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The only thing I want to contribute to this discussion: Mozart was not blind.

The immature or undisciplined human mind is apparently inclined toward a fantastic rather than a mundane explanation of events. David Hume wrote eloquently on how the human mind, when unguarded is easily captivated by myth and superstition.

"Chased from the open country, these robbers fly into the forest and lie in wait to break in upon every unguarded avenue of the mind, and overwhelm it with religious fears and prejudices. The stoutest antagonist, if he remit his watch a moment, is oppressed, and many through cowardice and folly, open the gates to the enemies and willingly receive them with reverence and submission as their legal sovereigns."

Some people on this thread need to read more Hume and less new age bs.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also known that President Reagan made use of astrologists throughout his two terms.

Said president also believed in an invisible man in the sky, so he shouldn't really be brought up as an example of a rational person.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also known that President Reagan made use of astrologists throughout his two terms.

Said president also believed in an invisible man in the sky, so he shouldn't really be brought up as an example of a rational person.

Reagan was a popular man but he really was not all that bright. He certainly did not have a scientific mind and then of course there was that whole Star Wars Defense shield idea he put forth. In fairness though I think the astrologer was due to Nancy Reagan more than the president. I am sure Jefferson would have been embarassed that someone in the office of the President was consulting an astrologer.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also known that President Reagan made use of astrologists throughout his two terms.

Said president also believed in an invisible man in the sky, so he shouldn't really be brought up as an example of a rational person.

To be fair, most of the planet believes in this same thing to some extent or another, including a very large number of scientists.

JWhex wrote:
The immature or undisciplined human mind is apparently inclined toward a fantastic rather than a mundane explanation of events. David Hume wrote eloquently on how the human mind, when unguarded is easily captivated by myth and superstition.

"Chased from the open country, these robbers fly into the forest and lie in wait to break in upon every unguarded avenue of the mind, and overwhelm it with religious fears and prejudices. The stoutest antagonist, if he remit his watch a moment, is oppressed, and many through cowardice and folly, open the gates to the enemies and willingly receive them with reverence and submission as their legal sovereigns."

Some people on this thread need to read more Hume and less new age bs.

This thread is not about belief... it is about what your government and corporations are vested in

karandras15 wrote:

JWhex wrote:
The immature or undisciplined human mind is apparently inclined toward a fantastic rather than a mundane explanation of events. David Hume wrote eloquently on how the human mind, when unguarded is easily captivated by myth and superstition.

"Chased from the open country, these robbers fly into the forest and lie in wait to break in upon every unguarded avenue of the mind, and overwhelm it with religious fears and prejudices. The stoutest antagonist, if he remit his watch a moment, is oppressed, and many through cowardice and folly, open the gates to the enemies and willingly receive them with reverence and submission as their legal sovereigns."

Some people on this thread need to read more Hume and less new age bs.

This thread is not about belief... it is about what your government and corporations are vested in

I believe you need to reread the OP and most of the thread.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also known that President Reagan made use of astrologists throughout his two terms.

Said president also believed in an invisible man in the sky, so he shouldn't really be brought up as an example of a rational person.

People that believe in unproven things aren't rational?


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JWhex wrote:

karandras15 wrote:

JWhex wrote:
The immature or undisciplined human mind is apparently inclined toward a fantastic rather than a mundane explanation of events. David Hume wrote eloquently on how the human mind, when unguarded is easily captivated by myth and superstition.

"Chased from the open country, these robbers fly into the forest and lie in wait to break in upon every unguarded avenue of the mind, and overwhelm it with religious fears and prejudices. The stoutest antagonist, if he remit his watch a moment, is oppressed, and many through cowardice and folly, open the gates to the enemies and willingly receive them with reverence and submission as their legal sovereigns."

Some people on this thread need to read more Hume and less new age bs.

This thread is not about belief... it is about what your government and corporations are vested in

I believe you need to reread the OP and most of the thread.

The existence of psykers in our time?

 Psienesis wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also known that President Reagan made use of astrologists throughout his two terms.

Said president also believed in an invisible man in the sky, so he shouldn't really be brought up as an example of a rational person.

To be fair, most of the planet believes in this same thing to some extent or another, including a very large number of scientists.

Doesn't make it any more rational, nor any more true. This is the logical fallacy of Appeal to Popularity.


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karandras15 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also known that President Reagan made use of astrologists throughout his two terms.

Said president also believed in an invisible man in the sky, so he shouldn't really be brought up as an example of a rational person.

People that believe in unproven things aren't rational?

Depending on your definition of "unproven", of course not.

OK, we've reached the point where someone is trying to equate all possible meanings of the word "belief" in order to bring nonsense up to the same level as scientific inquiry, it only goes downhill from here, I'm offski.

I'm not bringing the nonsense up to that level...governments corporations, highly qualified doctors, military officials and scientists are...

Take it up with your own perceived reality, or challenge them of theirs

 Yodhrin wrote:
OK, we've reached the point where someone is trying to equate all possible meanings of the word "belief" in order to bring nonsense up to the same level as scientific inquiry, it only goes downhill from here, I'm offski.

It reached that point in the first page, sadly.

karandras15 wrote:
I'm not bringing the nonsense up to that level...governments corporations, highly qualified doctors, military officials and scientists are...

Take it up with your own perceived reality, or challenge them of theirs

Ah, a Xaoist. You know that perceived reality is a personal and subjective experience, right? You're not convincing anyone of anything here, there is no government, big corporations, highly-qualified doctors, military officials or scientists. The personal, subjective reality construct is exactly that: Personal. There is no entity but the Self, and all that it perceives is a construction of itself. The only conspiracy going on here is the Self's paranoia and persecution complex.

In fact, there is no "us" to convince anything of, we are simply ghosts in the machine, figments of the Self's doubts and questions. Want to change the world, change your Self.

I agree 100% with everything you said...except your second sentence is false...either a lie or just ignorance...

Melissia will back me up, there are all sorts of quacks that have had their hands in researching psychic phenomenon... specifically I am referring to remote viewing.

And those quacks are previously mentioned... you can say rational people do not believe in this, but scientific methods have been performed and people more brilliant than war hammer players believe it is worth research, or contracting for work.




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Of course that doesn't mean they are rational...so whoever brought that term up may be correct as well

In a Subjective Reality, nothing exists that is not created by the individual creating the subjective reality. If that individual does not perceive it, it doesn't exist. As has been said, nothing is true, everything is permitted.

I'm fond of the ostrich theory

 Psienesis wrote:
In a Subjective Reality, nothing exists that is not created by the individual creating the subjective reality. If that individual does not perceive it, it doesn't exist. As has been said, nothing is true, everything is permitted.

A worthless philosophy, since either the individual perceives what they wish to perceive, in which case I'm right, or the entire world is an illusion created by one person's mind, which from my perspective is mine, and so I'm still right. Without the foundation of an objective reality which we can investigate through inter-subjective examination, any discussion about anything in any field is pointless; congratulations Dakka, you've managed to exemplify the reason rational physicists dislike philosophers twice in a single week.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
In a Subjective Reality, nothing exists that is not created by the individual creating the subjective reality. If that individual does not perceive it, it doesn't exist. As has been said, nothing is true, everything is permitted.

A worthless philosophy, since either the individual perceives what they wish to perceive, in which case I'm right, or the entire world is an illusion created by one person's mind, which from my perspective is mine, and so I'm still right. Without the foundation of an objective reality which we can investigate through inter-subjective examination, any discussion about anything in any field is pointless; congratulations Dakka, you've managed to exemplify the reason rational physicists dislike philosophers twice in a single week.

Irrational physicist= a quantum mechanic

Quantum mechanics is not irrational.

This threat is all over the place now.

It seems everyone forgot the OP was just fun food for thought.

It was very bland and watered down thought-food, though.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
This threat is all over the place now.

It seems everyone forgot the OP was just fun food for thought.

Sadly it have devolved into "i want this fantasy to be true!" and other similar "pesudo-dissusions" its not a disscussion, its a attempt to "convert" into the same mindset, no amount of arguments and supplied proof or sources is going to stop this "conversion"...

merely "everyone is wrong but me" mindset that believes oneself is the only "unaffected" by the conspiracy of misinformation and claim everyone else to be "sheep" that follow information blindly.

quite common in "discussions" on the internet i am afraid.

 Melissia wrote:
Quantum mechanics is not irrational.

You mean teleportation and transmitting information faster than light via entanglement isn't hocus pocus?




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 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
This threat is all over the place now.

It seems everyone forgot the OP was just fun food for thought.

It really can't be fun food for thought if people accept it as reality, now can it?

karandras15 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Quantum mechanics is not irrational.

You mean teleportation and transmitting information faster than light via entanglement isn't hocus pocus?

No. It is generally confusing as hell to anyone who doesn't know a thing about it or most of the basic concepts the ideas themselves are based on but quantum physics, mechanics and even chromodynamics are niot generally irrational

karandras15 wrote:

It really can't be fun food for thought if people accept it as reality, now can it?

I think the intent of the thread was for us to discuss IF such dangerous inviduals were walking the earth today, even with a lvl 1 psyker it could be devestating if they had the same powers supplied in the codex and BRB.

As for fluff purposes a lvl 4 would basically be able to dominate a solar system by his/her mind alone.

However, in this thread it went onto the topic if such psykers could even exsist even in theory, so far there is no proof that this is doable in the current state of the technological advances, wouldnt suprise me that "psykers" could exsist in the future but not in the "magical" sense discussed currently, but however by a technological devices that allows a "psyker" to control powers with its mind.

Possibly by a mass of nano machines controlled by the mind that could make energy and unleash it in different ways.

This should have been such a fun thread.

"Which historical figures might have been psykers? What would their powers be?"

But it took a weird turn early on. As far as the current discussion, I will just add: "magic" is just science that we don't yet understand. Even if telepathy, teleportation, etc. cannot possibly be natural, inborn abilities, we may yet achieve them through technology.

Level 4 psykers would hang out in the second foundation, kicking mules around


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ashrog wrote:
This should have been such a fun thread.

"Which historical figures might have been psykers? What would their powers be?"

But it took a weird turn early on. As far as the current discussion, I will just add: "magic" is just science that we don't yet understand. Even if telepathy, teleportation, etc. cannot possibly be natural, inborn abilities, we may yet achieve them through technology.

The nerds have already teleported stuff (albeit quantumly)...it is "natural" (assuming by natural you mean we've done it...otherwise naturally, all things conceivable are probable)

Wow, this thread went haywire since I last posted. Some good points, some bad points, lots of bashings.

My original point was that main stream science does not recognize psychic phenomena, yet fringe science does. There is quite a long history of the scientific method being applied to "super natural" effects, mostly with marginal results. Let's look at one: Dowsing.

Dowsing is scientifically provable, repeatable, and most importantly, learnable. Most people have to the ability to learn how to dowse water. Like any other ability, it takes instruction and practice. A talent for it helps, but isn't actually necessary. My father dowses, which is how I learned about it. Although, truth to tell, I'm not all that good at it.

Among other things I've learned to do via study is removing pain from myself and others. I learned how to do this by reading up on the very well documented science (at least in Russia) of strengthening your personal bio-electrical field. I came across this in a book written on how to quit smoking/addictions. Since I began the exercises, I've been able to feel electrical current from a distance, to the point that I can now trance electrical wiring in a house through the drywall, as well as feel the pressure of high-power lines without being able to see them. Anyone can learn to do this. I've used it quite successfully for over 20 years as an electrical engineer.

As to removing pain, again this is learnable, repeatable, and provable. At the time I learn how to do this, I had never heard of Reiki, yet further studying on my part has lead me to conclude the technique is similar (what is known as Level 1 Reiki). It is provable and repeatable in that I can localize and remove the pain in another without them being aware that that is what I am doing (i.e., no placebo effect). Is it measurable with scientific instrumentation? Sort of. You can measure the increase electrical field, and you can use the current patient-use pain charts doctors use to measure pain.

I'm not claiming to be a psyker, psychic, faith healer or whatever. I'm stating that what I've posted above falls under fringe science because it is not accepted by main stream science and peer review. And no, I'm not going post web links or cite sources, so take my post as anecdotal evidence if you will.

SJ

I think I might be a psyker, or at least hold the latent gene.

I mean I'm always just doing my thing, then my mind wanders and I might remember a Simpsons episode I haven't seen in yonks and then within the next few days I'll be channel surfing and lo and behold it will be on.

Last week I was thinking of a scene where Homer and Marge are in court trying to sue the sea captain because he threw them out an all you can eat. Lo and behold the next day I tune in to T4 whilst eating my lunch and that very episode was on. And this isn't a one off or has happened a coupled of times, this happens all the time.

Don't get me wrong. I'm fully aware it's the most Websters power in the world. But in 38,000 years my ancestors will be snapping titans in half with their minds.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
It was very bland and watered down thought-food, though.

U mad, bro?

Serious Melissia is serious...I was goofing the other guy being serious that said "rational physicists" by saying in a tongue in cheek manner that quantum physics has been forced in a closet for years by people that touted "if you can't prove it, it doesn't exist"...

And now we are teleporting stuff...

And through quantum mechanics it appears very likely that all things conceivable are probable (albeit terrible odds--enter Han Solo)...potentially making all skeptics technically wrong, no matter what topic is challenged. That's a terrible universe to live in as Doubting Thomas, because disproving turns into "highly unlikely". We're not just conjugating verbs anymore, it's a little complex.

So anytime someone calls you a fool for speculating , even for fun, I take that as a very serious challenge to inform them they are likely wrong...well, probably wrong anyway.