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< Taken by the void dragon. >

MrMoustaffa wrote:You take Leman Russes because they're stupid cheap. etc.

Yes, but an exterminator costs the same price, and does more damage to basically everything.

Plus, I've found that there is actually somewhat of a diminishing return when it comes to AV14, having spammed 5 of them at 1850 point games. If you don't give them a lot of firepower, though, then they something far, far worse - ignorable.

Spending 450 points for basically 3 autocannon HWSs of firepower is a lot of points spent on not very much killing power. Basically, you're spending ogryn-like points for worse than ogryn-like firepower, on a unit that can't even get into close combat, like ogryn.

ph34r wrote:Is that punisher really worth 225p? For that price I could have a Colossus and a Hydra.

Neither of which are a serious threat to vehicles (well, except AV10 skimmers), terminators, or monstrous creatures. It's not even all that good against hordes either.

In any case, there are serious gaps in that setup's killing power. A multimelta/lascannon punisher can handle anything.

It is also extremely slow, short ranged, and all its weapons have different range bands and preferred targets. I understand you are an experienced IG player but I have a hard time believing that is truly a powerful unit; it seems expensive, unfocused, slow, and short ranged. Why not get your anti vehicle firepower from lascannons and meltas? Why not get your anti terminator/MC from plasma guns? Those seem like preferred options to 3 "wounds on 2+, no armor" shots that can't benefit from orders on a 225p body.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, but an exterminator costs the same price, and does more damage to basically everything.

But you aren't shooting at everything. Being mediocre at lots of different things (which the LR Exterminator is) just means that no matter what you're shooting at you're not contributing much. The LRBT is mediocre at most things but at least it has situations where it's useful.

Basically, you're spending ogryn-like points for worse than ogryn-like firepower, on a unit that can't even get into close combat, like ogryn.

Who cares about close combat? You want to avoid close combat, paying points for a paper-thin unit instead of an AV 14 one because it sucks a bit less in close combat is hardly a good idea.

A multimelta/lascannon punisher can handle anything.

If by "handle" you mean "roll dice against" then sure. If you mean "be effective against" then not really. The MM/LC Punisher is mediocre against hordes (since you threw away half your shots compared to the HB/HB setup), awful against vehicles, and awful against elite infantry. IG win games by picking a role and specializing in it, not by taking generalist units that always waste half their weapons when they shoot.

I'd like to note that it's particularly bad against T5 multi-wound units like Biker Nobz, Grotesques or Chaos Spawn. (The latter are especially problematic if they can claim a cover save). In short, your high strength weapons aren't sufficient to inflict instant death, and your moderate strength weapons aren't inflicting enough wounds to be meaningful -- much less enough to justify a 225 point investment.

MATH
(Assumptions: Target within 24", Hull/Sponson weapons can draw LoS to target. Naturally, turrets can rotate freely.)

Punisher Cannon: 20 shots, 4+ hit, 4+ wound, 4+ save, FNP.
20*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 5/3
LC+2xMM: 3 shots, 4+ hit, 2+ wound, 4+ save, FNP.
3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 5/12

Sum = 5/3 + 5/12 = 2.08 wounds. One dead nob.

Russes, by design, aren't really fantastic generalists. The ones that throw pie plates aren't firing their sponsons effectively, their turret weapons are mostly geared toward one type of threat, and the hull weapons are a crapshoot. The only Russ that I'd argue really does the generalist thing is the Executioner with bolters, but it's just too many damn points if there aren't Terminators to aim it at.

If you want a true generalist unit, you want a Manticore. 1-3 pie plates a turn, S10 will ID T5 multiwound models and strip hull points nicely, and you can hide the thing.

Peregrine wrote:The LRBT is mediocre at most things but at least it has situations where it's useful.

Exactly one situation - marines clustered in the open.

The exterminator cannon is better or equal for everything else. Battlecannons are just crappy in this edition.

Peregrine wrote:IG win games by picking a role and specializing in it, not by taking generalist units that always waste half their weapons when they shoot.

That's because most guard units can't be truly versatile. Russes can.

Peregrine wrote:The MM/LC Punisher is mediocre against hordes (since you threw away half your shots compared to the HB/HB setup), awful against vehicles, and awful against elite infantry.

ph34r wrote:It is also extremely slow, short ranged, and all its weapons have different range bands and preferred targets.

But then you do the math. Yes, they're bad against biker nobz, but look at everything else.

Against terminators you have both weight of fire, AND 3 AP2 or better weapons. Not only does this mean that you've got a lot going against terminators, but you also have different Ap types, so you can have your opponent take armor saves on storm shield models first. Against marines, they're likewise really not bad, killing roughly 4 a turn, and the punisher cannon means that those cover saves that the long fangs were relying on doesn't matter. Against light vehicles, you have 20 S10 shots AND lascannons and multimeltas. Against heavier stuff, you have multimeltas and a lascannon. Against hordes, the punisher cannon is still the best option, and it's not like multimeltas can't hurt them either, and monstrous creatures fall into the same category as terminators.

The multimetla-lascannon punisher is a very rare thing in the guard codex - it can do many things well. On an AV14 chassis. With lower carrier costs.

 Ailaros wrote:
Exactly one situation - marines clustered in the open.

The exterminator cannon is better or equal for everything else. Battlecannons are just crappy in this edition.

Equal or better doesn't mean good. LRBTs are bad at most things but occasionally really good. LR Exterminators are bad at all things. The fact that they're slightly less bad at most of those things doesn't make up for the fact that they're never good.

That's because most guard units can't be truly versatile. Russes can.

Being versatile doesn't mean being mediocre at several things, it means being awesome at several things. Vendettas are versatile. MM/LC Punishers are just mediocre.

Against terminators you have both weight of fire, AND 3 AP2 or better weapons.

This isn't a good thing.

Not only does this mean that you've got a lot going against terminators, but you also have different Ap types, so you can have your opponent take armor saves on storm shield models first.

Considering how rare mixed TH/SS terminator units are this is highly overrated.

Against marines, they're likewise really not bad, killing roughly 4 a turn

Err, no. Please stop rounding up your numbers to "justify" your choices. You average 3.47 dead MEQs in the open, or 3.05 in 5+ cover.

And considering the fact that the punisher cannon Vulture averages 4.4 dead MEQs for 70 points less this is pathetic firepower.

and the punisher cannon means that those cover saves that the long fangs were relying on doesn't matter.

Who cares? Long fangs have 48" weapons and deploy at the back of the table, LR Punishers have 24" weapons. By the time you're able to get into range of them the game is already over.

Against heavier stuff, you have multimeltas and a lascannon.

At BS 3. For 225 points. IF you can get both sponsons to fire at the same target.

Meanwhile the Vendetta costs 130 points, has similar firepower, better accuracy, hits tanks from across the table, shoots down aircraft just as well as ground targets, and carries a squad to an objective while it's doing that. And did I mention the fact that it costs 95 points less?

^I have to agree with Peregrine. I ran my buddies Space Wolf army (because I was interested in trying them out) and I play an IG player 3 times (best out of three). He had a punisher in his list, similar to how you suggest running it.

First game, it snuck up and killed a couple (3 I think) Grey Hunters before being melted apart by my Long Fangs.

Second game, it didn't last past turn 2

Third game, it managed to get to my LF's, killed 1 of them, and died next turn. The sponsons, while good on paper, weren't capable of bringing enough concentrated fire to be worth his points and it just died too fast to be worth it

Meaning, while the MM/LC Punisher looks good on paper, it brings pretty meh things to the table that can be done by other units better for cheaper (AT using a Vendetta, which you should probably be taking already, and the Punisher by a Vulture)

Peregrine wrote:Equal or better doesn't mean good. LRBTs are bad at most things but occasionally really good. LR Exterminators are bad at all things. The fact that they're slightly less bad at most of those things doesn't make up for the fact that they're never good.

But the battlecannon is only good in one extremely specific situation. I mean, ratlings are good in a tiny range of situations, but nobody takes ratlings, because ratlings are excruciatingly overspecialized. Like the battlecannon.

You can fish for those rare circumstances all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that against basically everything else you shoot at, the exterminator is better. If you want to make the argument that they're still crappy, then that's fine, but you would still be stuck with the fact that the battlecannon is crappier than crap.

Which isn't much of a reason to take one.

Peregrine wrote:Being versatile doesn't mean being mediocre at several things, it means being awesome at several things. Vendettas are versatile. MM/LC Punishers are just mediocre.

I agree on your definition of versatility, but you have it completely backwards. Three lascannons are good against some things, while three lascannons and a punisher cannon are good against everything. If the multimelta-lascannon punisher has mediocre firepower, and it has more firepower than the vendetta, then that means that the vendetta is REALLY awful.

 Ailaros wrote:
But the battlecannon is only good in one extremely specific situation.

Yeah, that "extreme" situation of the most common army type not spread out at maximum coherency (getting blown out of a transport, trying to maximize cover against your plasma vets, etc). That never happens...

And I never said the LRBT was awesome. It's not, and I don't use them. But the LRBT has a purpose, being a cheap MEQ killer, even if it's not a specialist I want in my list right now. The LR Exterminator just sucks at everything.

I agree on your definition of versatility, but you have it completely backwards. Three lascannons are good against some things, while three lascannons and a punisher cannon are good against everything. If the multimelta-lascannon punisher has mediocre firepower, and it has more firepower than the vendetta, then that means that the vendetta is REALLY awful.

That's complete nonsense.

1) The Vendetta's guns are twin-linked, so you can't just say "they both have three guns".

2) The Vendetta is 130 points, compared to 225 for the MM/LC Punisher. If you even the points the Vendetta is actually bringing 5.2 TL lascannons, or the equivalent of 7.8 single lascannons. This is FAR more firepower against vehicles/MCs, and the same firepower against elite infantry. The only situation where the MM/LC punisher has an advantage is against hordes, and you don't even take a proper anti-horde setup since you're wasting the hull and sponson guns.

3) You're ignoring the Vendetta's other advantages. The MM/LC Punisher sucks against aircraft, the Vendetta slaughters them. The MM/LC Punisher can't transport troops, the Vendetta can. The MM/LC Punisher is limited to 24" range and 6" a turn of movement, the Vendetta has cross-table range and 18-36" movement.

In short, in pretty much every situation you can think of spending equal points on Vendettas and punisher cannon Vultures will give you far, far better results than MM/LC LR Punishers. The only reason to take the tank is if you're playing a special game of Ailaros 40k where Vendettas and Vultures are banned.

You are neglecting the fact that point cost matters.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you pretend that a multi-melta is as good as a lascannon. In reality, they're not even close -- but it makes my analysis easier. So your cute little Russ has three "lascannons." Meanwhile, a Vendetta also gets three lascannons. But they're twin-linked, so I get 50% more firepower for my purchase. Or more, since a Vendetta has a reasonable chance at hitting side armor. But let's call it 50%.

Likewise, a Punisher turret gets 20 S5 shots at BS3. So 10 hits. A Vulture gets 20 twin-linked shots, plus an additional heavy bolter, all at BS4 (strafing run). That's 19.8 hits (with a little AP4 thrown in). So I'm getting 100% more firepower for that purchase. And as a nice extra, they also have the Pinning USR.

Your Russ costs 225 points. These fliers cost 285 points, or about 27% more. For that investment, they get:

Over 50% more anti-tank firepower.

100% more anti-infantry firepower.

Selective Skyfire USR, so your weaponry actually has a reasonable chance of doing something to an enemy flyer.

Hard to Hit USR, which reduces most firepower by 67-75%.

The Jink USR during evasive maneuvers.

Complete immunity to blast and template weaponry.

Complete immunity to close combat.

The durability of having two units instead of one. Twice as many hull points, not completely disabled by stun effects, etc.

The ability to move 18-36" instead of 0-6". You know, so their 24" weapons can get in range.

Transport capacity, complete with both hover and grav chute deployment.

Vector Dancer for their punisher turret -- so if you insist on using that S5 weaponry on vehicles, it will actually hit rear armor and do some good.

The ability to split-fire and shoot anti-tank weapons at tanks, and anti-infantry weapons at infantry.

They lose:

AV14-13-11 for AV12-12-10.

Smoke launchers.

Tank USR (but no ramming).

But hey, at least you could spend another 50 points on Pask. He'll totally make up the difference!

I fail to understand why anyone is arguing that two of the most cost efficient units in the game are well...cost efficient.

You guys must love banging your heads against brick walls.

Wait the exterminator is good against one enemy...D Eldar skimmers. Not as good as a hydra but still pretty good.

Moving on the exterminator is not a great tank and neither is the battle tank. The entire argument spins down to the best of squarely mediocre. It is fun to read but ultimately of little use.

The specialist tanks are pretty good but the leman russ' in general suffer from a low fire power to pts ratio due to the price they pay for front AV14.

Has anyone here actually used the MM/Las punisher tank with at least 2x in the list? As we all know 1x anything in guard is terrible and will die before you can use it.

Now after all this I will put forward a point in favor for the LRBT. Under the conditions of; If you are only going to add one in, you do not have an exact idea of what you want from it, and you are in a MEQ/razorback heavy meta. Under one or more of those conditions the LRBT may work out. Under all of those conditions it could actually be a really good tank.

Peregrine wrote:In short, in pretty much every situation you can think of spending equal points on Vendettas and punisher cannon Vultures will give you far, far better results than MM/LC LR Punishers.

Punishers score on 1/6ths of the missions while vendettas don't (without going into hover mode and being easily destroyed, or ejecting a squishy squad to its fate). And they start the game on the table, while fliers may not be showing up at all until way after it's too late. And they don't care about weapons with skyfire, and don't have to worry about interceptor. And they can shove things off of an objective with tank shock, and provide cover saves to other vehicles. And they can draw off your opponent's higher strength guns from your other stuff. And they don't have the same movement restrictions, and aren't forced to fly off the board to avoid going into hover mode.

Russes are a solid unit that starts on the table, kills stuff right away, has actual board control abilities, and synergizes well with other things in the codex. Vendettas are nothing more than a few lascannon shots that show up late, leave early, and can be easily handled with skyfire wepaons (not that you even need them, I've taken plenty down with other stuff). They throw around some nuisance lascannon fire, but are otherwise ignorable.

And that's all before you consider that some people don't play with forgeworld expansions and modules. Even if your gaming group allows for that, they're still not strictly better.

ansacs wrote:Has anyone here actually used the MM/Las punisher tank with at least 2x in the list? As we all know 1x anything in guard is terrible and will die before you can use it.

Yes, I've been to a local tournament where the winner was a guard player who spammed these. In that same tournament, I brought a pair of them and tabled a draigo wing, almost entirely thanks to the punishers.

 Ailaros wrote:
Russes are a solid unit that starts on the table, kills stuff right away.

You are talking about a tank that moves no more than 6" per turn, with only a single weapon that shoots farther than 24." (One BS3 lascannon.)

 Ailaros wrote:
[Vendettas] throw around some nuisance lascannon fire, but are otherwise ignorable.

Those "nuissance lascannons" have 4.5 times the firepower of your tank outside its 24" range. If you're calling that a "nuissance," I'm calling your first-turn lascannon shot a peashooter.

 Ailaros wrote:
And they don't have the same movement restrictions, and aren't forced to fly off the board to avoid going into hover mode.

It's not my fault you can't plan ahead to avoid flying off the board. And as I pointed out in my previous post, Vultures have Vector Dancer.

 Ailaros wrote:
Russes are a solid unit that ... has actual board control abilities.

A 6" tank shock does not make for "board control." Try again.

Vendettas are nothing more than a few lascannon shots that show up late

A comms relay will give you 89% arrival by turn 2. Considering your Russ would be lucky to get within shooting range by then, anyway...

 Ailaros wrote:
In that same tournament, I brought a pair of them and tabled a draigo wing, almost entirely thanks to the punishers.

A Vendetta will kill more Paladins per shooting phase than your Russ will. And costs 42% less.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:The LRBT is mediocre at most things but at least it has situations where it's useful.

Exactly one situation - marines clustered in the open.

Surely its good against pretty much anything clustered in the open... or indeed anything clustered at all, except for 2+ saves, which are on the increase but still aren't everywhere by a long shot.

Comparing vendetta and leman russ' is kind of strange guys. There are totally different units and actually compliment each other reasonably well as the LR can act to keep you on the board turn 1 which is the tough turn for aircav.

Actually a punisher with melta/las might not be a bad mix with an aircav list as they are pretty dangerous within 24".

The vendetta without a doubt is the better purchase in a vacuum. It is considered the best unit in the game for pts/quality by most players so anything in comparison is not worth it when considered in a vacuum.

 ansacs wrote:
Comparing vendetta and leman russ' is kind of strange guys. There are totally different units and actually compliment each other reasonably well as the LR can act to keep you on the board turn 1 which is the tough turn for aircav.

Your common sense has no place in this thread!

 Ailaros wrote:
Punishers score on 1/6ths of the missions while vendettas don't (without going into hover mode and being easily destroyed, or ejecting a squishy squad to its fate).

So what? I'd much rather have a huge increase in firepower and wipe my opponent's scoring units out than a 1/6 chance to be scoring.

And they start the game on the table, while fliers may not be showing up at all until way after it's too late.

But they start the game out of range, so they have the exact same problem.

Vendettas are nothing more than a few lascannon shots that show up late, leave early, and can be easily handled with skyfire wepaons (not that you even need them, I've taken plenty down with other stuff). They throw around some nuisance lascannon fire, but are otherwise ignorable.

Lol. Have you even done the math, or is this just more of your stubborn refusal to use Vendettas?

(Hint: I did the math, and posted it for you. Vendettas are far more than "a few ignorable lascannon shots", they outgun your MM/LC Punishers by a HUGE margin. In one turn a Vendetta probably does more per-point tank killing than your MM/LC Punisher does in an entire game.)

And that's all before you consider that some people don't play with forgeworld expansions and modules. Even if your gaming group allows for that, they're still not strictly better.

Yes, we get the point, you refuse to play with good units. However, this is not Ailaros40k.com, discussions here need to be about 40k for the average player, not weird variants full of self-imposed limits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:
Comparing vendetta and leman russ' is kind of strange guys. There are totally different units and actually compliment each other reasonably well as the LR can act to keep you on the board turn 1 which is the tough turn for aircav.

The best way to stay on the board turn 1 is Sabre platoons and artillery. They keep you on the board, and hold your "home" objectives so the flyers and veterans are free to smash your opponent's half of the table. The MM/LC Punisher is actually a pretty bad way of staying on the table because it has to get up close to do anything, which puts it into an exposed position where it can take focused fire from all of your opponent's anti-tank weapons (and of course if you just want AV 14 to sit in the corner out of range a basic LRBT 70 points cheaper and even gets to shoot from that corner).

LOL I think it is great even the IG is getting nerfed by the "Well take a Vendetta instead..." While I'll agree that Vendettas/Valkyries will do more than a LRBT for less, I find it laughable that both of these cost so little that they are the panacea to all the ills of every list.

Me thinks that GW - if it had any sense - would look at this and nerf the heck out of vendettas/valkyries to up their sales of other things...

DAaddict wrote:
Me thinks that GW - if it had any sense - would look at this and nerf the heck out of vendettas/valkyries to up their sales of other things...

Or just increase the price on Vendettas. Why bother paying your artists to design new IG miniatures when you can raise the price of the Vendetta to $150?

Glad to see my thread is so popular lol.

As an alternative, is there a LR variant that is not considered mediocre and really worth taking? I have 4 Leman Russ's I try to fit a lot of them in my lists.

LRBT is getting bashed, along with the Exterminator and Punisher here lol.

Anyways, in regards to the original question.

Leman Russ Battle Tank with the Battle Cannon has performed wonderfully for me. Poor rolls effect it only so far as anything else in the game. There have been some times where I've landed clean shots smack in the middle of some marines right where I want them. Sure, it misses but when it destroys a squad of marines in one shot or even over the course of a game, always a great feeling.

I tried the exterminator for a while. I really enjoy rolling all those dice. It puts hits on most things but doesn't cause too many dangerous wounds. Its more of an annoying fly. They did pretty good against bikers for me on a couple of occasions. Most of the time its meh. Fun, though.

Anyways, I see a lot of power armor on foot in my meta, so I'm gonna go back to battle tanks. Just my 2 cents.

 Atheos wrote:
As an alternative, is there a LR variant that is not considered mediocre and really worth taking? I have 4 Leman Russ's I try to fit a lot of them in my lists.

The basic LR Demolisher (no upgrades) is cheap and efficient, and STR 10 AP 2 draws a lot of attention away from squishier things.

The LR Executioner with plasma sponsons and hull LC is expensive but amazing against elite infantry and MCs.

The LR Vanquisher with Pask, hull LCs and sponson MMs is a lethal tank killer if you really need a specialized anti-Land Raider tool.

The Thunderer is a nice alternative to the Leman Russ Demolisher, should you have the option of fielding Forgeworld units. It's a nice way to ditch that troublesome Heavy vehicle USR and save yourself some points in the process.

Peregrine might have some justification for taking the Demolisher Russ, proper. But the only stuff I can think of off-hand is the loss of turret-LoS for the demolisher cannon and increased vulnerability to weapon destroyed results.

Corollax wrote:
Peregrine might have some justification for taking the Demolisher Russ, proper. But the only stuff I can think of off-hand is the loss of turret-LoS for the demolisher cannon and increased vulnerability to weapon destroyed results.

Well, the turret and the fact that I forgot about the Thunderer when I was posting that. TBH it can go either way, 25 points off the price of a LR Demolisher might make the difference in bringing something better elsewhere in your list, but spending the extra 25 points to get the turret and not auto-die to 'weapon destroyed' is a reasonable thing to do.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Atheos wrote:LRBT is getting bashed, along with the Exterminator and Punisher here lol.

The punisher, as mentioned, kitted properly, can handle any target in the game, and on an AV14 chassis. The exterminator is the poor man's version of said punisher. The only russ that I really care for other than these two (not that the others (other than the LRBT) are bad per se...) is the vanquisher. You get four very serious heavy-hitting weapons on a chassis that other heavy-hitting weapons will struggle to handle.

I ran vanquisher spam to pretty decent success. Examples can be found here, here, and here.

That much serious killing power on that much durability can be pretty difficult to cope with. The sheer weight of high strength, low-Ap firepower means that you've also got what it takes to handle less-optimal targets like fliers, terminators, and the like. The only thing it lacks is the ability to handle large hordes, but that's what you've got the rest of your army for.

 Ailaros wrote:
The punisher, as mentioned, kitted properly, can handle any target in the game, and on an AV14 chassis.

Except, as mentioned, the Punisher can't handle any target in the game. We just keep going around in circles here, you make this ridiculous claim, we point out that the Punisher is awful (per point) at dealing with many common target types, and then you post the same claim again as if it never happened.

(And let's be honest here, you'll never break the circle because you can't admit that Vendettas are better and belong in your army.)

That much serious killing power on that much durability can be pretty difficult to cope with.

Unless of course you happen to bring a no-vehicle list, in which case you laugh at the Vanquishers. Vanquishers are good in their specific role, but they are NOT a generalist tank you can just throw into a list.

The sheer weight of high strength, low-Ap firepower means that you've also got what it takes to handle less-optimal targets like fliers, terminators, and the like.

What "sheer weight"? You're spending 200 points for 4x BS 3 shots IF you have both sponson weapons in arc and in range. Sure, if they hit they tend to hurt something, but you don't really have the volume of fire to handle terminators and you certainly don't have effective AA firepower*. Obviously it's better than nothing, but if you don't need long-range tank killing from the main gun Vanquishers don't belong in your list.


*Unless of course you refuse to accept the existence of Vendettas and FW units, in which case I guess they're one of the less-bad AA options in the codex.