Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Manchu**

Compel wrote:
I see the Imperial Fists and Dorn as being the main avatar of the slide of the Imperial of the 30th Millennium to the Imperial of the 41st

Yep, that is precisely what the BT are.

**Just Dave**

Manchu wrote:
I've never gotten the impression that WS wear their hearts on their sleeves like UM and IF. Alph could be right that it's just marketing hyperbole but from a out-of-setting perspective the statement is true. The only legions we know less about are II and XI.

It would be dumb to depict the UM, IF, SW, BA, or Sallies on the edge of rebellion. Thankfully, it hasn't happened -- despite certain interpretations of Guilliman.

I like the idea of their divided loyalties - in contrast to Alph - but their being the most "enigmatic or elusive" is not true from an out-of-setting or in-setting perspective, IMHO.

From an in-setting perspective, the Alpha Legion or even Dark Angels are the most enigmatic/elusive.

From an out-of-universe setting the Scars are simply one of the least covered.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could also say Sigismund is a bit of betrayal for the Imperial Fists.

**Pilau Rice**

Alpharius wrote:
I guess my main problem is that up until now, the loyalty of the White Scars has never been up for debate - not even a little, or a hint.

But then, yeah, we didn't really know all that much of them - besides their excellent Index Astartes article, of course.

And there was no hint at a lack of loyalty in that, even if it was rather bare, why can't the Scars be as loyal as the Wolves or Fists now like they always have been.

BL, stop adding stuff I don't like

Just Dave wrote:

I like the idea of their divided loyalties - in contrast to Alph - but their being the most "enigmatic or elusive" is not true from an out-of-setting or in-setting perspective, IMHO.

From an in-setting perspective, the Alpha Legion or even Dark Angels are the most enigmatic/elusive.

Indeed, they are elusive in the way that you can't hold them down for long I guess, as they seem to zip about but they aren't in the way as the DA or AL, they seem to be be a pretty cut and dry Legion.

**Manchu**

Just Dave wrote:
From an out-of-universe setting the Scars are simply one of the least covered, but not the most enigmatic or elusive.

We must be thinking about this very differently. All I mean is, we know hardly anything about the WS. We have a much better sense of every other Legion (minus II and XI) -- so, given their usual definitions, words like enigmatic and elusive certainly apply from the perspective of info available to fans.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:
why can't the Scars be as loyal as the Wolves or Fists now like they always have been

Even before the HH series, there was never any question that the IF were the most loyal of all the Legions -- in that they had no other agenda whatsoever (at least from their own perspective) than to faithfully serve the Emperor. The other Legions, by contrast, can be said to have "cultural" priorities that do not preclude loyalty. The IF culture IS loyalty.

**Alpharius**

Well, we know a little bit:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ws.html

Index Astartes wrote:The historian, Carpinus, who compiled a detailed history of the Great Crusade (the so-called Speculum Historiale), notes that Jaghatai`s armies finished the destruction of the Palatine`s realm a mere six months before the Emperor reached Chogoris. When the two men met, it is said that the Khan knew he had met someone who embodied the ultimate ideal he had striven for, a man who could unite all the stars in the sky. At his palace in the city of Quan Zhou, in front of all his generals, he dropped to one knee and swore eternal fealty to the Emperor. The Primarch was given command of the 5th Legion, which adopted the long facial scars of the Talaskr tribesmen that ran from forehead to chin, and renamed themselves the White Scars. The Great Khan ascended to the heavens with the emperor, passing the Khanship to his general Ogedei. Many of Jaghatai`s followers elected to join their Khan and became Space Marines within Legion.

I guess in this newer version, he might have become disillusioned and...changed his mind.

I am willing to give it all the benefit of the doubt, and wait for Cincy's spoiler-free review in 12 weeks.

**Just Dave**

Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
From an out-of-universe setting the Scars are simply one of the least covered, but not the most enigmatic or elusive.
We must be thinking about this very differently. All I mean is, we know hardly anything about the WS. We have a much better sense of every other Legion (minus II and XI) -- so, given their usual definitions, words like enigmatic and elusive certainly apply from the perspective of info available to fans.

Yeah, just seems to be different interpretations: going back to Alph seeing it as hyperbole, or me seeing it as due to BL/GW's own lack of coverage.

**Pilau Rice**

So that makes the Wolves less loyal to the All father then, because of their different outlook on stuff.

**Manchu**

Alpharius wrote:
I guess in this newer version, he might have become disillusioned and...changed his mind.

A few of them did, you know.

Anyway, I'm not sure it's the case that the Great Khan is having doubts so much as some of his Legionnaires.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:
So that makes the Wolves less loyal to the All father then, because of their different outlook on stuff.

In a sense. As you point out, they are loyal to the Allfather rather than the Emperor. Put it another way, they are loyal to their conception of the Emperor. So was Horus, for a time. Now, you may argue that the IF have their own conception of the Emperor that is no more objective than the SW's -- and I won't argue with you there. The IF are a troubled bunch. But I will say, that's not how they see themselves. They have no terms like "Allfather" standing between them and the Emperor.

**Pilau Rice**

Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me, they are loyal to the Emperor as he and the All Father are one and the same.

**Azreal13**

Pilau Rice wrote:
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me, they are loyal to the Emperor as he and the All Father are one and the same.

Interesting debating point, are you being loyal if you believe your loyalty is to some thing else, even if they are essentially or actually the same entity/belief/whatever?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Theophony wrote:
It won't be that expensive if by chapter four you realize you hate: the author, the style of writing, the storyline, or just the price tag. You can off yourself or the serial and no more fuss.

By that time, you could have bought the MMPB for the same money when it comes out, and at least have the option of finishing it in the future.

**cincydooley**

azreal13 wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me, they are loyal to the Emperor as he and the All Father are one and the same.

Interesting debating point, are you being loyal if you believe your loyalty is to some thing else, even if they are essentially or actually the same entity/belief/whatever?

Yeah, well the Space Wolves listen to like, none of the Emperors edicts beyond when he tells them to censure someone.

Edict at Nikea? Ignored.

Also interesting that they 'worship' the allfather (ostensibly the Emperor) and dont get reprimanded, while Lorgar and his sons get the smack in the dick from Guilliman.

**Azreal13**

Didn't they ignore the edict because they didn't believe their Runepriests actually were psykers?

Seem to remember something in the old 2nd Ed book about that, don't know if it carried forwards.

**jah-joshua**

i think that the Khan having internal strife in the legion could be interesting...
having some his own men loyal to Horus, while he is loyal to the Emperor, makes for an interesting, tense, dilema...
if everyone was good and loyal, there wouldn't be much of a story to tell, just more bolter porn...
i am enjoying all the new twists, instead of just rehashing the last 25 years of published material...

cheers
jah

**Manchu**

Pilau Rice wrote:
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me

It can be pretty important. Think of the AdMech: they're not loyal to the Emperor but rather to the Omnissiah. Therefore, those who do not believe he is the Omnissiah ...

**Alpharius**

jah-joshua wrote:
i think that the Khan having internal strife in the legion could be interesting...
having some his own men loyal to Horus, while he is loyal to the Emperor, makes for an interesting, tense, dilema...
if everyone was good and loyal, there wouldn't be much of a story to tell, just more bolter porn...
i am enjoying all the new twists, instead of just rehashing the last 25 years of published material...

cheers
jah

That's one way of looking at it...

**Azreal13**

jah-joshua wrote:
i think that the Khan having internal strife in the legion could be interesting...
having some his own men loyal to Horus, while he is loyal to the Emperor, makes for an interesting, tense, dilema...
if everyone was good and loyal, there wouldn't be much of a story to tell, just more bolter porn...
i am enjoying all the new twists, instead of just rehashing the last 25 years of published material...

cheers
jah

With you on this, as long as they continue the MMPB format, and avoid any more ludicrous breaks in releases, I'm content to enjoy the journey. This is literally telling the story that underpins the 40K universe as we know it, and that I have personally known for two thirds of my life, and a quarter century all told. The Heresy used to be nothing more than snippets and rumours shown through the lens of 10,000 years of history and superstition, now we have insights to the characters and personalities behind the events, even dialogue featuring the Emperor himself!

I'm sure there is a line they could cross with too much prevarication, but they're not there yet.

(I've just finished and thoroughly enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, so I'm on a bit of a Heresy high at the moment!)

**Manchu**

If nothing else, everyone needs more practice before writing about the Siege of Terra. And more time to establish the plot lines and characterization that will make it truly epic.

**Alfndrate**

azreal13 wrote:Didn't they ignore the edict because they didn't believe their Runepriests actually were psykers?

Seem to remember something in the old 2nd Ed book about that, don't know if it carried forwards.

In Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns they talk about how the Rune Priests powers of the Wyrd come from Fenris and not from the Warp like Psykers. So the conclusions we can legally make is that they are not Psykers. Though we as readers know this to be false.

jah-joshua wrote:i think that the Khan having internal strife in the legion could be interesting...
having some his own men loyal to Horus, while he is loyal to the Emperor, makes for an interesting, tense, dilema...
if everyone was good and loyal, there wouldn't be much of a story to tell, just more bolter porn...
i am enjoying all the new twists, instead of just rehashing the last 25 years of published material...

cheers
jah

Spoiler:

**Manchu**

Alfndrate wrote:
In Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns they talk about how the Rune Priests powers of the Wyrd come from Fenris and not from the Warp like Psykers. So the conclusions we can legally make is that they are not Psykers. Though we as readers know this to be false.

You have to read it like a lawyer.

Manchu wrote:
His explicit command, at least in A Thousand Sons was that no Legion would maintain a Librarius Department. According to the strict letter of the Edict, therefore, whether a Codex Chapter might do so was not actually decided since Codex Chapters did not then exist except in Guilliman's mind. Some people use this as evidence for Guilliman being disloyal but that seems weak to me, as well. This is also probably how Russ could get away with still deploying psykers since he didn't seem to maintain a "Librarius Department." We have no evidence that Russ was disloyal or that the Emperor knew/cared about SW psykers.

Which reminds me -- Khan worked with Magnus to establish the Libarius structure. There are likely WS that rankle at the Edict, something now SW would care about one way or the other.

**Alfndrate**

Manchu wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
In Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns they talk about how the Rune Priests powers of the Wyrd come from Fenris and not from the Warp like Psykers. So the conclusions we can legally make is that they are not Psykers. Though we as readers know this to be false.
You have to read it like a lawyer.
Manchu wrote:
His explicit command, at least in A Thousand Sons was that no Legion would maintain a Librarius Department. According to the strict letter of the Edict, therefore, whether a Codex Chapter might do so was not actually decided since Codex Chapters did not then exist except in Guilliman's mind. Some people use this as evidence for Guilliman being disloyal but that seems weak to me, as well. This is also probably how Russ could get away with still deploying psykers since he didn't seem to maintain a "Librarius Department." We have no evidence that Russ was disloyal or that the Emperor knew/cared about SW psykers.

I mean the Space Wolves did kind of play it RAW

**Manchu**

With the words of the Emperor, is there any other way? We have to assume he said exactly what he meant.

**cincydooley**

@Az - Yeah, they don't believe their runepriests are psykers. Which is kinda hilarious, of course.

And the White Scars, in Brotherhood, seem to be ignoring the whole Nikean edict as well.

And in Vulkan Lives there's some more loyalist ignoring of the Nikean edict, too.

Wait a second.. is there anyone ACTUALLY listening to that thing?

**Alfndrate**

cincydooley wrote:
@Az - Yeah, they don't believe their runepriests are psykers. Which is kinda hilarious, of course.

And the White Scars, in Brotherhood, seem to be ignoring the whole Nikean edict as well.

And in Vulkan Lives there's some more loyalist ignoring of the Nikean edict, too.

Wait a second.. is there anyone ACTUALLY listening to that thing?

Well there were the Thousand So....

But let's not forget the Ultramari...

I know! The Khorne loving World Ea...

Surely we can count on the Imperial Fis...

NOPE!

Must just be the Word Bearers

**Manchu**

Remember, the edict only disbands Libarius departments and directs former members of said departments back to the line companies and forbids them to use psychic powers. It's actually quite narrow. According to the wording of the Edict, it's not psykers that are the problem -- it's the Libarius program developed by Magnus, Khan, and Sanguinius.

**Just Dave**

jah-joshua wrote:
i think that the Khan having internal strife in the legion could be interesting...
having some his own men loyal to Horus, while he is loyal to the Emperor, makes for an interesting, tense, dilema...
if everyone was good and loyal, there wouldn't be much of a story to tell, just more bolter porn...
i am enjoying all the new twists, instead of just rehashing the last 25 years of published material...

cheers
jah

I agree. I think Scars sounds like it has the potential to be the best HH book in a long time, when I eventually read it.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Maybe the Scars have some internal division that doesn't involve loyalty to The Emperor.

**Ilmarinen**

Alpharius wrote:
I guess my main problem is that up until now, the loyalty of the White Scars has never been up for debate - not even a little, or a hint.

But then, yeah, we didn't really know all that much of them - besides their excellent Index Astartes article, of course.

Actually, there has always been a huge question about the White Scars - why did they remain loyal?

Horus expected The Khan to side with him. He was convinced - he states it outright in the fluff. But he was wrong - and Horus does not make that many mistakes. He manipulates and outmanoeuvres the best of the loyalist Primarchs, but completely misreads The Khan.

And what a mistake it turns out to be - The Khan's Legion is one of the three that are critical to the defence of Terra. If Horus had been right, and The Khan had joined him as he expected, the Siege would have been over before it began - the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels would not have been able to hold on their own, and Horus would have won.

So, there are some major questions that need answering about The Khan. Yes, he remains loyal, and plays a key role in the Siege, but why? And why was Horus so very very wrong about him?

**Alpharius**

Major questions since when?

Since this new HH series?

Index Astartes wrote:The White Scars Space Marines hold true to the vision of Jaghatai Khan in the ultimate unification of Humanity. They venerate the Emperor as the ultimate Uniter and as their founding father, but not as a deity.

Granted, BL is absolutely bringing a lot to the table, and filling in a lot of holes, gaps, etc.

But I certainly don't remember and pre-BL HH series fluff about any of that!

**BrookM**

Didn't you know? They're ~~making it up~~ retconning this as they go!

**Just Dave**

Yeah, as Manchu said, there's far from always been a huge question over the Khan's loyalty: thats only recently been introduced, whether you see it as retconning or simply expansion.

As to why Khan stays loyal, I think it would interesting if it was something as tenuous as simply honour: that he agrees with Horus, but sides with the Big E for honour. Then again, it may only be his Legion, rather than Khan, that has tenuous loyalties...