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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Ways to make him better? Put him on top of a Reaver Titan, maybe?

HAHAHA!

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

The Sanguinor has a 3++ and Eternal Warrior. You want 2 Eternal Warrior "champion" type characters in the same Codex? Not even Khârn has Eternal Warrior, remember?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

The Sanguinor has a 3++ and Eternal Warrior. You want 2 Eternal Warrior "champion" type characters in the same Codex? Not even Khârn has Eternal Warrior, remember?

I didn't say to give mephiston eternal warrior as part of that post, now did I?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, you have a good point about the Sanguinor. If either Mephiston or the Sangionor gets elevated to the level of those champions I mentioned, the other is going to need to be nerfed a fair amount.

But Sanguinor doesn't count, nobody plays him!
It's like a tree that falls in a forest.

 Phiasco II wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

The Sanguinor has a 3++ and Eternal Warrior. You want 2 Eternal Warrior "champion" type characters in the same Codex? Not even Khârn has Eternal Warrior, remember?

I didn't say to give mephiston eternal warrior as part of that post, now did I?

Then why mention Eternal Warrior at all?

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

Yeah but Mephiston is T6, S10 with Sword of Sanguinius (not to mention a jump pack power as well), 5 wounds, 5 attacks, I7, etc, etc, etc.

If anything, Mephiston is a tad overpriced, but he's still retardedly overpowered in his current incarnation. Drop basically everything by 1 or 2 and then we can look at making him an IC and me might be pushing 180-200pts.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

The Sanguinor has a 3++ and Eternal Warrior. You want 2 Eternal Warrior "champion" type characters in the same Codex? Not even Khârn has Eternal Warrior, remember?

I didn't say to give mephiston eternal warrior as part of that post, now did I?

Then why mention Eternal Warrior at all?

I mentioned Eternal Warrior because that is part of what makes Abbadon/Calgar/Logan/Draigo so good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

Yeah but Mephiston is T6, S10 with Sword of Sanguinius (not to mention a jump pack power as well), 5 wounds, 5 attacks, I7, etc, etc, etc.

If anything, Mephiston is a tad overpriced, but he's still retardedly overpowered in his current incarnation. Drop basically everything by 1 or 2 and then we can look at making him an IC and me might be pushing 180-200pts.

I don't see how he's considered overpowered when Abbadon or Calgar or Logan or Draigo are running amok. Unless you consider them all overpowered too, which is fair enough. Any of those characters would absolutely destroy Mephiston though.

As was stated before, Blood Angels do have a champion like Abbaddon and Marneus Calgar, he's the Sanguinor. Ever used him? Probably not. Ever played against him? You don't want to.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:As was stated before, Blood Angels do have a champion like Abbaddon and Marneus Calgar, he's the Sanguinor. Ever used him? Probably not. Ever played against him? You don't want to.

Phiasco II wrote:
Although, you have a good point about the Sanguinor. If either Mephiston or the Sangionor gets elevated to the level of those champions I mentioned, the other is going to need to be nerfed a fair amount.

Kangodo wrote:But Sanguinor doesn't count, nobody plays him!
It's like a tree that falls in a forest.

I've already addressed the Sanguinor issue by admitting that if either he or Mephiston got buffed, the other would need to take a step down. Furthermore, There is no way that the Sanguinor should be considered the same level of the afore mentioned champions. To be fair, all the he would need is independent character or even to be able to join Sanguinary guard. Then he would be right up their with the champions.

Could also give the Sanguinor an ap2 for his sword.

 Phiasco II wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

Yeah but Mephiston is T6, S10 with Sword of Sanguinius (not to mention a jump pack power as well), 5 wounds, 5 attacks, I7, etc, etc, etc.

If anything, Mephiston is a tad overpriced, but he's still retardedly overpowered in his current incarnation. Drop basically everything by 1 or 2 and then we can look at making him an IC and me might be pushing 180-200pts.

I don't see how he's considered overpowered when Abbadon or Calgar or Logan or Draigo are running amok. Unless you consider them all overpowered too, which is fair enough. Any of those characters would absolutely destroy Mephiston though.

Because Abaddon, Calgar, Logan and Draigo are not T6, S10, 5 wounds, etc, etc, etc... Regular units have a tough time vs those guys, but they're still not beyond the realm of reason. Mephiston basically has the best stats in the game for a single infantry model (how many other Marines have the stats and speed to just plain destroy a unit?. Ward gave Mephiston the capability to move faster than everyone else, have more wounds and attacks than everyone else, be harder to wound than everyone else and strike at a higher strength than anyone else. He's insane. Mephiston's problem currently is that he can't hurt Termies and that Ward gifted the rest of us by not giving him an invul save, making him vulnerable. If you want to make up for that lack of invul, something has to give because he's borderline broken as it is.

I'm not really pushing for Mephiston to be stronger in any particular way, but I would like to point out to everyone saying he is broken that he certainly isn't at the top of the game any more.

Mephiston is a beat stick, he does not buff your army in any way, he is there purely to kill things in assault. With WS7, S6, T6, W5, I7, A5, 2+, AP3 he is clearly very good at doing just that. However, if we compare him to Skarbrand at WS10, S6, T6, W5, I10, A6, 3+, AP2 we can see that Mephiston will lose that fight pretty much every time. Skarbrand costs 25 points less than Mephiston does.

Now, clearly this could be a case of Skarbrand being too powerful rather than Mephiston being too weak (I know, silly concept). Mephiston has advantages over Skarbrand in mobility and in being infantry, but the fact remains that there is a unit cheaper than Mephiston that will absolutely slaughter him at his own game, his own singular purpose. Make of that what you will.

Im confused why people thing that mepheston is still relevant in any way. Sure, he whacks gunline armies, but thats what BA need. The rest of BA fails vs 6th gunlines. He falls on his face vs 2+ saves and, without an inv, he doesnt last very long vs anything meant to kill terminators. He is WAY overcosted. Even in 5th he was mediocre. With AP2 that wouldnt change much of anything, he would still not be a great character.

Making him an IC makes him lose a lot of his character. You essentially lose T6 and would have to see a nerf due to the survivability of ICs in units. I would rather see him get either a psychic power or a one-turn 4+ inv save. If he got either, he would be competitive. As he is, even with AP2, he is forgettable.

 zephoid wrote:
Im confused why people thing that mepheston is still relevant in any way. Sure, he whacks gunline armies, but thats what BA need. The rest of BA fails vs 6th gunlines. He falls on his face vs 2+ saves and, without an inv, he doesnt last very long vs anything meant to kill terminators. He is WAY overcosted. Even in 5th he was mediocre. With AP2 that wouldnt change much of anything, he would still not be a great character.

Making him an IC makes him lose a lot of his character. You essentially lose T6 and would have to see a nerf due to the survivability of ICs in units. I would rather see him get either a psychic power or a one-turn 4+ inv save. If he got either, he would be competitive. As he is, even with AP2, he is forgettable.

Have to agree with this. I've seen Mephiston once in a competitive setting, and even the guy running him acknowledged he was not a serious-minded choice. Impressive statline or not, his huge point cost leaves Mephy dead on arrival. For what you pay, he should be either a Bloodthirster-level FMC or have some serious force-multiplying abilities (a la Draigo, Eldrad, Logan, Typhus, Skarbrand, etc.) Instead you get a substandard beatstick at an exorbitant cost. Big pass.

I see a lot of bizarre proposed rules here, so it's perplexing to me that so many people are treating the idea of improving Mephiston as an absurdity. It might be one of the most reasonable suggestions I've ever seen in this subforum.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:As was stated before, Blood Angels do have a champion like Abbaddon and Marneus Calgar, he's the Sanguinor. Ever used him? Probably not. Ever played against him? You don't want to.

Kangodo wrote:But Sanguinor doesn't count, nobody plays him!
It's like a tree that falls in a forest.

And I think that's a good thing. When big characters like Abbaddon or Calgar start appearing in 1500 point lists, the common name for said list is "cheese list". I've seen that first hand when someone ran Calgar, a bunch of mixed terminators, and two 5 man units of scouts in 1500 points; the player was my partner in a casual doubles game and we tabled two Tau players (this was pre-update).

zephoid wrote:Im confused why people thing that mepheston is still relevant in any way. Sure, he whacks gunline armies, but thats what BA need. The rest of BA fails vs 6th gunlines. He falls on his face vs 2+ saves and, without an inv, he doesnt last very long vs anything meant to kill terminators. He is WAY overcosted. Even in 5th he was mediocre. With AP2 that wouldnt change much of anything, he would still not be a great character.

Making him an IC makes him lose a lot of his character. You essentially lose T6 and would have to see a nerf due to the survivability of ICs in units. I would rather see him get either a psychic power or a one-turn 4+ inv save. If he got either, he would be competitive. As he is, even with AP2, he is forgettable.

whigwam wrote:Have to agree with this. I've seen Mephiston once in a competitive setting, and even the guy running him acknowledged he was not a serious-minded choice. Impressive statline or not, his huge point cost leaves Mephy dead on arrival. For what you pay, he should be either a Bloodthirster-level FMC or have some serious force-multiplying abilities (a la Draigo, Eldrad, Logan, Typhus, Skarbrand, etc.) Instead you get a substandard beatstick at an exorbitant cost. Big pass.

I see a lot of bizarre proposed rules here, so it's perplexing to me that so many people are treating the idea of improving Mephiston as an absurdity. It might be one of the most reasonable suggestions I've ever seen in this subforum.

Finally! people who don't just look at Mephiston's S6 T6 stat line and think the sky is falling.

want a fluffy rule :

Mephiston – If Mephiston defeats an enemy unit / model and ends combat he must make a leadership test with a -1 for each model that he has defeated in close combat. If he fails his leadership test Mephiston succumbs to the red thirst and drinks the blood of his enemies and regains 1 wound. He cannot move, shoot or run in his next turn but he will attack in close combat if assaulted. He regains control of himself the following turn. If assaulted in the enemies phase and successful he cannot make another leadership test as he is already bloodlusted.

For 250 pts, Mephiston is flat out bad in 6th edition.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
want a fluffy rule :

Mephiston – If Mephiston defeats an enemy unit / model and ends combat he must make a leadership test with a -1 for each model that he has defeated in close combat. If he fails his leadership test Mephiston succumbs to the red thirst and drinks the blood of his enemies and regains 1 wound. He cannot move, shoot or run in his next turn but he will attack in close combat if assaulted. He regains control of himself the following turn. If assaulted in the enemies phase and successful he cannot make another leadership test as he is already bloodlusted.

That actually doesn't fit Mephiston's fluff though. The whole concept behind his story is that he has such a dominating will that he could even overcome the Black Rage. So in fact, of all the BA named characters he's probably the one least likely to fall to the Red Thirst.

Hmmm... What if Mephiston just got the Smash rule? He would always be AP2, but can halve his attacks for STR10. This would be decent if you don't want to risk Peril'n or if you want that extra Warp Charge.

If this did happen, I'm pretty sure most people would switch Sword and UR for Biomancy. I know I would.

Lucarikx

 Orblivion wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
want a fluffy rule :

Mephiston – If Mephiston defeats an enemy unit / model and ends combat he must make a leadership test with a -1 for each model that he has defeated in close combat. If he fails his leadership test Mephiston succumbs to the red thirst and drinks the blood of his enemies and regains 1 wound. He cannot move, shoot or run in his next turn but he will attack in close combat if assaulted. He regains control of himself the following turn. If assaulted in the enemies phase and successful he cannot make another leadership test as he is already bloodlusted.

That actually doesn't fit Mephiston's fluff though. The whole concept behind his story is that he has such a dominating will that he could even overcome the Black Rage. So in fact, of all the BA named characters he's probably the one least likely to fall to the Red Thirst.

Funny, you're going to tell me about Mephiston's fluff, that rule is lifted (with one minor change) from the 2nd edition codex.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
want a fluffy rule :

Mephiston – If Mephiston defeats an enemy unit / model and ends combat he must make a leadership test with a -1 for each model that he has defeated in close combat. If he fails his leadership test Mephiston succumbs to the red thirst and drinks the blood of his enemies and regains 1 wound. He cannot move, shoot or run in his next turn but he will attack in close combat if assaulted. He regains control of himself the following turn. If assaulted in the enemies phase and successful he cannot make another leadership test as he is already bloodlusted.

That actually doesn't fit Mephiston's fluff though. The whole concept behind his story is that he has such a dominating will that he could even overcome the Black Rage. So in fact, of all the BA named characters he's probably the one least likely to fall to the Red Thirst.

Funny, you're going to tell me about Mephiston's fluff, that rule is lifted (with one minor change) from the 2nd edition codex.

Fluff changes, rules change to reflect that or vice versa. The rule does not fit the current iteration of Mephiston, simple as that. He doesn't even have the regular Red Thirst rule in the 5th edition codex.

Actually the Vanilla codex has more than one Eternal Warrior in it.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Actually the Vanilla codex has more than one Eternal Warrior in it.

Yes, but who takes Marneus Calgar, when Dorn incarnate is 65 points cheaper and better in every single way?

Okay, so he forces stubborn on everyone. So what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phiasco II wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Does the OP have any good reasons to believe he Mephiston needs fixing?

How about this reason: Chaos Space Marines have Abbadon, Vanilla Marines have Calgar, Space Wolves have Logan, and Grey Knights have Draigo. All of these characters have eternal warrior, iirc, and all of them have 2+ 4++ (3++ for Draigo) saves. All of them have crazy weapons (Calgars being the least unusual, although his shooting profile is ap2). All of them are independent characters. Why is it so foreign an idea that Blood Angels players would want a character that is in the same tier as these champions are? It makes sense.

Make Mephiston an independent character, and replace his preferred enemy psyker power with one that makes his attacks ap2, and his strengths 10 power with one that gives him a 4++ save till the end of the next turn, and I think he'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the other characters mentioned above.

He needs neither power. IF you throw Mephiston against the right targets (which is not that hard - most things don't want to get stuck into combat with him), he will do fine. Just because he struggles against sv 2+ is no reason to say that he NEEDS Independant character, AP2 or a 4++ invulnerable save (4++ is also a bit unreasonable. 5 or 6+ would be adequate, or simply a rule like It Will Not Die would suffice). He's toughness six for christ sake - only power fists can harm him, and they can't even do it well when he hits them for all his 3+ 2+ hits, usually ignoring armour (again, if you throw him against anything with 2+ save, you either don't have enough targets, meaning that mephiston's job is done, or you're playing the game wrong.)

You do realise that preferred enemy will ruin most opponents in challenges, right?

Also, Sanguinor Glaive encarmines should be AP2 as a rule rather than Master crafted.

Meph can wreck a chaos army on his own

Must always challenge means that unless Abaddon is in the squad, I'm forced to feed him every character I've got in that squad with no chance of ever even wounding him.

And he can fly. He's never str 6 (cos everyone keeps his codex powers and this effectively makes him permanently str 10)

The only thing that he needs to be worried about in the whole army is a flying dp with the murder sword. Anyone else either can't hurt him or won't catch him.
I7, str10, Jump pack, Instant Death does not a nice character make.

I've seen him singlehandly kill every piece of heavy support on the table in a 4k game. He got into the backline and wrecked every vehicle they had, while munching down the men around them like a dry twix.

I would love to have him in my chaos 'dex. Even at 250pts.

Edit: The sanguinor - great rules, shame about the model/fluff. So use Dante as a counts as. You get your chapter master flying about with eternal warrior and a 3++

Q)If you use Dante as a 'counts as' sanguinor, as he has an axe, not a sword and glaive encarmines can be either, is it then naughty to use the sanguinors rules but change his weapon for an axe to go for ap2?

PredaKhaine wrote:

Q)If you use Dante as a 'counts as' sanguinor, as he has an axe, not a sword and glaive encarmines can be either, is it then naughty to use the sanguinors rules but change his weapon for an axe to go for ap2?

Naughty but silly.

Glaive encarmines can be axes though, so yes it is possible. That is one way to run dante, although dante has an inferno pistol that the Sanguinor doesn't (it's on his model)

Also, I like the Sanguinor model. no idea what you're talking about there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Also, I like the Sanguinor model. no idea what you're talking about there.

Lol - he looks like a statue

250 points is too much for a guy that isn't eternal warrior and can't pen 2+ armor and can't buff my army. Period. Give him rending, and he least becomes arguably worth 150 points.

As he is now, he's bad. A 250 point beat stick shouldn't have to avoid an entire classification of armor in the game. Demon princes much cheaper than him straight up ignore the 2+ save. It's a joke.

You're also looking at not having any of the force multiplier powers from regular libbies in your list in exchange for a flawed beat stick. Another reason he's bad. Even if he were good, he might still be bad from lack of force multiplier compared to regular libbies.