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Davor wrote:
Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

So if I want to try an army to proxy against my brother to see if I like them (take them as allies, then buy the codex) or get better at playing them, I am supposed to pop 50 bucks first for one game?

 Ozomoto wrote:

Davor wrote:
Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

So if I want to try an army to proxy against my brother to see if I like them (take them as allies, then buy the codex) or get better at playing them, I am supposed to pop 50 bucks first for one game?

Or borrow the codex from someone else.

Davor wrote:
Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

Once 3d printers are more affordable to the common man... yes. You will see alot of "stolen" minis.

 TheCaptain wrote:
So if I want to try an army to proxy against my brother to see if I like them (take them as allies, then buy the codex) or get better at playing them, I am supposed to pop 50 bucks first for one game?

Or borrow the codex from someone else.

Or, walk into a shop and ask if you can have a flick through their copy, perhaps even run a small game while you're there. I can imagine most owners being ok with this if it's not too busy, as they may well be able to sell a Codex and models out of it.

I understand it's an unfortunate situation to be in where it looks like you have to "buy before you try", but look at it from a business point of view. Let's say you walk into an unnamed fast food McRestaurant and ask for some free fries to try out before you purchase a meal. Would you expect to get those fries?
In what way could Codex rules be made available to you at home, where they couldn't be abused into you having the rules permanently for free?

Back to the original topic, regarding rules queries and the like here... there are circumstances where it's perfectly understandable. Say you had a game against a Codex you don't own and want to make sure you weren't cheated - that's fair enough. It's also perfectly fine to ask for help on a rule you've read, but don't fully comprehend.
Then there are cases where it's clear the person hasn't actually read the rule or - *gasp* - even have the book. There's no harm in asking in general, BUT here on Dakka we have rules to stop the site from being targeted by a lawsuit so we need to abide by them. If the poster can't take the time to check forum rules or ignores them anyway, then screw 'em.

I do try to put page numbers and so on down where I have it to hand, but (and I know I'm not the only one here) sometimes I post from work so I don't have access to the books. So it's not always possible to refer the person asking the question to the right place.

If those fries cost me 17+ dollars, I probably wouldn't want to buy them anyway.

They'd have to be pretty damn good fries.

[Obligatory comment about finely crafted fries with bites already taken out of them when they arrive]

Furyou Miko wrote:I'm a thief. ^^

No, not really. I actually own physical copies of almost everything I've downloaded.

I don't see anything wrong with that, really. I do the same. A little "try before you buy" within reason isn't a big deal to me, either. But I always make sure I pay for the products I like and use.

gmaleron wrote:
The real thiefs are GW and their ridiculous prices for their books and products, I say its just getting even, good job on him for being smart and bypassing a system that is cheating players like you and me everyday.

Are you 16 years old? I hope so. I hope you grow out of this point of view or I see a career in petty thievery and welfare fraud for you. No one OWES you inexpensive plastic toy soldiers. No one owes you anything at all. The sooner you figure that out, the more prosperous you will be.

DeffDred wrote:
Yeah but I have every single codex, White Dwarf article, Imperial Armour, FFG, Black Library (art related only) and rulebook from every edition.

That would all cost a pretty penny.

Also got all the Warmahordes rules too.

I'm frankly shocked that you seem so proud of your theft. Would you brag about walking into a video game store and lifting $1,000 worth of games? My guess is you would be rather ashamed. I hope so, anyway.

Davor wrote:Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

Agreed. Especially with a luxury product like this. Can't afford it? Work harder and make more money, then. Or don't play. No right to steal these products.

 kronk wrote:
They're like pokimons or yu-gi-o or VDs. Gotta collect em all!

Well said good sir... though id prefer the Digi codices for the armies i dont play

 jah-joshua wrote:
i don't even play the game, but i've bought pretty much every book GW has published for the last 25 years...
i love the stories, images, and painted minis...
i want the artists who create worlds i enjoy to stay employed, so i do my little bit...

this is why i don't pirate anything...
not because i think it's wrong (personally, i don't judge what someone else chooses to do), but because it's my way of showing my appreciation for the artists...

cheers
jah

This is similar to my story of how i became a wargamer/collector. though offically started in 1997 (first gw "citadel kit"), and worked my way backward and forwards. 40k- 2nd-6th/fantasy 1st-now. though to be honest i will not be buying all the codex's for 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i don't even play the game, but i've bought pretty much every book GW has published for the last 25 years...
i love the stories, images, and painted minis...
i want the artists who create worlds i enjoy to stay employed, so i do my little bit...

this is why i don't pirate anything...
not because i think it's wrong (personally, i don't judge what someone else chooses to do), but because it's my way of showing my appreciation for the artists...

cheers
jah

This is similar to my story of how i became a wargamer/collector. though offically started in 1997 (first gw "citadel kit"), and worked my way backward and forwards. 40k- 2nd-6th/fantasy 1st-now. though to be honest i will not be buying all the codex's for 6th.

to clarify first citadel kit i bought. which was 2nd edition 40k boxed game and warhammer fantasy 3rd edition- fantasy was from a friend. i wasn't too shocked by having to buy new rulebooks and armybooks or codice's. it only became a downer when have to rinse repeat every several years for whatever reasons/reasoning you can apply.

Downloading codieces for an army you don't play is not the same caliber of bad as downloading ones for the armies you play. As far as I understand it the ridiculous price is because the codex gives you the right to actualy use the rules and play the army. The books are insanely priced if you look at them as just something to read, pirating them is not ok just because of that ofc but I find buying your main codieces and downloading the rest a healthy middleground.

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:

gmaleron wrote:
The real thiefs are GW and their ridiculous prices for their books and products, I say its just getting even, good job on him for being smart and bypassing a system that is cheating players like you and me everyday.

Are you 16 years old? I hope so. I hope you grow out of this point of view or I see a career in petty thievery and welfare fraud for you. No one OWES you inexpensive plastic toy soldiers. No one owes you anything at all. The sooner you figure that out, the more prosperous you will be.

If you really want to throw such arguments around, I find your black and white consumer ethics more 16 year old esque than his statement tbh.

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
Yeah but I have every single codex, White Dwarf article, Imperial Armour, FFG, Black Library (art related only) and rulebook from every edition.

That would all cost a pretty penny.

Also got all the Warmahordes rules too.

I'm frankly shocked that you seem so proud of your theft. Would you brag about walking into a video game store and lifting $1,000 worth of games? My guess is you would be rather ashamed. I hope so, anyway.

More comparable would be pirating 1000$ worth of games, which I for example did for sure. Nothing to brag about but also nothing to beat myself over about. I pay for the ones I finish or dig a lot, quite often I buy a game at full price despite the fact I will not be playing it for next half a year just to support the developer (Paradox, Relic, Creative Assembly, Eagle Dynamics, Bohemia Interactive etc). Same time I see nothing wrong in pirating when you have limited funds and wouldn't buy the title anyway.

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:

Davor wrote:Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

Agreed. Especially with a luxury product like this. Can't afford it? Work harder and make more money, then. Or don't play. No right to steal these products.

So stealing minis is stealing now as well? Get a life.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:


Are you saying that you torrent these PDFs or otherwise obtain them illegally?

If so, you are a thief. Plain and simple. It's not the "only way you can". Sorry. Not buying. You can tell yourself that all you want if it makes you feel better about being a thief, though.

Whatever. I am not judging you. But it galls me when people on this forum try to justify criminal activity with the flimsiest of excuses. Just come right out and say you are a thief.

The real thiefs are GW and their ridiculous prices for their books and products, I say its just getting even, good job on him for being smart and bypassing a system that is cheating players like you and me everyday.

So GW forced you to play?

Entitlement complex for the loss there.

LOL at the rationalizations for stealing in some these posts. Clearly some people in this thread fail at philosophy and ethics but succeed with moral ambiguity.

They are your future government leaders.

Rustgob wrote:
I download a PDF of a Codex to see if the army will do the kind of things I want; if I want to use it, read the fluff OR genuinely like the book, I will buy the codex.

I have a codex for everything but; Nids, GK, WitchHunters (lol), Space Wolves and Black Templar.

Rest assured; if I ever pursue the army, I will be buying the 'dex. Can't beat having the book in your hands.

I'm the same way. I have a .pdf of the BRB, but will have a copy of the mini one to take with me. Even with the codex and applicable FAQ's, there are still questions, but I suppose that's different than the OP's question. I guess I'd just try to answer them as simply as I can and politely suggest they get a codex and read the FAQ's, then come back with questions. I see so much condescension and at times even douche-ish responses. I don't understand it. Thankfully the respectful, helpful answers and responses are FAR more common. Still, I understand the annoyance of someone asking to be told the rules because they just don't care to read, rather than for clarification. I also agree that cost isn't an excuse. The things cost what they cost, just because it's not especially inexpensive doesn't mean it's a ripoff either. We all know what we're getting into, or figure it out at some point, when we start this hobby. That's the way it is. Besides, what fun is it to play if you have to stop to find someone that knows the rules for you?

There is t much excuse yes. I know it's taboo to say, but the rule books and codecs are all just about online these days on any torrent/download site. And no, I'm not saying I upload or distribute such things. However the price are so bad that I can you dear stand why someone good.

Though I guess a GW store wouldn't like you using such things. The good news is the stores are phasing out gaming. This is great news!

Granted, I'm no vet, and maybe my local GW is the exception, but they encourage, rather enthusiastically, people to come in and play. Even before I had my codex and BRB. They've also gotten to know the players that are vets, and do nothing to favor noobs over them. I can't imagine them phasing out allowing people to use their product like that. Especially with the advertising and up-selling opportunities. Sounds like more paranoia to be honest.

 BryllCream wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
NEVER!!!

I like owning ALL the books. Which is as much money as a downpayment on a house.

No it's not. It'd be like £200...for a full set of high quality rulebooks. I don't know how much rulesets for other companies cost but I'd bet it's comparable.

Having said that I don't actually own any codexes. I don't have the time/money at the moment. Hopefully I a few weeks I simply won't have the time

Don't even bother with that. You'll be collecting the last book and then you'll need the newer edition of the first one you collected. Maybe in 5-7 years time. Then, if you by chance get to buy rulesets and army/campaign books from other companies, you'll find that there are worse ones in terms of production values, while certainly there are better ones, but that (almost) all those are better in terms of price/quality relationship. You will find then that GW aren't really high quality rulebooks, but just high production values works. As rulebooks, you'll see that GW ones are in fact lousy bad ones, specially if you take into account it's been 6 (six!) editions of 40K and there are usually still lots of things to fix and all that. You'll see that it sums up to well past 200 pounds for mediocre rules and army books which will be quickly FAQed and then quickly outdated. Compare it with Sam Mustafa's Maurice or Lasalle; Hail Caesar, Black Powder and its supplements by people as Jervis Johnson, Rick Priestley, John Stallard or the Pery twins; or Gruntz for example. Better rules, better prices, alike production values.

I once collected avery book I could both in 40K and Fantasy. The moment I realized I had to recommence the whole of it getting almost the same with a little twist, I drop it. No I won't be annoyed by anybody not buying that brb and any codex, or outright downloading one or all of them. I'll help 'em all I can, I'll let myself be helped in everything a kind playing mate can, and screw the ones who won't help their friends and mates. Next time they want to play naps or samurai or wars of the Roses because the minis look damn beautiful and the rules are damn well written and the battles look and play damn right, proper and splendid, they'll get what they deserved: much help, advise and information if they are worth it, or a funny look and the same as the others after they acknowledge that you get what you give and some generosity is good for your karma.

Pirating digital information = stealing is the thought 'round here, huh?

I'll have to keep this in mind if I ever intend to troll this forum.

I think that more blame rests in the hands of the person who uploaded the PDF of a codex to the 'net, rather than one who uses it.

As poor as I am, I can't afford to buy every codex just to -see- if I can -maybe- build the army I want to build. This is where PDFs are used.

However, if I intend to USE the codex to build armies and play the game, then I know what I need to buy later.

As I said earlier; Try before you buy, have PDFs of opponents codex and where possible; buy the books you LIKE.

Davor wrote:
Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

- Edited by insaniak. This is not appropriate on this forum -

 Ozomoto wrote:

Davor wrote:
Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

So if I want to try an army to proxy against my brother to see if I like them (take them as allies, then buy the codex) or get better at playing them, I am supposed to pop 50 bucks first for one game?

No nothing wrong with that, but people are not saying, they are trying it out, but out right crying about the price. So what about the people who "download" the BRB, the main rules, and don't buy it, but play 6th edition, with a downloaded pdf? Is that ok? They are not "trying it out" but actually not bothering to buy it, but still use it for the next 4 years, is that ok?

Someone mentioned, 3D printers. I didn't know they were coming so soon. Could be a reason why the price increases as of late. Get as much they can before people start using these 3D printers.

Trolling, nobody with an attitude like this could hold down a job that pays 48k a year.

Unless he's on benefits...

As for piracy, a lot of people do it, that doesn't make it right, it just makes it common.

Crowing about it on the Internet to strangers just isn't cool though.

Maybe he is one of those bankers us tax payers pay bonuses for F*&king up the world - it woud fit but earns too little.

It does sound all a little made up tbh

 DeffDred wrote:

Davor wrote:
Tired of people saying the hobby is too expensive. It's not an excuse. So what is next then? Stealing minis then? They are way more over costed than the codicies.

While GW is expensive, it's not an excuse to say it's ok to steal.

Once 3d printers are more affordable to the common man... yes. You will see alot of "stolen" minis.

I'd be surprised if GW is still alive by the time that happens. 3D printers that actually print good models (like the ones Blizzard offers based on your WoW character) are obscenely huge and expensive. I think they'd spend more money to steal than they would to just buy lol (though it would save on painting times....)

Well that escalated quickly...

I think the baseline is to own whatever you use in a game, so own your codex and at least have ready access to the BRB. I also agree that downloading PDFs that you don't own a hard copy of is stealing, and I wouldn't have a problem telling someone that if I met them.

On the subject of 3D printers though...
No. No. Absolutely not. Most 3D printers cannot and will not be able to reproduce the same level of detail on even basic plastic models. They are just too small. If a printer is capable of that level of detail, it's going to be very expensive. That, and it's also stealing.

Yea the cost required for that kind of a printer...i'd rather make molds of my bits and make them out of random material #4 i can get my hands on, paint them well, and not let anyone pick'm up so they dont notice a weight difference.

Pretty sure people do that, i just find it dishonest and too much work (and not much cheaper) lol

 azreal13 wrote:
Trolling, nobody with an attitude like this could hold down a job that pays 48k a year.

Unless he's on benefits...

As for piracy, a lot of people do it, that doesn't make it right, it just makes it common.

Crowing about it on the Internet to strangers just isn't cool though.

Im a self employed carpenter not a banker 48k a year is sod all nowa days especially in rip off britan.

 Sebbyp538 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Trolling, nobody with an attitude like this could hold down a job that pays 48k a year.

Unless he's on benefits...

As for piracy, a lot of people do it, that doesn't make it right, it just makes it common.

Crowing about it on the Internet to strangers just isn't cool though.

Im a self employed carpenter not a banker 48k a year is sod all nowa days especially in rip off britan.

You're a self employed tradesman who boasts gleefully about how you mislead people to obtain goods by deception (which is an offence under law?)

I've tried to draft replies but they all sail too close to breaking rule 1, so I'll just leave it as..

Karma's a bitch.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Ok, this post may end up being more of a rant, but:
One thing that annoys me to no end is reading posts by people who obviously do not own a rulebook. In the same vein, I have encountered people who have downloaded an incorrect (read: old) version of their codex and are mystified by the advice that they are given. I understand it's an expensive hobby, but I feel that a baseline for playing should be to buy your own codex and at least have access to a rulebook (3 friends sharing one I can understand).

Has this been an issue for anyone else? Also, how would you approach someone who doesn't follow this principle if you encountered them in a game?

As having been that guy, I humbly apologize for it. I now know EXACTLY how annoying it can be.

Agree with the OP about getting your own codex and BRB (or sharing it in a group). I've never really felt inclined to get all the other codices but do have a couple... in digital copy. Yeah I'll admit its piracy and I'd prefer not to do it. But my 5th ed C:SM was 63NZD which was pushing it at the time and now the new hard backs are all $98 a pop. So thats put them way far out for me and a lot of friends in my group. It works out way cheaper to pay for shipping and get it from the US, which is what I'll do when either orks or marines are released again.

But I do think its unfair to say you cant use pdf's at all and if you can't afford the rulebook... dont play. I mean if they've already paid heaps for the models, then I would disagree with anyone I saw refusing to play them on the basis their codex isn't authentic. (and don't say the cost of the codex is inconsequential to the whole army...)