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I propose that Malal, the little known chaos god of chaos fighting chaos, is in fact the hive mind.
My reasoning is as follows:
Malal was banished by the other chaos gods to another galaxy. The Tyranids are from another galaxy.
One of the many effects that chaos has on living beings is mutation. The Tyranids are constantly adapting through mutations.
The Emperor's plan was to starve the chaos gods to death by eliminating worship. Of course, as they survive on emotion, this would not have worked to kill them, though they would have been weakened. Malal, angry and his banishment, would surely seek revenge. By using a race of emotionless beasts driven to erase all life, he could eliminate all emotions in the galaxy and destroy the other gods.
The Tyranids utilize the Shadow in the Warp to cut off travel and communication to the system they are consuming. Perhaps this could also serve to cloak Malal's presence from the other gods?
The Tyranids utilize psykers, but do not harness their powers from the warp, rather they channel the power of the Hive Mind. Being a god, Malal would have the power to enable this.
Tyranids seem to be aware of warp travel, but do not use it. I suggest that this is in part because warp travel may not be possible between galaxies, and in part because Malal wishes to remain hidden from the other gods.

I'd like to know what you all think. AFAIK, it doesn't contradict any fluff. It is merely speculation, but I feel there is sufficient justification for it to be taken seriously.

_e

Wouldn't the Tyranids need the worship Malal for him to be powerful?

All seemed plausible... except that burning question of how he maintained his power without worship.

Khorne's followers worship by dedicating their kills to him. What if there is a nice little subcinscious section of each tyranid beastie that sends malal happy thoughts when connected to the hive mind and doing gribbly things?

I dont think there is anything wrong with completely making up your own stories but I dont recognize anything you wrote as having any basis in any thing GW has published.

I'm waiting for April Fool's to be said.

This is not an April Fool's day joke, this is something I have been thinking about for a while.

With regards to needing worship to survive, yes, Malal would. It is possible that the bids could somehow provide this, but as this would both defeat their purpose and has no fluff basis. Rather his sustenance comes from his established followers such as the renegade chapter Sons of Malice.

There is fluff for Malal. He is referenced in the 2002 CSM codex, and in the short story "The Labyrinth" in "Heroes of the Space Marines." However, as I said at the end of the OP, this is all speculation with no supporting fluff. But unlike some other theories of the origins of the Tyranid race which attempt to connect them to something in our galaxy (such as the one that suggests the Old Ones made them), I feel that this idea is both more plausible and likely.

Thank you to those who have posted constructive feedback. I'd like to hear some more thoughts on the topic. Anything I've missed?

_e

Hmmmm as an avid fan of Malal and Malice this would interesting and it makes sense. Except that Malal or Malice hates Chaos and the Tyranids don't devour things in the warp do they? (I am not sure if they do then I am wrong haha). I guess starving the other Chaos Gods work too but seems kind of a roundabout way of doing things. Also the Sons of Malice become confusing as well, why take a Astartes chapter if you've got the most destructive force in the galaxy?

Also why would Malal stay hidden? His champions have always been pretty badass at killing other champions of chaos so it would make sense that he should be better than the other 4 God's if his champions are so op.

I like it. It all seems reasonable from the fluff I've heard regarding bot Malal and Tyranids.
I especially like the fact that you mention Malal's purpose of killing the other Chaos Gods by starving them of the emotion they need to survive by killing every living thing in the galaxy. Indeed, Malal's emotional food, so to speak, could just be the urge to kill anything and everything in sight. That's the only emotion Nids seem to have.

There's also nothing in the fluff that contradicts the fact that the Emperor is in fact Papa Smurf high on psychic cocain, shouldn't we also examine this possibility?

An interesting read

It seems in the grey areas in which GW will NEVER revisit so I'll gladly except this one.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
There's also nothing in the fluff that contradicts the fact that the Emperor is in fact Papa Smurf high on psychic cocain, shouldn't we also examine this possibility?

Do you have a problem with someone coming up with a bit of fluff and asking for dakka's opinion about it? So you don't like fan made fluff, well guess what? That wasn't the question! The question was what we think of this bit of fluff he came up with, not how you feel about fan fluff.

Well, one reason for Malal to stay hidden would be that he was thrown out by the other gods, I doubt he wouldn't want to have them find him until he is ready to destroy them. While he may/may not be more powerful than the other gods, all four unified would likely be more than he could deal with.

The Sons of Malice and other devotees of Malal are there to worship him. He needs worshipers if he plans to surevive, and they undoubtedly help him to grow in power. He needs devotees, as the Tyranids do not think for themselves.

I'm not overly familiar with the current Necron fluff, but I suspect that they have a dislik of the warp (Cadian Gates). The C'Tan certainly did not. Malal, being a chaos god would likely rather avoid things that interfere with the warp, and as Tomb Worlds have little to no biomass to consume and the Necrons themselves do not have eemotions. As such, the Tyranids not only have no reason to attack Tomb Worlds, but also incentive to avoid them (there has been at least one example of Tyranids going out of their way to avoid Tomb Worlds).

With regards to the worship Malal needs to survive, he has a rather small base of followers. In old fluff, genestealer clans would sometimes worship chaos, becoming a genestealer cult. Perhaps this is a way in which Malal gains some power.
Unlike other Tyranid species, Genestealers operate far from the influence of the Hive Mind. While Genestealers themselves, being Tyranid organisms, would not truly be able to 'worship', the cults they create would be able to worship Malal.
As for Ymgral genestealers, the fact that they can only feed upon blood, however, seems to be in line with the cannibalistic rituals practiced by the Sons of Malice, and they are plagued by mutations far more than any other Tyranid organism. Perhaps they were an early 'prototype' from before Malal was kicked out, or perhaps they were a cult he elevated, and as such not truly Tyranids, but rather creatures of chaos (a possible reason why the Tyranid race is unwilling to absorb their biomass).

_e

Edit: Got a few replies while typing this. It is fan fluff. It is all speculation on my part. I appreciate comments, and if anyone has an idea or piece of fluff that supports, contradicts, or fits, please share.

Hmmm, makes sense, I like it, especially the Genestealer Cult thing that makes a lot of sense. Now I've got ideas of Chaos Spawn made with Tyranid and Marine parts, or Count As Berzerkers that are part Marine part part Tyranid Warrior, pretty cool idea for sure.

Yeah, I was wondering.

Isn't part of Malal worship consuming stuff? Like the Sons of Malal do?

And don't the Tyranids eat, like, a bunch of stuff?

TMYK

 Phiasco II wrote:


Do you have a problem with someone coming up with a bit of fluff and asking for dakka's opinion about it?

Of course not, it would be quite ridiculous to care about anything regarding 40k fluff.

So you don't like fan made fluff, well guess what? That wasn't the question!

Neither was it what I said.

The question was what we think of this bit of fluff he came up with, not how you feel about fan fluff.

And that's what I answered to. Just because nothing contradicts a particular explication regarding the fluff doesn't mean it should be considered acceptable. The Nids are not chaotic. In no way. They've never exhibited any traits that relate them to chaos in any form.

This is a ridiculous bit of fan fluff, and that's all. Like you said, he asked Dakka's opinion, and I'm giving mine.

 erick99 wrote:
Malal was banished by the other chaos gods to another galaxy. The Tyranids are from another galaxy.

Malal doesn't exist anymore (due to copyright issues). Malice does, but don't start using Malals fluff for Malice. While Malal might have been banished to another galaxy, nothing says that Malice was.

 erick99 wrote:
One of the many effects that chaos has on living beings is mutation. The Tyranids are constantly adapting through mutations.

Tyranids are constantly evolving through mutations. Like evry single other living creature ever. Tyranids just happen to be able to control it and apply it rapidly.

Their mutations also do not fit normal Chaos mutations, which tend to be random based on the whims of the God doing it (hence the name chaos). Tyranids do very controlled, structured changes with a goal in mind. Tyranids could almost be considered order.

 erick99 wrote:
The Emperor's plan was to starve the chaos gods to death by eliminating worship. Of course, as they survive on emotion, this would not have worked to kill them, though they would have been weakened. Malal, angry and his banishment, would surely seek revenge. By using a race of emotionless beasts driven to erase all life, he could eliminate all emotions in the galaxy and destroy the other gods.[/url]

Malal, by his nature as a Chaos God, still requires emotion to feed him. He just turns it back on itself. The Tyranids don't, as you yourself said, have emotions.

 erick99 wrote:
The Tyranids utilize the Shadow in the Warp to cut off travel and communication to the system they are consuming. Perhaps this could also serve to cloak Malal's presence from the other gods?

The Shadow in the Warp isn't intentionally used as a way to cut communication - it's just a happy by-product. The Shadow is the white noise from trillions upon trillions of psychic voices communicating in the warp, drowning out everything else.

 erick99 wrote:
The Tyranids utilize psykers, but do not harness their powers from the warp, rather they channel the power of the Hive Mind. Being a god, Malal would have the power to enable this.

They very definitely use the Warp. Note Cruddaces wording - it implies the Imperium simply does not understand how they use it ('in any fathomable way').

Also, your reasoning is off. Malal, being a chaos god, would require the use of the warp anyway. Since he is a being of chaos, of the warp.

 erick99 wrote:
Tyranids seem to be aware of warp travel, but do not use it. I suggest that this is in part because warp travel may not be possible between galaxies, and in part because Malal wishes to remain hidden from the other gods.

Or simply to make them different. Their method of travel is slower, but far, far safer, which is preferable to an ageless, technically immortal sentience. It wouldn't care when it arrived, just so long as it did.

Loki, thanks for the reply. My understanding was that GW didn't stick with Malal due to uncertainty over IP rights. It had been presented to me in a way that made them seem to be the same. I'll have to look into it more.

I agree that the Tyranids mutate in a very ordered, controlled way. What I am suggesting is that Malal/Malice is directly controlling the mutations, as opposed to just granting them at leisure. This obviously is not what one would expect from a chaos god, but Malal/Malice is not a typical chaos god.

Malal/Malice has followers. Sons of Malice and assorted other cults would likely be sufficient to keep him alive. Having been banished to another galaxy, it is not inconceivable that he developed a sufficiently large following to grow in power to the point where he could begin working his way back to this galaxy.

I understand what you are saying about the Shadow in the Warp, and I'm not disagreeing with you. I am merely suggesting that if Malal/Malice is the Hive Mind, it would have the added benefit of hiding his presence.

Cruddace's wording is what originally led me to this idea. After all, while it is clear they utilize the warp, but they try to be very specific that it is the Hive Mind. It seemed to me that a reasonable explanation for this would be if a chaos god were the Hive Mind, he could have the Tyranids channel the warp through him, to keep I'll effects and such at bay. I apologize for my poor wording of this in my op, I'll try and explain more in depth at another time.

That is a good point about warp travel, I had not considered that. But with regards to my idea, it is clear that Malal/Malice is very different from the other chaos gods. My conclusion was that if Malal/Malice was the Hive Mind, and was already doing things so differently from the norm, it would fit the trend of shielding the Tyranids from direct warp exposure, and have the benefit of keeping him hidden.

Kovnic, I understand that the Tyranids have never exhibited any chaosy traits at all. Doesn't it seem a bit strange to you that a race so large, so diverse, has never exhibited any chaos traits (beyond the previously mentioned genestealer cults, for whom I gave a reasonable explanation)? If Malal/Malice is the Hive Mind and is utilizing the Tyranids to destroy the other chaos gods, I should think he would like to keep them from warp exposure, lest they become able in some way to feed the chaos gods? Hence the Ymgral genestealers, whose forms are unstable, are not reclaimed. Malal/Malice does not want to risk the contamination of the perfect tool. It's a shame you feel that my idea is ridiculous, as I have tried to give sufficient reasons for it to be considered plausible. I appreciate your opinion, and the lack of chaosyness was a good point.

_e

The Warp doesn't exist in other galaxies. It exists entirely because of events and beings in this galaxy.

 greg0985 wrote:
Well, in 'Dead Sky Black Sun' part of the Graham Mcneill Ultra Marines/Iron Warriors books, when Uriel and Pasanius are taken by the Omphalos Daemonium (a powerful chosen daemon of Khorne), he transports them --unshielded-- through the warp (protected from other warp entities only by the sheer power of the Omphalos Daemonium). As their minds were about to collapse, it seemed to Uriel they were moving through the empty spaces between shards of a broken mirror. The Daemonium laughs at Uriel's futile attempt to make sense of the warp, and cautions him about the dangers of even trying to perceive its infinite vastness. I thought it was strongly implicated that each mirror shard was a separate reality or universe, and that the warp was the 'emptiness' that binds all of creation together.

If the warp, and its gods, exist in all reaches of ALL UNIVERSES, i find it highly unlikely for them NOT to exist in other galaxies in our own universe. Who's to say that only the races of our galaxy sustain them? They could also be sustained by a myriad of other races thought our known universe--in our galaxy and beyond--not to mention any possible races in the infinite number of OTHER universes.

In short, i think the Warp and the powers/gods therein are THE ultimate power in ALL universes, and have a tenuous grasp over the psyche of psionicly attuned races based in part over the amount of sway they hold over each race in question. The birth of Slaanesh for example, might just be the point at which Slaanesh wielded enough control over the Eldar, and was able to consume them in one calamitous event, allowing him/herself (shimself?) to rip through the veil of our galaxy and take far more power then (s)he had before (Slaanesh has always existed, even if the races of our galaxy hadn't felt his influence until that event).

Again these are all theories of my own, so...




***Edit: just thought I'd add that these theories of mine predate my adoption of all the chaos armies you see that I have I formed these theories during the gap between 3rd edition and end-of5th edition, during which my only ties to 40k were the novels that I read.

So, this was something i typed up in another thread, but i think it still holds true here (salt included ). If the 4 main gods exist throughout all universes/galaxies, they wouldn't just banish Malal to another galaxy in the same material universe. More likely they annihilated Malal's essence entirely, or banished him into some remote, empty dimensional prison far removed from them (even at his strongest, Malal was only a minor god...Doombreed could probably put up a bigger fight against the Four than Malal).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The Warp doesn't exist in other galaxies. It exists entirely because of events and beings in this galaxy.

Where do you get that? Frankly, for Tyranids to even be entering the Milky Way seems to indicate that the warp does in fact exist outside our own galaxy. If not, it would take them BILLIONS of years to cross such a vast empty expanse. We know that the Tyranid fleets make use of the warp for FTL travel, and that they have some sort of a biological "Geller Field" that protects them from the predations of the warp (most of the time ), so logically warp-travel is the only viable means of inter-galactic travel in the 40k universe--and even then such a voyage (should i perhaps say odyssey?) would take thousands or tens-of-thousands of years.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The Warp doesn't exist in other galaxies. It exists entirely because of events and beings in this galaxy.

The Hive Mind is an intricate warp based communication system. As well, the Hive Mind sees prey worlds, via the Vanguards psychic beacon, in the warp. This is also why they can see and are reacting to the Astronomican.

Are you suggesting the Hive Mind simply did not exist until the Tyranids reached the Milky Way?

The warp exists everywhere. It's chaos that evolved in the Milky Way.

OP: The Tyranid constantly adapt to purpose by the use of selective genetic modification, Chaos just goes have a tenticle/fuse to armour. They are pretty different things.

Also as a warp entity the Shadow of the Warp caused by Tyranids would also effect Malal.

The reason why GW don't use Malal in fluff is not because of some grand reveal later, its because of copyright issues.