flyers? Other flyers with heavy weapons.

The game needs AA-weapon mounts, and no a single W3 T7 Sv3+ model does not count as AA.. Until then you can't do blanket nerfs. Some flyers are pretty damned reasonable while others are not.

Goddamn every game this year has either been vs IG (with Vendettas) or w/ IG allies (again, starring Vendettas).

feth it, I'm just going to say "no fliers if you want to play me" and be done with it.

If people struggle against trukk's/lootas can they say 'stuff it, no trukk's/lootas if you want to play me'? Because fair is fair dakkamite, if you are going to put a blanket ban on some people's models, they can put it on yours.

 Dakkamite wrote:


feth it, I'm just going to say "no fliers if you want to play me" and be done with it.

feth it, I'm so sick of seeing shoota boyz every where. I'm just going to say "no boyz if you want to play with me." I'm sure my opponent won't mind, and I'm sure there are plenty of others around to play too if my opponent does mind.

Don't forget Ork Dakka Jets and Bommas and the Storm Talon

Also, Necron Fliers are Av 11. No Quantum Shielding.

Orks are 10 All Round, and Stormtalons are indeed 12/12/10. They also have the immune to Melta thing that Stormravens have.

 IHateNids wrote:
Orks are 10 All Round, and Stormtalons are indeed 12/12/10. They also have the immune to Melta thing that Stormravens have.

Stormtalons are 11/11/10. I can't remember if they have Ceramite Plating, but I don't think they do.

Ok, overestimating its armour...

they deffinately have Ceramite Plating though

Phonics wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nobody complained much about Valkyries/Vendettas in the contexts of Apocalypse or the old Elysian list when they were thirty points more expensive, AV11-11-10, available as Dedicated Transports, and ran under a much more generous set of Flyer rules; seems to me that the AV downgrade would be fair under the new rules, it'd be the easiest way to balance everything out while remaining consistent.

It also seems to me like the biggest problem with flyers is that they're a new addition to the metagame that people are griping about having to prepare for now; they're good, but there are units (mostly Guard units, unfortunately) that chew flyers up and spit them out and are available as Allies to everyone.

Everyone? My tyranids want a word with you. The only flyers I run are gargoyles, do those even count?

Yeah, sorry, oversight; Tyranids are in a pretty big mess with flyers.

Really, until we start nerfing flyers maybe we should do the opposite first and give some actual AA into the game? As of right now, very few armies have ways to actual deal with fliers short of a Quad-Gun or snap-shooting. Instead of making fliers worse or more expensive (which, they should be anyway in newer books I feel) we should give armies actual anti-air units or capabilities and see how that plays out

For now its a bit off balance.
Once the books have been updated though it should be pretty decent again.
Just a case of the usual uneven updates leaving some out in the cold for a while.

We have kind of an unwritten rule at our club, that is "Don't bring more than one flyer without asking, and don't bring more than one flier unless the opponent has the same."

I only own two myself, both of which usually find themselves as Turn 3 Troll Cards dropping Warriors in Rapid Fire range of whatever I want to die 'now'

No one at the Local seems to object to two

If you look at the grey knight/ blood angels flyer it may be av12 but it isn't cheap on points. The point tax would be a good idea, but i would put it on if my opponent was bringing 3+ fliers, because then eldar and other armies that currently are out dated can't possible handle any amount of fliers that high. The main vehicle i have a problem with is when Ig or Necrons start bringing more than 1 squadron or 3 fliers because that just becomes Impossible to deal with.

rohansoldier wrote:
How about imposing some sort of limitation on flier availability?

I think that fliers are an interesting addition to 40K, but also that spamming them in certain armies (which not all of them have the option to do) is potentially ruining it for a lot of people.

So I propose that squadron rules for fliers be scrapped (only 1 per force org slot not 3) and that no flier is ever classed as a dedicated transport.

I know this seems like I am picking on necron and IG players, but it seems like these are the two armies that get complained about the most as far as undercosted and overpowered fliers that are easily spammable are concerned.

BTW, I haven't even played against more than 1 flier in any of my games of 40K, so I am not trying to vent my frustration after my getting my army blown to pieces in a game.

The best route is to introduce more fliers and AA options, not to gimp Fliers as a whole.

Yes more AA is needed, but losing squadron won't be that bad. at 2000 points they could still bring 6, and if allied with necrons could bring potentially still a lot more. It could be limited to only being allowed to take 1 squadron per force org. This would allow for some of the other options to be taken.

Slayer222 wrote:
Yes more AA is needed, but losing squadron won't be that bad. at 2000 points they could still bring 6, and if allied with necrons could bring potentially still a lot more. It could be limited to only being allowed to take 1 squadron per force org. This would allow for some of the other options to be taken.

I'm generally against limiting how many non special character units you can have. So I'm still going to say no.

 motyak wrote:
If people struggle against trukk's/lootas can they say 'stuff it, no trukk's/lootas if you want to play me'? Because fair is fair dakkamite, if you are going to put a blanket ban on some people's models, they can put it on yours.

feth it, I'm so sick of seeing shoota boyz every where. I'm just going to say "no boyz if you want to play with me." I'm sure my opponent won't mind, and I'm sure there are plenty of others around to play too if my opponent does mind.

Way to strawman my argument. Theres a difference between banning a class of models and banning specific ones. If you say no lootas, but run Space Marines, I'm impaired and you aren't. If I say no fliers, we're both affected equally. And if you've got an issue with my wanting to play without GW's latest pay 2 win shenanigans, sucks to be you I guess. That said, I would play a "no Lootas" game or whatever if I was able to ban an equivalent overused unit in the opponents force. People can make of this game what they want, and if what they want is "no X" then thats what they should be able to get.

Also as if banning fliers is the same as banning a core troop choice one faction, you ass.

Bet you'd have an issue with "no special characters" or "no allies" as well. I for one am sick of fighting Yarrick again and again (and again) whenever I encounter Imperial Guard.

The problem with IG is that it's a 5th edition codex in 6th edition. I never remember anyone complaining about Vendettas and Valkyries cause they could shoot them out of the air with minimal problem. As an armour 12 skimmer, they can be dealt with, and they are a bargain for their points, but I never found them to be especially underpriced as skimmers.

Now, when they became flyers, at 130 points of mean, with a high strength gun that all other flyers (barring storm ravens with meltas in melta range) can't match, they are way too cheap.

Honestly, I believe if Robin writes the next IG codex, they'll be 150 points, no squadrons for flyers.

If Phil Kelly writes it, they'll be 135 points, with a table to roll on to find out what kind of missile you're firing does.

If Vetock writes it, it will be able to drop to skimmer mode, and if it doesn't move, it can fire an extra shot at half range.

And if Matt Ward writes it, it'll stay exactly the same, and be 80 points.

After all, if there is only one single army Robin can write well, its 'Umans.

Pick the pill you wanna swallow.

I think i like the Robin one the best

I actually agree with a hard cap on flyers. I say put em in their own force org slot, limit 1-3 (depending on army), no squadrons. I play crons now and then, and even I think bringing in the croissant fleet is dirty. I have a self-imposed 1 flyer limit, because bringing nothing but black breakfast pastries to a game is a quick way to lose friends. I am glad the meta at my store agrees, very few players run more than a single flyer, if any, but I feel that this is a bit of an exception, not a rule. As for armies who use all fliers (a-la Drop-Troopers), give them some extra deep strike rules if ya wanna parachute in, but I will not play against a valkyrie, 2 vendettas, and 3 vultures at 1500. Feth.