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So I've been using Dark Eldar against Eldar for couple of games now, and I find that there's absolutely no way to deal with things that are >48".

My opponent fielded:
2 Fireprisms
1 Aegis w/ Firedragon Exarch, so all my cover saves were useless...
and 36" guns.
and a lot of Wave serpants.

So how would I be able to deal with a list like this?
I know AV12 is very effective against us since we aren't doing anything to them.
On top of that he had Eldrad and a Farseer Fortuning most vehicles so they get rerolls behind an Aegis.

I brought a list composed of 50% Splinter and 50% Dark Lances with about 17-18 Lances.
He killed a Ravanger the first turn with the Quad gun, and my trueborn and Raiders just couldn't outrange them without running into the Eldar Waveserpants which had like 8 S6 shots...

So how would you deal with them?

Quit letting them play the table longways, rofl

Umm, you should be in his face turn 1. Night shields are your friend so are cover and jink saves.

Exactly Wingeds, except they're clearly making him run down the entire length of the table. Make him play a scenario that deploys down the sides of the table instead of at the ends. He's cheating you. My god, if you ever play against tau on a long table you are going to cry about how broken they are if you let them choose a mission. DE can easily be in their face on turn one. Even more fun, bring an archon with a webway portal and deploy ASAP and churn units straight into their deployment area. It's brutal.

DE is a very fast and mobile army... how are you having trouble getting up close & personal with your opponent when you can deploy 36" away from his table edge?

flat out your haywyches and use cover. i have been having success with scourges with heat lances. my buddy plays almost the xact same list you are describing. long deployment sucks against them. always go for the strategic night fighting traight too.

Munga wrote:
Exactly Wingeds, except they're clearly making him run down the entire length of the table. Make him play a scenario that deploys down the sides of the table instead of at the ends. He's cheating you. My god, if you ever play against tau on a long table you are going to cry about how broken they are if you let them choose a mission. DE can easily be in their face on turn one. Even more fun, bring an archon with a webway portal and deploy ASAP and churn units straight into their deployment area. It's brutal.

Lol, i'm that eldar player and in no way am i cheating him. We do this crazy thing where we roll to see what deployment is and then we deploy on the table in that fashion, YMMV.

Also I wasn't getting cover from the defense live, I was just moving my fast skimmers, and sometimes turbo boosting them since with night shields most of my weapon ranges were 18". I do agree that trying to out shoot mechdar probably won't work since my av is higher, and my shots tend to come in large groups instead of single shots with lances. Mechdar tends to suffer when it comes to melee, so the option of turbo boosting some wyches into my deployment zone right off the bat could produce results. The only problem is that with the amount of shooting I can do at short range the raiders/venoms probably wouldn't last long, and from what I can remember from wyches, they don't tend to stand up to shooting to well either.

I can post my list is that will help with some strategies.

Munga wrote:
Exactly Wingeds, except they're clearly making him run down the entire length of the table. Make him play a scenario that deploys down the sides of the table instead of at the ends. He's cheating you. My god, if you ever play against tau on a long table you are going to cry about how broken they are if you let them choose a mission. DE can easily be in their face on turn one. Even more fun, bring an archon with a webway portal and deploy ASAP and churn units straight into their deployment area. It's brutal.

Yeah, like what Rythem said he didn't cheat at all it was just that the roll was Hammer and Anvil, and with a 60"/48" gun and a Wave serpant wall makes it close to impossible to reach.
Let's keep this on how to improve my skills and list building instead of pointing fingers around if possible

I do admit that I might have not had enough Lances for that army but with 3 heavy slots, we're at most getting around 6-8 Dark Lances that we can rely on. ( 2 Ravanger + Void Raven/Razorwing)
Raiders are good and all but to make sure the guys inside do something as well means that I have to move into someone else's range as well,

Wyches don't seem to be able to make it that far before the Venom/Raider blows up and ends up killing half the squad...

Also, he had Eldrad as well which allowed him to redeploy before the game started so there was no positioning advantage there at all for me at least.

Also, Haywire wyches are not a unit that belongs to a take all comers list.

I want something that would be able to deal with that and be take all comers.


Anyway, more comments on how to deal with it would be great, instead of just saying that we can get close to them and kill them.
It's actually not as easy as it seems.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rythem wrote:

Munga wrote:
Exactly Wingeds, except they're clearly making him run down the entire length of the table. Make him play a scenario that deploys down the sides of the table instead of at the ends. He's cheating you. My god, if you ever play against tau on a long table you are going to cry about how broken they are if you let them choose a mission. DE can easily be in their face on turn one. Even more fun, bring an archon with a webway portal and deploy ASAP and churn units straight into their deployment area. It's brutal.

Lol, i'm that eldar player and in no way am i cheating him. We do this crazy thing where we roll to see what deployment is and then we deploy on the table in that fashion, YMMV.

Also I wasn't getting cover from the defense live, I was just moving my fast skimmers, and sometimes turbo boosting them since with night shields most of my weapon ranges were 18". I do agree that trying to out shoot mechdar probably won't work since my av is higher, and my shots tend to come in large groups instead of single shots with lances. Mechdar tends to suffer when it comes to melee, so the option of turbo boosting some wyches into my deployment zone right off the bat could produce results. The only problem is that with the amount of shooting I can do at short range the raiders/venoms probably wouldn't last long, and from what I can remember from wyches, they don't tend to stand up to shooting to well either.

I can post my list is that will help with some strategies.

Yeah I think I was thinking of your War Walkers, and with 3 Dark Lance Shots shooting into a 4+ rerollable is just like no~

Um... How is it impossible to match range... You start 24" apart, move 12" with the Ravager and bang! Instantly in range up to his board edge!

 Massaen wrote:
Um... How is it impossible to match range... You start 24" apart, move 12" with the Ravager and bang! Instantly in range up to his board edge!

If I do that then I'll be open turn 1 and everything will get shot down.

I don't even have a good chance of shooting him down,
3 Shots
2 Hits
0.333 Glances, 0.667 Pens.
0.222 Blows up in 1 shot which is what we normally rely on.

5+ Jink Save:
0.148 Actual 1 Shot blowups.
with Fortune on:
0.123 1 shot blowups

Keep in mind that we can never deploy on the line unless the terrain is 100% suitable, considering that against his Fireprisms there's nothing we can really do to hurt it, and it's almost very liikely to wreck one of our vehicles every turn with guide on or on hit.
And all their guns on vehicles are S6 which means that everything can pen us pretty well, and most guns they have are twin-linked meaning that they'll hit most of the time too.

The other option is him shooting you before you shoot him... Better to alpha strike with dark eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What points are you playing? Would love to see his list

What do your boards look like? There should be at least 1-3 LoS blocking terrain on the board that you can start your paper planes behind.

Also do not forget that the quad gun can be shot at and killed (T7 W2) it is not that tough to shoot the gun away and suddenly you have the same range as him.

Additionally where did he keep eldrad? If he does not "bunker" him enough eldrad is not that tough in and off himself.

My general plan would look like this;
-Kill the quad gun. (1 3 dark lance yacht should do it, if he places the warwalkers wrong then you will have more options)
-Kill warwalkers in range, I would just outright charge him into range of my guns, all the guns I can. Try to maneuver so that you outnumber him in the local range. He will probably be deployed out along the line to get cover saves but deny you saves in return. If you have blast weapons it would help but you will need allies for that. Your splinter and lances should let you shred most of his warwalkers if he deployed them at the beginning. If not you will have to either rush him on one side and hope or hit him in the center as hard as you can (again are you playing with enough terrain?)

-The quad gun and warwalkers seem like the real threats to you in that list. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Is there any specific reason you are not bringing blasters?

@Rythem
That would be helpful. Pls change the list a bit afterwords as it needs to remain fresh and challenging, right.

If a bit of overview on what happened in the battle would be given more specific tactics could be figured out.

What are your actual lists?

I've had the same problem, except it was because i was dumb and left everything in the open. If you don't terrain properly, you stand a great chance of losing several hundred points right off the bat. Turn 1 can be a HUGE deal if you don't deploy both terrain and your units correctly.

The eldar list i used was:

Eldrad
Farseer, guide, fortune, spirit stones, ROW

6x fire dragons
exarch, tank hunters, crack shot
Wave Serpent, shuriken cannon, TW shuriken cannon

10x Dire Avengers
exarch, bladestorm, 2 Avenger SC
Wave Serpent, shuriken cannon, TW shuriken cannon

10x Dire Avengers
exarch, bladestorm, 2 Avenger SC
Wave Serpent, shuriken cannon, TW shuriken cannon

10x Guardians, Bright Lance
Warlock, Embolden

8x Warp Spiders
Exarch, 2x Death Spinnder

Vyper, 2x Shuriken Cannon

Fire Prism

Fire Prism

3x Warwalkers, 6 Scatter Lasers

Aegis Defense Line, Quad-Gun

1999

I am both the Dark Eldar and Eldar in my group, so I have never played against Eldar.

However, My experience playing Dark Eldar against long range shooting lists (Templar missile spam and IG) is that the key is positioning. Dark Eldar win by fighting a portion of his army against all of itself. Deployment and the 1st turn of movement will win or lose the game for you (and how many 5+ you can roll). The advice so far has been to use cover, and that is truly vital in this situation. Use your raiders to block LOS to your ravagers. Against tau I wouldn't take a razorwing, possibly a voidraven for the str 9, but you want as much armor 10 to saturate. Keep in mind that even if he has armor 12, you only need 3 damage results, glances or pens. I tend to get more kills through wrecks that outright explosions. Hope that helps!

Right off the bat sight unseen I am gonna assume this DE player has a weak list, no offense but that eldar list isn't close to optimized (it happens to have a comp that seems dangerous to a poorly-constructed DE list which makes me think it's tailored like a boss but you can play around that) and is extremely light on stuff that can actually capture for a 2k list so if it's curbstomping the DE player like he says then there's probably a serious issue with what he's putting on the table. Add this to the fact that his problem is with ''super long-range stuff'' (a term that indicates a serious lack of familiarity with the game, not so much a problem with things that can fire 48+ inches) and I think we've narrowed this down to the obvious "Bring a much better list and figure out how to use it" - if we can see what his list exactly is we'll have a better time tuning it.

You're Dark Eldar....your vehicles move 12" and then they have 36" Dark Lances (usually ALOT of them).....maybe you need to just redo your list because you should have no problem with range.

Dark Eldar:
HQ:
1 Haemie w/ Liquifier Gun - 60

Elites
3 Trueborn w/ 1 Blaster, 2 Splinter Cannons // Venom w/ Splinter Cannon, Nightshields - 146
3 Trueborn w/ 1 Blaster, 2 Splinter Cannons // Venom w/ Splinter Cannon, Nightshields - 146
3 Trueborn w/ 1 Blaster, 2 Splinter Cannons // Venom w/ Splinter Cannon, Nightshields - 146

Troops
10 Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon // Raider w/ Nightshield, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks - 180
10 Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon // Raider w/ Nightshield, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks - 180
10 Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon // Raider w/ Nightshield, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks - 180
10 Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon // Raider w/ Nightshield, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks - 180

Heavy:
Ravager w/ Nightshield - 115
Ravager w/ Nightshield - 115
Void Raven w/ 2 Implosion missles, Flickerfield, 2 NecroToxin Missle - 235

Eldar Branch -- 275 points
HQ:
Farseer w/ Runes of Warding, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stone - 155

Troops:
5 Pathfinders -- 120

I do admit that I might want to give the blasterborn another try but they function so horribly by needing to get to within 18" is devastating.

A couple criticisms -

Your Trueborn loadout is awkward, either ditch the blasters for more splinter fire or go full-on blasterboats and just do everything you can to bring down the serpents that have troops in them.

Raiders w/ splinter racks are a trap unit, you're going to be better off just taking more raw bodies and hanging out in cover, or not taking the raiders at all and using the 80 points for something more effective. You've spent 320 points on a support system for twin linking splinter shots, better off just taking 32 more warriors if you want to shoot poison that much or finding a way to squeeze more lances out of the list.

Nightshields aren't worth it.

If you're taking a Voidraven you're better off leaving it bare, if you want to shoot missiles take a barebones razorwing (and stick to the monoscythes) - your current VRB is paying 90 points (sweet christ 90 points) to target mix away it's lances and suck at it.

If you turn the 5 pathfinders into 3 eldar jetbikes you can turn the farseer into Eldrad, but your list doesn't really need eldrad because he's normally only taken to spam for invis on some sort of deathstar. If you want psychic defense cheap that badly in your list you would just do a bargain basement seer w/ runes of warding, Estorm cause he has to buy a spell and that's the cheapest to swap to prescience, and nothing else, and that brings him from 155 to 75.

If you just took what you had, with barebones stock raiders, dropped all the nightshields (seriously they suck) dropped the random blasters in the TB, turned your VRB into a barebones razorwing, and trimmed your eldar down to basement objective grabbing + psychic defense, you gain 399 points with no appreciable loss in effectiveness. If you drop your raiders altogether, which I would recommend as they aren't really doing anything for you, that number goes up to 639 points, with again no real loss in power for your list - those points simply aren't being spent effectively.


As for tactics, if you're going to keep the same general style of list you have now, you really just need 3 ravagers or 3 bone-stock VRB/Razorwings to accomplish two priorities - snipe out his two transports that have troop choices in them and kill what falls out so he can't score, and try to murder eldrad for slay the warlord before you lose your haemonc or farseer (and I would just take baron over the haemonculus, since he is going to provide stealth and is a hilarious steal at 105 points)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can also try something like this, which has been a fairly popular core lately; DE deathstars seem to be a more capable archetype than shooty spam lately -

3 ravagers 315
3 trueborn boats w/ 2x splinter cannon 363
Baron 105
Beast pack 270
4x 10 warriors w/ splinter cannon 400

Eldrad 210 (telepathy)
Eldar jetbikes (3) 66

Leaves 271 points for an ADL + some more AT or Vect or another beast pack or a bunch of haywire wyches just running around or war walkers or your favorite ice cream with chocolate fudge and a cherry on top (you have options here), and just run through cover and charge a bunch of vehicles, glance them to death, get shot by all the stuff that falls out of them, and then kill them next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's a joke to be made here about tactics vs. listbuilding when someone's list is 32% useless stuff but I promise I won't make it. If anyone in this thread tries to tell you to win by playing harder or moving your list around slightly differently you need to ignore them. The eldar list, while poorly optimized, has enough AV12 and return fire to severely punish you for spending 1/3 of your army's points on flashy wargear that largely doesn't do anything.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/516274.page lmao

Deployment will win and loose that game. What sort of board are you playing on?

You also seem light on AV12+ cracking power. blasters and dark lances are the go to D. eldar AV12+ cracking weapons in my experience (I hear haywire wyches can also do it but they seem too fragile).

The overall game plan in this sort of match up (where the enemy brought only 3 relatively easy to kill troops) is to kill those troops leaving 1-2 troops alive of yours to win the game. You should be able to accomplish this with just your elites and heavies. There are really only a few questions that would change to scenario.

Who went first and how much of your stuff died first turn?
(can be fixed with deployment, this will tell us all if you have mastered the art and science that is D eldar deployment)

How far forward did the ADL get placed by the eldar opponent?
(This is key as you could possibly turbo boost behind the line for a turn 2 heavy hit)

What sort of terrain do you guys have to play with?
(no terrain makes the ADL a 400 pt value while cityscapes make almost a hindrance)

remember that there should be terrain on the field. You should almost never be able to shoot more than 36" anyway

For serious

Lol, reading about how bad my list is is really actually quite funny to me. Sorry I don't min/max my list into a waac tournie list just to stomp my opponents into the ground. I tend to play for fun, avoid the 3+ flier players and enjoy the hobby my way, I've had some success with my eldar lists probably because the people I play against follow the same ideals.

As for the table, we roll a d6 for each 24"-24" and place terrain in said squares as we see fit, I placed my defence line basically dead center of the table at the edge of my deployment zone. Also I had first turn, and popped 1 ravager, 1 venom, and killed off 4/5 of his pathfinders. Then proceeded to turbo my transports that had fortune on them for that 4+ reroll cover save. First turn was also night fighting so I had my 2 fire prisms in the far back corner out of his attack range. As for terrain we use a mixture of ruins and hills to cover our tables depending on the dice rolls.

@MikeMcSomething
You made your point. The D. Eldar list needs to focus a little more so the unites in it have specific targets and the AT needs some boosting as AV lists will shut down a lot of his list. This does not stop valid tactical discussion though. You need to either contribute or stop trying to troll. (though the cat picture was funny, did you make it just for this discussion?)

@Rythem
Thanks for the details.

From your perspective did you have your choice of targets or were you forced to choose the only revealed targets? From the fact that you popped a ravager I am going to assume you had a good choice of targets and his deployment could use some advising as D. eldar cannot afford to allow LoS to the units they need alive.

@OP/Rythem
Considering night fighting how did the CWE have range on any of the DE stuff going first? Was the DE deploy within ~36" of the CWE guns? Nightfighting should have severely limited what could shoot on the CWE part as they were probably the more static element.

For your terrain does the hills and ruins completely block terrain to a good size part of the field? Normally the DE deploy behind these types of things and they "jump" over them in their turn.

The ADL can be somewhat mitigated if the cover saves from that were an issue by turbo-boosting around it one turn with you entire force to the side. Stay out of the 36"+12" move nightfighting range can help. But considering the CWE turbo boosted to keep their stuff alive the DE are better off just staying 36" away and firing as they have night vision so nightfighting is awesome for DE.

List wise the DE list really needs some more AT. The trueborns should probably focus on blasters and perhaps dark lances but not mixing and matching AT weapons and Anti-infantry weapons. The other suggestions would make your list more lean and threatening but it is your list ultimately.

The name of the game is in a fight like this keep 2 troops alive and sacrifice the rest of the army in exchange for the CWE troops. It should be a relatively easy trade to make and it will win the game in most missions (with FA or Heavy sometimes joining the troops as targets).

You are also the more mobile army as you have mobility across the board where he has a portion of his army that is slow. Bring the fight to a portion of his army at a time and keep the rest of his stuff with blocked LoS or out of range.

Makutsu,

I know how you feel. I play Dark Eldar as well and find myself regularly running against Eldar scatter laser and shuriken cannon spam and it is a hard fight. I have a harder time beating this sort of list than I do taking on a full Imperial Guard gunline. The real trouble is that Eldar are just as maneuverable as you, out armor you, out range you, and out shoot you. I suggest, for better or worse, to alpha strike their flank as hard as possible. You have to hit them with a crippling blow (which often takes a bit of luck) and hope not to be swept away by their retaliation.

For those that have not played Dark Eldar on the receiving end of a strength six spamming mechanized Eldar force I suggest you try it. It is a humbling, if not often humiliating, uphill fight.

To put it in perspective consider this. A single dark lance hit has the exact same chance of killing a wave-serpent as a single shuriken cannon or scatter laser shot has at killing a raider or venom. You can run as many lance weapons as you want, but point for point the Eldar will pump out more and they only get more firepower the closer you get (with shuriken weaponry doing unspeakable things to Dark Eldar infantry on foot).

Night shields are not rubbish. Seriously they are solid gold especially against GK, Crons and eldar. Thanks to the NS you have to target the walkers, prisms and quad gun. You can do this while being untargetable by the rest of his force! Thats huge!!!

Assuming you go first, taking out at least one of the prisms plus the quad gun should be easy...

Rythem wrote:
Lol, reading about how bad my list is is really actually quite funny to me. Sorry I don't min/max my list into a waac tour.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

This is why we can't have nice things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
@MikeMcSomething
You made your point. The D. Eldar list needs to focus a little more so the unites in it have specific targets and the AT needs some boosting as AV lists will shut down a lot of his list. This does not stop valid tactical discussion though. You need to either contribute or

You lost me right...there.

You're not a mod and you're not actually adding anything to the thread (I have actually added quite a bit to the thread) - once you Davinci Code crack the tragically bad grammar in your posts, you find it's just really obvious generalities. Like, you literally present ''attack the scoring units'' and ''keep stuff you don't want to die out of LoS" as legitimate tactical help. Might as well tell him to make sure he remembers to shoot his anti tank guns at enemy tanks and his anti infantry guns at enemy infantry, he might have totally missed out on that! Make sure he brings his dice and a measuring tape while you're at it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Massaen wrote:
Night shields are not rubbish. Seriously they are solid gold especially against GK, Crons and eldar. Thanks to the NS you have to target the walkers, prisms and quad gun. You can do this while being untargetable by the rest of his force! Thats huge!!!

Assuming you go first, taking out at least one of the prisms plus the quad gun should be easy...

Night shields suck, but I figured, "Hey, I'll read this guy's post history to see if he's ever used them to good effect, cause I know in my heart of hearts beyond a shadow of a doubt they are a trap choice, but I am morbidly curious and want to give this man the benefit of the doubt."

So your post history shows an army list you took to a tournament where you used 0 of them across several vehicles, and your posts in the army lists thread show you telling multiple people that have taken night shields to *remove* them from their lists. For bonus points they also do nothing vs decent Eldar, GK, or Cron lists.

Cause night shields suck so bad that even the guy saying that they are good doesn't use them and tells other people to not take them.


This is why we can't have nice things.

 ansacs wrote:
@MikeMcSomething
You made your point. The D. Eldar list needs to focus a little more so the unites in it have specific targets and the AT needs some boosting as AV lists will shut down a lot of his list. This does not stop valid tactical discussion though. You need to either contribute or stop trying to troll. (though the cat picture was funny, did you make it just for this discussion?)

@Rythem
Thanks for the details.

From your perspective did you have your choice of targets or were you forced to choose the only revealed targets? From the fact that you popped a ravager I am going to assume you had a good choice of targets and his deployment could use some advising as D. eldar cannot afford to allow LoS to the units they need alive.

@OP/Rythem
Considering night fighting how did the CWE have range on any of the DE stuff going first? Was the DE deploy within ~36" of the CWE guns? Nightfighting should have severely limited what could shoot on the CWE part as they were probably the more static element.

For your terrain does the hills and ruins completely block terrain to a good size part of the field? Normally the DE deploy behind these types of things and they "jump" over them in their turn.

The ADL can be somewhat mitigated if the cover saves from that were an issue by turbo-boosting around it one turn with you entire force to the side. Stay out of the 36"+12" move nightfighting range can help. But considering the CWE turbo boosted to keep their stuff alive the DE are better off just staying 36" away and firing as they have night vision so nightfighting is awesome for DE.

List wise the DE list really needs some more AT. The trueborns should probably focus on blasters and perhaps dark lances but not mixing and matching AT weapons and Anti-infantry weapons. The other suggestions would make your list more lean and threatening but it is your list ultimately.

The name of the game is in a fight like this keep 2 troops alive and sacrifice the rest of the army in exchange for the CWE troops. It should be a relatively easy trade to make and it will win the game in most missions (with FA or Heavy sometimes joining the troops as targets).

You are also the more mobile army as you have mobility across the board where he has a portion of his army that is slow. Bring the fight to a portion of his army at a time and keep the rest of his stuff with blocked LoS or out of range.

CWE? not sure what this stands for sorry.

He had most of his vehicles behind buildings, the pathfinders were in ruins, so were rocking their 2+ cover save, but I used the warwalkers to try and wipe them out. I also got pretty lucky with my rolls, only missing 4-5 times and doing 16 some odd wounds. Even with 2+ the odds are you are going to lose some people with that many wounds out. The ravenger was the only thing in range of my quad gun, and with the fire dragon manning it with crack shot I can ignore cover saves which only leaves his 5+invul to save the vehicle.

The terrain varies a lot, the building ruins can be a small broken down shack up to very large 12" x 12" ruins. The hills tend to be from 2" high up to 6" high of different sizes and shapes, we don't use any types of forests though they don't tend to block sight on vehicles anyways.

Really? Quoting 5th ed advice I gave out? They did suck in 5th.

6th with pre measuring is huge! The ability to manipulate the table so you CAN NOT be shot is massive! You engage when you want to engage and almost always get to strike first.

Night shields are a must IMO these days... I won the west Australian Masters tourney in November with. List that ran them across the board and again at a local RT in march, again I won the event... Many people Lerner to hate the night shields those weekends