Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Backfire wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

You don't have to play a gunline with Tau if you don't want. You can always suit-up and play the kiting game.

...and I'm going to do what exactly with my tanks?

The same thing I did with my Tetras: sell them and buy Riptides!

Or just accept that your tanks are no longer super-fast gunships and play accordingly. Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job. And while being a Devilfish is a bad life choice in the new codex, Fish of Fury is still alive (though just barely). It's not like the codex has an overabundance of tanks anyways...

 AtoMaki wrote:
Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job.

Yeah, who cares about mobility. Let's just make Tau into another IG-style gunline.

The simple fact is mobility is what made Tau tanks awesome in the previous codex. If you can't understand why and honestly think that being reduced to a static gun turret is just fine then I don't really know what else to say, you've just missed the point entirely.

Deadnight wrote:
except that back in third edition, tau were a gunline army. that gunline thing? Well, sit and shoot was precisely what they did. the whole "mechtau" thinh only appeared in fourth edition thanks to skimmers moving fast, fish of fury and decoy launchers.

Yeah, because the ideal goal of a new codex is to take an army back to its most boring version. Gunline armies are a bad thing, and pushing Tau back in that direction is an incredibly stupid decision.

dont think the one viable build from two editions prior to this one should define the factions entire playstyle.

Nobody is arguing that mech Tau should define the Tau codex, we just want it to be a viable option. I don't see why it's so hard to understand that having a mono-build codex of battlesuits and magic laser pointers is a bad thing.

tau will sit and shoot, and hold a line.

JSJ, one of the defining mechanics of the Tau army, disagrees with you. That's how Tau are different from a generic IG gunline, they have heavy weapons that can actually move around (and faster than normal infantry) while still shooting.

meh. at least it offers me something new to the 3xhammerheads, 2x shas'els, min fire warriors in a fish and kroot that has been the staple tau list for 3 editions now!

Sorry, I think you're just bad at playing Tau. The "standard" list has been broadside and fireknife spam for years, 3x Hammerheads spent all of 5th edition as a fun alternative for when you didn't care about playing competitively.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job.

Yeah, who cares about mobility. Let's just make Tau into another IG-style gunline.

The simple fact is mobility is what made Tau tanks awesome in the previous codex. If you can't understand why and honestly think that being reduced to a static gun turret is just fine then I don't really know what else to say, you've just missed the point entirely.

I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static. Especially since you can still move that 6", nothing forces you to stay still (Broadsides and Sky Rays are the only exceptions). And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static.

Because some of us enjoyed playing a Tau army that took the minimum crisis suit HQ (or a tank HQ if house rule characters are allowed) and filled the rest of the army with fire warriors in Devilfish, Hammerheads and Piranhas. Now that army is completely crippled: Hammerheads are reduced to static gun turrets while Piranhas are nerfed to BS 3.

And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

I'm so glad my fun and interesting army has been replaced by Codex:Magic Laser Pointers.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Backfire wrote:


...and I'm going to do what exactly with my tanks?

The same thing I did with my Tetras: sell them and buy Riptides!

Or just accept that your tanks are no longer super-fast gunships and play accordingly. Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job. And while being a Devilfish is a bad life choice in the new codex, Fish of Fury is still alive (though just barely). It's not like the codex has an overabundance of tanks anyways...

I didn't start Tau to play boring, immobile tanks. When I want that, I can play my Space marines. And true there aren't many tanks, and the plan seems to be that what there is need to be gotten rid of, since certainly not too many people are eager to play them by those rules.

And the worst thing is, even if tanks had been just allowed to keep their old rules (usually a minimum to be expected when there is a Codex change), who would that have hurt? Nobody! Were old Tau tanks overpowered? No. Would it have hurt those people who do not care about playing Tau tanks and only were interested about the suits and infantry? No it would have not.

It was done for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static. Especially since you can still move that 6", nothing forces you to stay still (Broadsides and Sky Rays are the only exceptions). And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

It's because that 6" was often quite critical getting the tank over terrain pieces, or gaining angle for side shots, or getting secondary armament on range. See, the fundamental idea behind Tau was that they are not that numerous, or not actually even that good by themselves, but they had these clever technical aids and innovative tactics to maximize what they got every turn. For example, the way you played Hammerhead was that you moved nearly every turn, hopefully avoiding getting charged, got a good angle on some tank maybe, and then unloaded secondary armament at nearby enemy infantry. You did not waste shots, you made everything count by careful movement and target selection. It was fun and challenging way to play. Markerlights were part of that, but they were an OPTION. You had other ways of making your force viable.

Now, the Tau look like they are lucky idiots who would be totally screwed but by chance they came up with a Magic laser pointer from which the army is now almost totally dependent from. Even with their best other technology they are limited to average shooting ability, and their "highly advanced" tanks actually contain less impressive technology than those of Imperial armies.

True, the army has lots of options how to kit your vehicles and suits, but there is not much option on the theme of the army. Compare to IG which can do Air cav, foot slogging, fully mechanized infantry, heavy artillery...each of those armies will look totally different on the tabletop. Old Tau codex originally had nearly same variability, though advances in the meta stripped them off later. But the new book starts with just one variety.

There is no way you'll convince me that this is "progress".

 Peregrine wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static.

Because some of us enjoyed playing a Tau army that took the minimum crisis suit HQ (or a tank HQ if house rule characters are allowed) and filled the rest of the army with fire warriors in Devilfish, Hammerheads and Piranhas. Now that army is completely crippled: Hammerheads are reduced to static gun turrets while Piranhas are nerfed to BS 3.

And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

I'm so glad my fun and interesting army has been replaced by Codex:Magic Laser Pointers.

So your specific list took a beating. That sucks. Talk to any daemon players who have had to buy twice as many troop kits just to have enough models to run new lists. Its a new codex. There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you. Yes its frustrating that your old list does not work anymore. Time to get out of the comfort zone and experiment. Unless you are a WAAC or TFG then experimenting with your army and learning new things about an army you have loved for years is part of the enjoyment of this game.

Backfire wrote:

There is no way you'll convince me that this is "progress".

I'm not saying that it is progress. But as keltikhoa said, it isn't the end of the world either. You can regain some mobility with Sensor Spines and Markerlights, but hey, really, you don't need it. We are playing Aegishammer: Gunline Edition anyways...

 keltikhoa wrote:
There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you.

Oh, there is, and I'm sure it's going to be way more powerful (if I have to buy a new army I'm buying the WAAC one). But don't expect me to be happy that my Tau tank collection will never be leaving the display shelf again and I have to spend hundreds of dollars on a completely new army if I want to keep playing Tau. That's just incredibly bad game design.

 keltikhoa wrote:

So your specific list took a beating. That sucks. Talk to any daemon players who have had to buy twice as many troop kits just to have enough models to run new lists. Its a new codex. There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you. Yes its frustrating that your old list does not work anymore. Time to get out of the comfort zone and experiment.

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

You can still use devilfish as transports and mobile cover, their guns weren't good last codex anyways, but at least you can put down more fire if you are moving slowly. My hammerhead is going to be decommisioned though, which sucks.

Backfire wrote:

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

If its over for you then that is your choice. Sell your collection and move on. There is in fact a forum here on dakka specifically devoted to selling and trading! Perhaps you should make some posts there instead of doom and glooming on these threads. The only possible thing you could be doing by posting that you are quitting on these threads is trying to convince others to quit as well. Misery does love company after all.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Captain Avatar wrote:
I expect that once the newness wears of and our opponents start to exploit the glaring flaws of this dex, Tau players will realize that their new army is the Tyranids of 6th ed.

In general, this has been said about every 6th edition codex. Because it does feel like GW is taking a step in the right direction and are balancing the books against each other, instead of what it out there already (like they're doing with 8th edition Fantasy). The books look pretty weak when compared to 5th edition powerhouse books, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books look weak compared to 7th edition powerhouse books. 6th edition books are looking pretty balanced against each other, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books.

Seriously, wait until everyone has their new codex - given the ramped up speed of release they've shown so far, it won't take long. And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

As someone who plays both of those books, honestly I'm looking forward to those ball-kicks. I want some internal balance and cheaper units. Just keep us at a reasonable level and I'll be happy.

 Peregrine wrote:

The simple fact is mobility is what made Tau tanks awesome in the previous codex. If you can't understand why and honestly think that being reduced to a static gun turret is just fine then I don't really know what else to say, you've just missed the point entirely.
.

is it really a case of "what made them awesome" or "frankly, this is all thats really viable, since no other style works" Lets face it. since fourth, there was only one or two valid tau builds.

Here's a question. If tau had previously had an incredibly viable, very potent gunline approach, do you think that that approach would have seen table time? Would we have this fuss now of a style change? "mech tau" only defined tau thanks to fourth edition invalidating the "shoot the rhino rush" build of third, and bringing SMF to the table. that pushed a specific tau build to the fore, and that single build, righlty or wrongly, defined the tau.

 Peregrine wrote:

Yeah, because the ideal goal of a new codex is to take an army back to its most boring version. Gunline armies are a bad thing, and pushing Tau back in that direction is an incredibly stupid decision.
.

*shrug* perspective peregrine. Some people might like gunlines. personally, i got tired of mech-hammer 40k at the dawn of fifth. its part of the reason i dropped out of that edition almost for its entirety. in any case "bringing something back to its roots" is often seen as a good thing by some.

 Peregrine wrote:

Nobody is arguing that mech Tau should define the Tau codex, we just want it to be a viable option. I don't see why it's so hard to understand that having a mono-build codex of battlesuits and magic laser pointers is a bad thing.
.

because it basically involves you playing the same list you've been playing for the last five years? Im all for it being a viable option, but from what i read, hammerheads are still decent (fine, they're not moving 12" a turn, but they can still kill stuff) and moving beyond that, they're still useful as part of a bigger picture, as opposed to being the picture. maybe it just needs folks to take a step or two back and rethink the issue. its what im doing.

 Peregrine wrote:

JSJ, one of the defining mechanics of the Tau army, disagrees with you. That's how Tau are different from a generic IG gunline, they have heavy weapons that can actually move around (and faster than normal infantry) while still shooting.
.

Oh, so fire warriors have JSJ? Kroot have JSJ? Hammerheads have JSJ? JSJ is a hallmark of crisis suits, not of the enitire tau army. crisis suits have always been mobile - but the rest of the army? not necessarily. fire warriors were always quite happy to hold a line, and broadsides who purpose involves them anchoring themselves to a commanding position as artillery pieces. like i said, tau mobility for the most part is strategic, not tactical.

In any case, i was thinking of IAV3 which had multiple instances (fighting the avenging sons, the battle at the mine, operation comet) of fire warriors moving in, holding a position while putting fire into their intended targets and then pushing in further, or pulling back. crisis suits ran the gauntlet, went in, killed stuff and pulled out. the rest held the line. And there are further examples in the fluff, both of specific battles (eg building fortifications on nimbosa), and specific tactical approaches(kauyon) involving gunlining.

 Peregrine wrote:

sorry, I think you're just bad at playing Tau. The "standard" list has been broadside and fireknife spam for years, 3x Hammerheads spent all of 5th edition as a fun alternative for when you didn't care about playing competitively.

I was actually pretty good when i did play, and yes, i placed in quite a few tournaments here with my tau. then again, i played fourth ed mainly. never bothered with fifth to be fair.

and please, do me a favour and hold the snide comments, especially when you dont know who you're talking to. Its called "being polite".

 keltikhoa wrote:

Backfire wrote:

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

If its over for you then that is your choice. Sell your collection and move on. There is in fact a forum here on dakka specifically devoted to selling and trading! Perhaps you should make some posts there instead of doom and glooming on these threads. The only possible thing you could be doing by posting that you are quitting on these threads is trying to convince others to quit as well. Misery does love company after all.

Or, y'know, actually try to play a couple games with the army and see just now nerfed the tanks are rather than complain about it constantly.

 keltikhoa wrote:

Backfire wrote:

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

If its over for you then that is your choice.

No it's not my choice. GW forced it on me. And really, some nerve you have commenting as if my gripe is somehow not legit. I don't whine about the army not being sufficiently powerful, I whine that it can't be played at all like it used to be. And I don't need "test games" to find it out. It's blatantly obvious from the rules.

Backfire wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:

Backfire wrote:

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

If its over for you then that is your choice.

No it's not my choice. GW forced it on me. And really, some nerve you have commenting as if my gripe is somehow not legit. I don't whine about the army not being sufficiently powerful, I whine that it can't be played at all like it used to be. And I don't need "test games" to find it out. It's blatantly obvious from the rules.

In other words, you don't like it and never will even give it a chance. Why are we even bothering to argue with you?

At least you didn't suffer the same fate as lost and the damned.

Or Sisters.

Anyone have opinions on a devilfish with seeker missiles on and aircraft for vehicles? we really don't need the hammerhead anymore to kill anything when a seeker missile to the rear from a flyer will work just as well, and land raiders can be dealt with by melta and haywire grenades.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Backfire wrote:

No it's not my choice. GW forced it on me. And really, some nerve you have commenting as if my gripe is somehow not legit. I don't whine about the army not being sufficiently powerful, I whine that it can't be played at all like it used to be. And I don't need "test games" to find it out. It's blatantly obvious from the rules.

In other words, you don't like it and never will even give it a chance. Why are we even bothering to argue with you?

Okay, let me explain it to you: for old Tau mechanized units, it was extremely important to be able to move and still able to shoot effectively. You can't do this anymore. Hence, the army is no longer playable in that playstyle. You don't need to "give it a chance", it's obvious from one glance at the rulebook. You don't need to "try it out" to discover that Grots probably don't beat Terminators in close combat.

There is a reason why people don't post vehicle-based Tau armies on the Army list forum.

And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

That's a good joke. Oh wait, your serious. Suffice to say I will believe this when I see it. Anyone want to take bets that the Vendetta will lose access to its 3 twin-linked lascannons in the next IG book, anyone?

I bet the vendetta will lose its lascannons and replace them with a titan weapon.

Phanixis wrote:

And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

That's a good joke. Oh wait, your serious. Suffice to say I will believe this when I see it. Anyone want to take bets that the Vendetta will lose access to its 3 twin-linked lascannons in the next IG book, anyone?

It's not the 3 TLLC that's the problem... it's the 130pt price tag. Another 40-60pts on top of that would make it a reasonable vehicle.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

That's a good joke. Oh wait, your serious. Suffice to say I will believe this when I see it. Anyone want to take bets that the Vendetta will lose access to its 3 twin-linked lascannons in the next IG book, anyone?

It's not the 3 TLLC that's the problem... it's the 130pt price tag. Another 40-60pts on top of that would make it a reasonable vehicle.

agreed totally

a predator costs more than that and its only got 1 TL LC and 2 non TL on sponsons.... itsnt a flyer.... CANT be squadroned.... cant carry troops.... you can see where this is going...

Phanixis wrote:

And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

That's a good joke. Oh wait, your serious. Suffice to say I will believe this when I see it. Anyone want to take bets that the Vendetta will lose access to its 3 twin-linked lascannons in the next IG book, anyone?

So you first insult me and then try to pass it off by claiming something very, very unlikely won't happen.

Bravo sir.

The Vendettas problem has always been its cost. It's firepower is fine for a gunship - it's just too cheap for what it does. Yes, I'll take bets the Vendetta will cop a heftier rice tag to justify its firepower.

However, if you want to talk armaments becoming invalid, talk to some Tyranid players about some of their Carnifex loadouts. Yes, GW have, in the past, completely invalidated models by removing their armament from the game. I don't see it happening to the Vendetta, but I do expect a price increase.

If, after seeing the power level trend of the current crop of 6th edition codices, and what happened to 8th edition Fantasy, you don't see GW going for a particular level of power across the board, you're being naive, either willfully or not.

Backfire wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Backfire wrote:

No it's not my choice. GW forced it on me. And really, some nerve you have commenting as if my gripe is somehow not legit. I don't whine about the army not being sufficiently powerful, I whine that it can't be played at all like it used to be. And I don't need "test games" to find it out. It's blatantly obvious from the rules.

In other words, you don't like it and never will even give it a chance. Why are we even bothering to argue with you?

Okay, let me explain it to you: for old Tau mechanized units, it was extremely important to be able to move and still able to shoot effectively. You can't do this anymore. Hence, the army is no longer playable in that playstyle. You don't need to "give it a chance", it's obvious from one glance at the rulebook. You don't need to "try it out" to discover that Grots probably don't beat Terminators in close combat.

There is a reason why people don't post vehicle-based Tau armies on the Army list forum.

A: Gun drones are passengers, so you can still move and have them fire along with the main gun.

B: Markerlights buff snapshots, so if it's really important to reposition a Hammerhead and still get shots off, you can do it.

C: Hammerheads are much cheaper now. Even with Sensor Spines and D. Pods they're still cheaper than before.

E: Pirahnas are cheaper, come in squads of five, and can dump five non-scoring MSUs at their enemy's feet to harass them.

Markerlights are a fact of life for Tau. Not wanting to play with them is like playing a Blood Angels army and complaining about all the melee.

RogueRegault wrote:

A: Gun drones are passengers, so you can still move and have them fire along with the main gun.

B: Markerlights buff snapshots, so if it's really important to reposition a Hammerhead and still get shots off, you can do it.

C: Hammerheads are much cheaper now. Even with Sensor Spines and D. Pods they're still cheaper than before.

E: Pirahnas are cheaper, come in squads of five, and can dump five non-scoring MSUs at their enemy's feet to harass them.

Markerlights are a fact of life for Tau. Not wanting to play with them is like playing a Blood Angels army and complaining about all the melee.

A. They have to fire same target than the vehicle, so it's not the same.
B. You still need large amount of Markerlights to do that, even in the best case you can't buff more than 2 vehicles per game and that eats up most of your Markerlight capacity, even if you have lots of that.
C. People repeat this, but It does not matter how cheap they are. Hammerheads have always been limited by FOC slots, not points cost. Some 20 point drop is completely irrelevant, since you can't take more of them to compensate from their signifantly weaker performance.
D. Piranhas are cheaper, yes, until you figure in Disruption pod, then the advantage is almost gone. Also they can't take TA anymore. Lightly armoured 2HP vehicles suck in 6th edition. Drones have to form one unit when they disembark btw.
E. Markerlights were never mandatory for Tau. Possibly very useful, but not necessary. I liked Markerlights, when I had to choice to make whether I use them or not. Now, the army has been intentionally nerfed in other respects to force-feed Markerlights down my throat. That's terrible Codex writing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you.

Oh, there is, and I'm sure it's going to be way more powerful (if I have to buy a new army I'm buying the WAAC one). But don't expect me to be happy that my Tau tank collection will never be leaving the display shelf again and I have to spend hundreds of dollars on a completely new army if I want to keep playing Tau. That's just incredibly bad game design.

But is that not what GW want - they don't want you to keep using the old stuff - they want you to buy the new shiny stuff and then do it again in a few years - i thought that was the whole point of how how they worked?

If its over for you then that is your choice. Sell your collection and move on.

This is the best advice in this thread. As a matter of fact, despite having played 40K and FB for about 22 years now I don't think any of my armies ever survived an edition change or a codex update. It's the nature of the business. When the game or your army book changes your precious army list simply won't be the same.

If you refuse to change your army concept you'll have a weaker army, simple as that, but in most cases (not all) it's still legal and ready to play. Many a times I didn't like the new playstyle of my army of choice, so I sold the army and moved on to another army that played according to the way I want to play. Some people move away from their army after the rules change, but in turn a lot of new guys move to the army because of those same changes.

But is that not what GW want - they don't want you to keep using the old stuff - they want you to buy the new shiny stuff and then do it again in a few years

I'm not sure why people think this is somehow evil. They want to sell their customers a new army every four or five years? Many other companies look to invalidate your stuff in just one year by pushing out something vastly superior or by ceasing to support the old product entirely.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you.

Oh, there is, and I'm sure it's going to be way more powerful (if I have to buy a new army I'm buying the WAAC one). But don't expect me to be happy that my Tau tank collection will never be leaving the display shelf again and I have to spend hundreds of dollars on a completely new army if I want to keep playing Tau. That's just incredibly bad game design.

But is that not what GW want - they don't want you to keep using the old stuff - they want you to buy the new shiny stuff and then do it again in a few years - i thought that was the whole point of how how they worked?

Sadly, I have to agree with this. The thing to remember is that GW was once a company of dedicated gamers who did what they did because of their love for their hobby. Unfortunately, GW is now a corporate business. And their goal isn't to spread the love and Joy of 40K, it's to make as much money as they can, as quickly as they can. This isn't hate speech. Just fact.

Unfortunately, GW is now a corporate business.

What do you mean by now? Is this new information? GW became 'corporate business' last night or what? GW changed its orientation to the current one in 1991, which is before many of you were born I suspect.