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It'll be bought out by a large company, hopefully WOTC IMO... and then they will continue to make the game as best they can, with improvements to where they think it would be needed. Hopefully we can get some good fluff if that happens....

Orktavius wrote:
GW has absolutely ZERO interest in warhammer being a tournament game, they have never tried to be M:TG with mini's. It's Never....I repeat NEVER going to be a game meant for serious competitive play. GW is a company that sells models, the rules are a vehicle to sell models.

This game will NEVER be a game based on being truely competitive, it NEVER has and NEVER will be. If you want Warhammer to be a super tight/balance ruleset focused on competitive play you are in the wrong hobby and should perhaps look at M:TG for your competitive needs.

LOL Orktavius. You have NO idea what your rambling on about.

I will try and be nice, but seriously, you say NEVER has been and NEVER will be, but many of us that have models that are probably 10 years (or more) older than you remember when GW used to support competitive play. There used to be grand tournaments run by GW (not talking about the fail known as ardboyz) that drew players from all over the country. For several years in North America GW had the Outrider program and all these guys did was organize fantasy and wh40k tournaments, I played in many of them as I am sure hundreds of other people on this forum must have as well. GW even made and distributed a variety of trophies and plaques for winners of various categories.

This ridiculous stance that some of the knuckleheads in the design studio have adopted, that is blatantly anti-competitive has only been going on for a few years.

What you say NEVER will be has already COME TO PASS, years ago. Just look on the tournament subforum of this website. Dont tell us to look to MtG for how we want to play 40K and whfb, it makes you sound, shall I say politely, uninformed. GW fans travel from all over Europe and even a team from OZ participates in the ETC for whfb.

I defy you to defend your proposition that 40K and whfb cant be played competitively. It may not be a perfect system but there are hundreds of tournaments, maybe thousands played world wide every year. People show and play a contest with pre-agreed on rules and victory conditions. I will be very interested in how you can deny this is a competition.

LET US TAKE A LOOK BACK AT THE 4th edition rule book and quote from it (Page 259)

"One of the parts of the Warhammer 40,000 hobby are the tournaments which take place in most countries . . ."

"Some of the most prestigious tournaments are organised by Games Workshop, under the banner of the Grand Tournament."

"There are, however, countless other competitions run by not only our own staff but by other enthusiasts of the game. . ."

"In short, tournaments are about testing your mettle against others to see who is the cleverest tabletop general. . ."

"Tournaments are not for the fainthearted. . ." (LOL they are calling you fainthearted, dude.)

So then how do you reconcile NEVER HAS with "countless other competitions run by not only our own staff"

Seriously, Never say never even when telling someone to never say it, especially when you are only informed about the subject at a mediocre or poor level of understanding or experience.

 Flinty wrote:
30% of all sales are in the UK, therefore 70% of sales are not. They must understand something of international marketing...

Selling at all is not the same thing as selling effectively. Let's say that GW only sells in the UK and US. The US has 5x the population, so if we assume that GW is selling as effectively in the US as the UK we should see an 80/20 split in sales. But of course there's the rest of the world to consider, so it should be way more than 80% from outside the UK. The simple conclusion here is that GW is not selling effectively outside of their home country, and the only question is why not.

 TermiesInARaider wrote:

JWhex wrote:

Dawnofthedoug wrote:
So there's alot of rumors that gw is speeding up it's process to get ready to sell the company, if this actually happens what would this mean for 40k? Another company takes over the ip, it fades away?

Its a publicly traded company, its for sale all the time. If a group of investors wanted to buy enough stock to control the company, what they are buying in addition to the physical infrastructure is the IP! Why would they let the main thing (IP) fade away?

Not gonna lie, this is basically it. GW's product is the IP. Anyone who's looking to buy GW is going to be invested in the IP. If the IP is shifting hands, then we can hope that it'll go to someone who can better manage it, but I highly doubt it'll get shelved because GW get's bought out. That's like buying a car for the express purpose of not using the car.

Again: JJ-Trek. Just because an IP is acquired is no guarantee that it won't be twisted beyond all recognition, and there's no guarantee that a buyer wouldn't look at the IP and say "Hell's bells! I love that Matt Ward guy's writing, he really knows how to appeal to this company's stated primary market of young male teens, we should totally reboot the whole background in the style of the Grey Knights book!"

So I checked out some of the financial information on GW and Hasbro, the current owner of Wizards of the Coast.

I'm not an expert, and I have misunderstood.

Nothing to see here, move along

[Edited for incompetence]

 Flinty wrote:
So I checked out some of the financial information on GW and Hasbro, the current owner of Wizards of the Coast.

I'm not an expert, so I may have misunderstood something, but it appears that in 2011 financial year, all of Hasbro took in about $4m with profits of about 15%, or $600k.

By comparison, GW took revenue of £130m with a profit of about 13%, or £13m. From the financial training I've had at my work, apparently you need to have profits greater than 10% to be considered a proper going concern.

So, GW may not be making as much money per head of population in the US compared to the UK, however it is a UK company with most of its manufacturing facilities here, so it makes sense fr the UK to be the main market.

Based on thise numbers, this idea that Wizards of the Coast is some uber magical company that could come charging to the "rescue" and purchasing GW IP is patently ridiculous. If anything it would be GW buying WotC with their pocket change

If I am wrong in interpreting the figures, then obviously my opinion would change, but at this stage I don't think GW have anything to worry abiut quite yet.

http://investor.hasbro.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=646231

Hasbro's 2011 revenue was 4,29 billion US Dollars.

Teehee... d'oh. Never mind then

I hope Disney buys it, and then releases a cartoon starring Patrick Warburton as a Space Marine Captain. I would watch the hell out of that!

 Peregrine wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Even if those two games survived (Specialist games would obviously not even be considered, as even GW barely acknowledges them)

Or another, more sensible, company might recognize that abandoning your IP is stupid and put at least a token effort into making them into legitimate products.

any company heading up any new projects would likely cause us to look fondly upon the current days of "evil GW" with nostalgia, which is extremely sad.

Only if that company is stupid enough to throw out a valuable IP just for the sake of destroying it instead of leaving the good parts of the IP alone and concentrating on fixing GW's appallingly bad management problems.

No, they won't throw away a 25 year old IP, I rather think another company would probably just take things further down the same road that GW already has, where they just want you to come in, buy product off the shelves. It's a pessimistic view, but I think it's a realistic one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
The "problems" GW have, such as they are, also exist in the UK. How do you think NA and UK are different, in regards to how GW treats them?

Just to give an obvious example, they don't understand things like the population density difference and that having one store per state (in a random strip mall nobody goes to) is not a substitute for proper marketing.

Exactly. As far as i can tell, my state, Michigan, has a single GW store. It is south of Detroit. That is a three hour drive (one way) for me to visit a GW store.

It would certainly be interesting to see who exactly would buy it. Also if they would communicate better with the fanbase. My biggest concern is how a transition like that would be managed amongst all 3 games. Games Workshop has had some pretty damn good and exclusive rights with Lord of the Rings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Even if those two games survived (Specialist games would obviously not even be considered, as even GW barely acknowledges them)

Or another, more sensible, company might recognize that abandoning your IP is stupid and put at least a token effort into making them into legitimate products.

any company heading up any new projects would likely cause us to look fondly upon the current days of "evil GW" with nostalgia, which is extremely sad.

Only if that company is stupid enough to throw out a valuable IP just for the sake of destroying it instead of leaving the good parts of the IP alone and concentrating on fixing GW's appallingly bad management problems.

No, they won't throw away a 25 year old IP, I rather think another company would probably just take things further down the same road that GW already has, where they just want you to come in, buy product off the shelves. It's a pessimistic view, but I think it's a realistic one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
The "problems" GW have, such as they are, also exist in the UK. How do you think NA and UK are different, in regards to how GW treats them?

Just to give an obvious example, they don't understand things like the population density difference and that having one store per state (in a random strip mall nobody goes to) is not a substitute for proper marketing.

Exactly. As far as i can tell, my state, Michigan, has a single GW store. It is south of Detroit. That is a three hour drive (one way) for me to visit a GW store.

Also intersesting you should mention this as I have the exaxt same issue! All the GW stores were closed all around Michigan a few years ago, and the only one left is rather far. I just go to an independant retailer in Livonia, its about a 20 minute drive for me, the people are awesome and the 25% off never hurts.

GW going out of business would be a good thing for the gaming community. It would open up the market for companies that care about quality products (rules & mini's) and taking care of the customer base. PP & Corvus Belli are hot on the heels of GW and a GW implosion would send more customers to these game systems. This would be good. GW is the dinosaur in the room, they have outlived their relevance in the tabletop industry. It is time for them to step aside and let some fresh blood in. I have stopped being a GW fanboy and apologist, they are a terrible business model. Many independent retailers are actively guiding their customer base away from GW products. GW stores are not for gaming or gamers, they are stores with no interest in supporting the hobby. To all those who think 40K or WHFB is the end all to be all please do yourself a favor and get a demo of WM/H or Infinity, you may be surprised by the quality of the rule set and the fun level of those games. The only GW product I still support is Black Library publications, the fluff has always been my driving interest in GW, unfortunately they have made their games suck so bad that I have no interest in playing GW games anymore.

 Peregrine wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
What would likely happen is people would see how a company who REALLY is only interested in maximizing profit would do and warhammer as we know it would cease to exist.

In other words, you'd realize how good we have it as a game company.

Yeah, because other companies that are interested in maximizing profit don't make enjoyable games...

So why is GW the biggest company then? How come all these other companies that make enjoyable games not doing as good as GW then? If we go by this statement, it would look like making good games =/= making great profits.

I am wondering a few people are saying WotC to purchase the IP. Isn't WotC owned by Hasbro or by some other company? So in fact Hasbro or some other company would own the IP and maybe make it into toys like GI Joe and other stuff. Maybe make 40K into Magic or hero clix?

So Peregrine is correct, you will realize how great GW was when you start playing 40K figures or cards or 40 clix?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the comments a GW implosion would be good for the gaming community would be good is false. A lot of the GW sales right now, come from 8-16 year old kids parents. So if GW imploded, these 8-16 year olds would not know where to go.

A lot of us get our start in the hobby from GW. With no GW to get into the hobby with, then no new blood will know about the gaming community then. I am sure the gaming community needs GW so these kids will know what miniature gaming is, and when they get older, they will find out about the other games.

If they don't get into GW they will not know what miniature gaming is, and there for a lot of these kids will not know about the other systems then.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Exactly. As far as i can tell, my state, Michigan, has a single GW store. It is south of Detroit. That is a three hour drive (one way) for me to visit a GW store.

woah, wait seriously. the one over by Troy? I remember whent he Ypsilanti one shut down, but I was under the impression that there was one in a Mall, I think the Novi Mall iirc. Did that one go under too? Who is the last store standing in good ol michgan. I've been a bit out of touch since moving to Minneapolis!

The fluff of GW universes is great and it would be a shame to lose that, I don't think we would because someone would take it. The company itself is becoming increasingly toxic to the wider hobby with its aggressive and unpleasant behaviour. In itself, they are more and more abandoning what it is to be a games company, they don't run tournaments and they are gradually reducing facilities and support in stores. They are a toy shop, not a hobby shop.

They are incapable of making games. They've rereleased short runs of old games and one new game, Dreadfleet, which was a failure. They only have three games and there's no support in the magazine or website and they've even axed their Facebook page. More frequently we are seeing rules broken up across several publications forcing multiple purchases. The way that the Hobbit fellowship is only available in the main game box, but the complete rules are actually a seperate book (WTF??). That the rules for some fliers in 40k are only available in a seperate hardback that is awkward for retailers to stock.

Their legal bullying has just become ridiculous, their spree of C&Ds, pursuit of Chapterhouse and the stupidity that led to them trying to own the term Space Marine.

What do GW do exactly? People say they introduce people to the hobby, but all they want to do is sell a pile of stuff to noobs and give them a demo game. They don't want to expand the hobby, just create a high turn over of new customers to sell stuff to.

It's my belief that 'the hobby' can do well without GW trying to maintain a stranglehold over 'their' IP and all their other stupid policies trying to screw around independent stores. I'd like to see the IP in other hands because there are some great quality imaginative products out there. But they are from Forgeworld, Black Library, FFG. Not GW main.

Would it be so bad if Hasbro took GW? Really? The support for M:tG releases and tournaments puts GW to shame. When a MtG set is released there are events to get stuff a week early, to get one off promo cards, and win prizes. Their tournaments are amazing. When GW releases a new army they clamp down on preview material with their bizarre need for 'secrecy' and release it without any fanfare other than some articles/adverts in White Dwarf. They make no attempt at all to make releases a community event to generate excitement.

 akaean wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Exactly. As far as i can tell, my state, Michigan, has a single GW store. It is south of Detroit. That is a three hour drive (one way) for me to visit a GW store.

woah, wait seriously. the one over by Troy? I remember whent he Ypsilanti one shut down, but I was under the impression that there was one in a Mall, I think the Novi Mall iirc. Did that one go under too? Who is the last store standing in good ol michgan. I've been a bit out of touch since moving to Minneapolis!

The only one left is the one in Troy. Ypsilanti closed, Novi closed(closest store to me and regional managment but moved to Chicago sadly) great lakes closed, only Troy is left. It really sucks, but there is at least a retailer closer to me than that

First a celebration!! The wicked witch is dead!!

Then sadness that 40k might be no more. Hopefully their IP would be bought by a company that is not only interested in having a successful business but knows how to make a good game and cares about their customers.

 Ventus wrote:
First a celebration!! The wicked witch is dead!!

Then sadness that 40k might be no more. Hopefully their IP would be bought by a company that is not only interested in having a successful business but knows how to make a good game and cares about their customers.

Haha, I am thinking the same. Really I cant see any company dissolving one of the gaming giants into nothing.

Personally speaking, I hate that 40k does crap like release the BRB then a few months later they release another hardback for 33 dollars so I can continue to play, it's rediculous. Though I love 40k, I do not like hordes/warmachine so on. I think it comes down to personal preference. GW makes models and has rules to play with them, don't expect perfection. Take it as it is and you will enjoy it far more. I mean, I rarely even use the full rules, my friends and I play mainly house rule games. We use the BRB as a basis for more fun games that we come up with. If GW doesn't have a complete game in your mind, come up with the rest on your own. I have 2 BRB's the GW one and my personal rules.

 Rysgame wrote:
Personally speaking, I hate that 40k does crap like release the BRB then a few months later they release another hardback for 33 dollars so I can continue to play, it's rediculous. T

Are you talking about Codexes or what?

No, the Death From THe Skies thing

 Rysgame wrote:
No, the Death From THe Skies thing

Okay, so a couple things. One, DFTS is not required for play unless you have one of the flyers, in which case it is really a case of having to buy a codex and then get another codex 'a couple months later' which isn't true of any of the flyers in the book that actually needed the update (Orks, Space Marines). Two, it isn't hardback.

I was not aware of those things good Sir. Thank you for the information, Though I still have to say the idea behind it is kind of rediculous.

Warmachine becoames a 'mainstream' wargame, and each of the games GW do are sold on to more competent companies.

Then we hit the 42nd Millenium

IMO if GW were to go under, the best parts would be bought up and maintained.. 40K and WHFB. The hoped for part would be that they would totally separate the rules release from the miniatures = of course that would make great sense for the hobby but would eliminate the artificial sales... 6th edition and flyers come to mind as the latest issue. Or nerfing things in a new codex... Tyranids come to mind with the total screw of carnifex cost increase and the more subtle of making spine gaunts the wrong way to build them...
The delayed release of a new codex with new rules outdates armies tempting people to buy another one and the prospect of waiting 4 or more years for a replacement adds to that. We can also go through the sales of new codex with special rules that you want to go out and buy just to know if someone is pulling a fast one on you... Sadly sales-based motives are going to remain...

Now the one hopeful part would be communicating upcoming release schedules. Bad for this website with rumor threads. This is the one practice (of keeping things secret) that I hope would change. Allowing people to actually plan and save for purchases... What a novel concept!

 Peregrine wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
The "problems" GW have, such as they are, also exist in the UK. How do you think NA and UK are different, in regards to how GW treats them?

Just to give an obvious example, they don't understand things like the population density difference and that having one store per state (in a random strip mall nobody goes to) is not a substitute for proper marketing.

Fair point. A GW store in a city in England probably has the same reach as half a mid-western state in terms of population.

I think it would be a tragedy for GW to be snatched up by some conglomerate and made more approachable to the LCD. Also I don't think GW should listen to its fans as much as you all want. Fans don't know gak.

Their games are designed by another company and then we have at least a decent 40K game to play with...

It's not going to dissolve, with a $638 stock per share, there's no way in hell it will dissolve. It'll probably get bought up by some big company (no surprise there). And maintain minimal links to their fan base as they already do. look at other companies in a similar market, like Blizzard for example. It's become a power hungry, corporate machine that will find any way to squeeze an extra dollar here, and there. Sorry to break the unfortunate truth to you guys.