Will the New Tau Codex bring wanted changes, or will the Tau no longer be worth playing?

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**Desubot**

Jancoran wrote:
May I point out one thing I just noticed? I just noticed that the Broadside has no A.S.S. capability. Bummer.

Yep, on the bright side, markerlights can increase Snap shot BS.

also to note kinda cool that you can raise your BS as much as you want, doesn't appear to have been given a limit. 0 scatter st 9 ap 2 large blast anyone?

**Tun_Tau**

The codex is great all around-My only gripe is losing target locks on my piranha/FB squads but then they are 18" range. Worth the trade.. and then -> Early warning override on crisis teams? Yes, Thank you. Drone Controllers on HQ and gun drone squads? Hell yes!(MULTIPLE) Markerlights possible in pretty much in every slot? Nice. and a crap ton of other options? Terrific.
Hammerheads look more viable this time around as well as the rest of the entire codex, so why the tears

over one or two pieces of war gear?

**ZebioLizard2**

I think Vespids somehow became worse.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Jancoran wrote:
May I point out one thing I just noticed? I just noticed that the Broadside has no A.S.S. capability. Bummer.

What is ASS capability? I'm unfamiliar with this acronym (though it is funny).

**Desubot**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Jancoran wrote:
May I point out one thing I just noticed? I just noticed that the Broadside has no A.S.S. capability. Bummer.

What is ASS capability? I'm unfamiliar with this acronym (though it is funny).

Advance stabilizer system or something like that.
It gave SnP during your shooting phase.

**nosferatu1001**

Advanced Stabilisation System, which let them use Slow and Purposeful

**Melissia**

Skriker wrote:
Wow you are so right. Strength 8 weapons are completely and totally useless in the game and I can't believe that any army should be forced to have to use them for anti-vehicle defense.

Hell, at least Tau HAVE an option for higher-strength weaponry than S8, unlike Sisters.

**Backfire**

Skriker wrote:

But your tank army *is* intact. How many models from the old codex are now unusable? That would be a whopping ZERO. You look at the numbers, make claims and assume your army is useless now when it isn't necessarily. I say that you can put your Tau army, modeled as is, on the table and still have fun and enjoyable games, but you have convinced yourself that the codex is completely useless without even bothering to play a game using it. The CSM and Chaos daemons books were both panned before their release as either being pointless (CSM) or totally ruining it (Daemons). Neither has proven to be the case in actual practice. No one can force you to put your minis on the table and play games with them, but it just seems pretty dumb to refuse to even bother because you ASSUME that your army is going to be useless now. Heck if you put the minis on the table and just play some games you might actually find yourself having some fun.

But you're still not seeing the real problem. It has less to do with Broadside nerf (although it leaves me puzzled on the grounds that little to nothing seems to be in the book to make up for it). It has nothing to do with book being unplayable as a whole, I'm sure you can make powerful lists with it.

If you look at the list Kingsley posted...I can already make almost exact same list with my Dark Angels codex:
-Librarian w/ Divination
-command squad w/ Dakka banner
-tactical Marines in Rhinoes
-Deathwing squad
-couple of auto/las Predators
-Vindicator

That list has same mobility, quite similar firepower, roughly similar durability, even some of the "unique" special rules are almost exactly the same! (coincidence that they were written by same person? I dunno...). And basic tactics you would use with it are likely quite similar. This is the problem - it's just nothing unique anymore.

**Jancoran**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I think Vespids somehow became worse.

eh...no.

**Backfire**

Jancoran wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I think Vespids somehow became worse.

eh...no.

I actually think they become relatively worse. One of their chief problems always was that their damage output for their points cost was so laughably low. Now, it's actually even worse than it was before. Of course, they did gain buffs - Hit & run, more weapon range (very important!), better armour. So absolutely they are somewhat better particularly when you figure out improved Markerlight coverage the army received (Vespid need Markerlights to boost their weak firepower), but the thing is that other stuff at Fast Attack become much better: Pathfinders, Drones (esp. Marker Drones). And then of course FA contains the flyers, if someone wants to use them. So I don't just see any role for them. Even regular Gun Drones are probably better.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Well, I suppose they are useful for the scouring.

That's still very situational though :/

**hotsauceman1**

Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

**CthuluIsSpy**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

**Peregrine**

Melissia wrote:
Skriker wrote:
Wow you are so right. Strength 8 weapons are completely and totally useless in the game and I can't believe that any army should be forced to have to use them for anti-vehicle defense.
Hell, at least Tau HAVE an option for higher-strength weaponry than S8, unlike Sisters.

We get it, SoB desperately need an update with proper rules. But the existence of one crippled army doesn't mean that it's ok for every other army to be crippled.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

Make them less durable and have much less firepower?

**hotsauceman1**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

They are sniper rifles now, not rail rifles.
And i have 9.

**Desubot**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

They are sniper rifles now, not rail rifles.
And i have 9.

Sad trombone.

That sucks. i have 3 my self that are going to sit on the display shelf.

**CthuluIsSpy**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

They are sniper rifles now, not rail rifles.
And i have 9.

Well, they are sniper drones

Besides, a unit of 9 or so S6 AP1 weapons that hit on a 2+ would have been a bit nuts.

**Peregrine**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Besides, a unit of 9 or so S6 AP1 weapons that hit on a 2+ would have been a bit nuts.

They could have just kept the same rules as in the previous codex, which were better than the current ones but still so weak that nobody used them.

**Melissia**

Peregrine wrote:
We get it, SoB desperately need an update with proper rules. But the existence of one crippled army doesn't mean that it's ok for every other army to be crippled.

Tau are by no means "crippled".

**CthuluIsSpy**

Peregrine wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Besides, a unit of 9 or so S6 AP1 weapons that hit on a 2+ would have been a bit nuts.

They could have just kept the same rules as in the previous codex, which were better than the current ones but still so weak that nobody used them.

I dunno, I think the long pulse rifle is a bit better than the old rail rifle. It has a chance to be AP2 and it comes with precision. Against MEQ its not as good, but against TEQ it should be superior.

**Wilytank**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

They are sniper rifles now, not rail rifles.
And i have 9.

Well, they are sniper drones

Besides, a unit of 9 or so S6 AP1 weapons that hit on a 2+ would have been a bit nuts.

And they're rapid fire now which is a bit weird.

**Peregrine**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I dunno, I think the long pulse rifle is a bit better than the old rail rifle. It has a chance to be AP2 and it comes with precision.

It has a chance to be AP 2 and a 1/6 chance to get a precise shot (1/36 if you need AP 2 to avoid bouncing off a good armor save), while the old rail rifles had a 100% chance to be AP 3 (almost always just as good as AP 2) and wounded most targets on a 2+ instead of a 4+. The new guns give up a lot of consistent firepower in exchange for the gimmick of sniping the occasional specific model. That is not even close to a fair trade, even without counting the greatly reduced durability or loss of split fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
We get it, SoB desperately need an update with proper rules. But the existence of one crippled army doesn't mean that it's ok for every other army to be crippled.
Tau are by no means "crippled".

That remains to be seen. But "SoB suck too" still isn't a valid argument, it just means that there are several things wrong with the game right now. Whether or not SoB need more higher-strength weapons is completely independent of whether or not Tau need them.

**Kingsley**

Backfire wrote:
If you look at the list Kingsley posted...I can already make almost exact same list with my Dark Angels codex:
-Librarian w/ Divination
-command squad w/ Dakka banner
-tactical Marines in Rhinoes
-Deathwing squad
-couple of auto/las Predators
-Vindicator

That list has same mobility, quite similar firepower, roughly similar durability, even some of the "unique" special rules are almost exactly the same! (coincidence that they were written by same person? I dunno...). And basic tactics you would use with it are likely quite similar. This is the problem - it's just nothing unique anymore.

Earlier, your argument was that Tau didn't have very many list archetypes. Now you're saying that the new Tau Codex is bad because they can do the same archetypes that other armies can? It seems as if your position has outright reversed.

**Melissia**

Peregrine wrote:
"SoB suck too" still isn't a valid argument

That wasn't the argument to begin with.

It was an example of an army that is capable of anti-tank combat without a single weapon of higher strength than 8. Tau have more than zero weapons with a higher strength than eight; furthermore, their strength 8 weapons are decidedly better than what the Sisters have anyway.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Wilytank wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

They are sniper rifles now, not rail rifles.
And i have 9.

Well, they are sniper drones

Besides, a unit of 9 or so S6 AP1 weapons that hit on a 2+ would have been a bit nuts.

And they're rapid fire now which is a bit weird.

Oh, they are rapid fire as well? That means they can churn out considerably more shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I used this site here to run some calculations against MEQ and TEQ: http://mathhammer40k.com/shooting/infantry

Sniper : S4 (poison, so the the strength will be the same as the toughness in math terms) AP5, rending

Old Rail Rifle: S6 AP3

BS of drones (after controller) : 5

Number of shots: 9

Hit rate : 7.500

This is not factoring cover or marker lights.

MEQ

T4 3+sv

Sniper Rifle

Wounds inflicted : 3.750

Wound taken after saves : 2.083

Rail Rifle

Wounds inflicted: 6.250

Wounds taken after saves: 6.250

T4 2+sv

Sniper Rifle:

Wounds inflicted : 3.750

Wounds after saves : 1.667

Rail Rifle:

Wounds inflicted: 3.750
Wounds after saves : 1.042

Rapid firing sniper rifles (at 24" too!):

T4 2+sv

Hits: 15.000

Wounds inflicted : 7.500

Wounds after saves : 3.333

T4 3+sv

Hits: 15.000

Wounds inflicted : 7.500

Wounds after saves : 4.167

Old Rail rifles were heavy 1, iirc, so no calculations for those.

New Rail rifles are rapid fire though, strangely enough.

What was the range of old rail rifle anyway?

**Peregrine**

Melissia wrote:
It was an example of an army that is capable of anti-tank combat without a single weapon of higher strength than 8. Tau have more than zero weapons with a higher strength than eight; furthermore, their strength 8 weapons are decidedly better than what the Sisters have anyway.

SoB might be capable of anti-tank combat, in a metagame where few people use tanks and even fewer bring all-tank armies, but they're certainly not good at it. Having a single unit other than melta guns that can hurt tanks (not just transports) is NOT the standard by which other armies should be measured.

**Kingsley**

Peregrine wrote:
Having a single unit other than melta guns that can hurt tanks (not just transports) is NOT the standard by which other armies should be measured.

Retributors, Exorcists, Immolators, plus everything in the Codex with strong anti-vehicle CC potential... what am I missing?

**Peregrine**

Kingsley wrote:
Retributors, Exorcists, Immolators, plus everything in the Codex with strong anti-vehicle CC potential... what am I missing?

The part where I said non-melta. The Exorcist is the only SoB unit capable of dealing with tanks from outside melta range. That's laughably inadequate for an entire army's ranged anti-tank, and it's absurd to say that Tau ranged anti-tank is fine just because SoB only have one unit.

**Backfire**

Kingsley wrote:

Earlier, your argument was that Tau didn't have very many list archetypes. Now you're saying that the new Tau Codex is bad because they can do the same archetypes that other armies can? It seems as if your position has outright reversed.

No, I said that I'm not seeing many list archetypes, because the book doesn't seem to support them. Sure, you CAN make all kinds of wacky lists out of any army, but most people realize which ones won't work and don't use them.

**barnowl**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why did they do that to the sniper drones?

Do what?

They are sniper rifles now, not rail rifles.
And i have 9.

Well, they are sniper drones

Besides, a unit of 9 or so S6 AP1 weapons that hit on a 2+ would have been a bit nuts.

And they're rapid fire now which is a bit weird.

Oh, they are rapid fire as well? That means they can churn out considerably more shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I used this site here to run some calculations against MEQ and TEQ: http://mathhammer40k.com/shooting/infantry

Sniper : S4 (poison, so the the strength will be the same as the toughness in math terms) AP5, rending

Old Rail Rifle: S6 AP3

BS of drones (after controller) : 5

Number of shots: 9

Hit rate : 7.500

This is not factoring cover or marker lights.

MEQ

T4 3+sv

Sniper Rifle

Wounds inflicted : 3.750

Wound taken after saves : 2.083

Rail Rifle

Wounds inflicted: 6.250

Wounds taken after saves: 6.250

T4 2+sv

Sniper Rifle:

Wounds inflicted : 3.750

Wounds after saves : 1.667

Rail Rifle:

Wounds inflicted: 3.750
Wounds after saves : 1.042

Rapid firing sniper rifles (at 24" too!):

T4 2+sv

Hits: 15.000

Wounds inflicted : 7.500

Wounds after saves : 3.333

T4 3+sv

Hits: 15.000

Wounds inflicted : 7.500

Wounds after saves : 4.167

Old Rail rifles were heavy 1, iirc, so no calculations for those.

New Rail rifles are rapid fire though, strangely enough.

What was the range of old rail rifle anyway?

You missed one important point, the drones nolonger have Rail Rifles but Longshot Pulse Rifles. So they get the all the pulse weapon boosts. In 12" on an Ethereal, make that 3 shots at 24"