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I think the issue is, WGF has basically taken on way more work than they should have, or severely underestimated delivery times to their customers, or both.

They're fantastic, but seriously... why can't they estimate their delivery times anywhere close to accurately? It is puzzling.

Dreamforge is dealing with a similar issue, WGF doing the production is WAY behind schedule....Mark has made mention of the possibility of a voucher for backers to use at some point to get some kind of discount. I think giving your backers an X% off coupon for future purchases is a great way to "make up" for ks delays


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
I think the issue is, WGF has basically taken on way more work than they should have, or severely underestimated delivery times to their customers, or both.

They're fantastic, but seriously... why can't they estimate their delivery times anywhere close to accurately? It is puzzling.

I think there problem might be that there estimation model doesnt take into account the fact that they continue to bring on new business. It seems like the estimates they give are based on them actually running the line with no distractions or change in priorities

That just boils down to that their estimates are way off, by more than a year on many projects, though!

They need to get that sorted, as it gives the businesses that are counting on them a bit of a black eye and bad press (although people have been understanding for the most part). Better to give a realistic estimate... I'm guessing they think they might lose the business if they do so, but again, it'd be much better in the long run. Getting the estimate within a Year of when they actually will deliver is a good start, I think

 RiTides wrote:
That just boils down to that their estimates are way off, by more than a year on many projects, though!

They need to get that sorted, as it gives the businesses that are counting on them a bit of a black eye and bad press (although people have been understanding for the most part). Better to give a realistic estimate... I'm guessing they think they might lose the business if they do so, but again, it'd be much better in the long run. Getting the estimate within a Year of when they actually will deliver is a good start, I think

First off, Mr. Earth Elemental Avatars, warn us when you change your avatar!!! I got so used to seeing green for your posts.

I agree that WGF needs to get better at estimating the ability to meet production needs. It's a common problem for companies: not being able to keep up with demand, and folding as a result of losing customers.

Perhaps WGF needs to invest in beefing up their production capacity at least for getting molds done, as those molds could then at least be sourced to other companies for actual injection production. Not ideal, but cutting molds is what ends up taking up a ton of this production time, and once molds are done they can be run for days on end to get batches done relatively quickly.

This (aside from pressure from New Line Cinema) could be one reason that GW doesn't leak much info on release schedules. Imagine the backlash if something were officially announced to the public, and then the almighty GW failed to meet that date? Instead they err way too far on the side of caution, and only officially announce releases once they are literally sitting on palettes waiting to be shipped.

 plastictrees wrote:
So what are you proposing, exactly?
These aren't bizarre delays that are evidence of incompetence, they are fairly straightforward production issues that we simply wouldn't see if that hadn't been crowd funded.
Should we take on the role of an hysterical board of directors, wailing and threatening every time there is a delay? Justin IS punished every time there is a delay. It means he's further from being able to sell his product at retail and his initial funding amount has to stretch further and further. Not being an idiot he's also aware that the goodwill of his backers only goes so far.
I'll ask again. What are you suggesting be done to make sure 'blame' is justly assigned?

I think there is incompetence afoot. Someone came up with the production schedule, and blew it. Whether that was intentional or "growing pains" on the part of Justin or WGF, it doesn't matter. Someone dropped the ball.

As for the blame, I am suggesting an end to the passivity of people accepting these delays as "part of the crowd funding process" because that isn't always accurate is it? Some projects get done on schedule, and those by and large tend not to be the ones that load up on stretch goals and other add-ons that result in delays. If people stopped accepting these 6+ month delays as standard, and demanded some accountability of the project creators, perhaps these ungainly, overly-ambitious projects would be curtailed.

But instead we get apologists who will patiently wait, and wait, and wait, and hope, and wait, because that is all they can do. So they make excuses and talk down the people who question the process. The process isn't working. Many of the large, tent pole Kickstarters in our community are plagued with delays. These delays are becoming so common that it is becoming part of the accepted wisdom that deadlines have no meaning in crowd funding and that delays are inevitable. bs. If people have an incentive to do better they will, but if they don't the status quo will reign supreme.

The status quo sucks. It needs to be changed. So, how do we motivate project creators in the future to give their deadlines serious consideration? Consequences. If the community that supports their efforts voices their disapproval project creators will have more incentive to be honest with their assessments of scheduling. It may cause them to hold their manufacturers accountable, or seek alternate manufacturers, or it may cause them to keep a campaign limited to items that they can bring to market in their estimated delivery window. Obviously these suggestions won't help current campaigns that are stuck in limbo, but since crowd funding and gaming are now inextricably linked, the community needs to decide if the way things are run now is acceptable. I do not think current trends are acceptable so I am voicing my discontent.

I am not trying to attack SWM specifically, aside from the Mantic board hop, it seems the delays are mainly on account of WGF and the stretch-goals, but this campaign is one I backed so I have the responsibility for complaining here, in a thread about a campaign that is over schedule and has my money. But this is bigger than SWM, it is a problem throughout crowd funding.

 plastictrees wrote:
So what are you proposing, exactly?

Exactly what I do for my customers when I don't deliver on a promise (regardless of the cause). Offer them a discount for future services or one on the current service. It's not unreasonable and should be passed on to WGF.

What consequences? The existing consequences are significant; that you lose the goodwill of your future client base.
How do you bring greater consequences to bear, particularly on a project that IS progressing, without trying to withdraw your funding. A course of action which, should enough people take it, would guarantee the failure of the project.
You didn't buy a product in a store, leaving the dull "what are you paying for in a kickstarter" discussion aside, you can safely say that. You are _seeing_ the development of the product progress from NOTHING to sketches, to CAD files to finished products.
It's not on time. A lot of projects run over schedule for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with malice or incompetence. What consequences would you like Justin to suffer at this point, beyond the existing ones that I already stated? You are still not actually proposing anything concrete.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
So what are you proposing, exactly?

Exactly what I do for my customers when I don't deliver on a promise (regardless of the cause). Offer them a discount for future services or one on the current service. It's not unreasonable and should be passed on to WGF.

Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.

 plastictrees wrote:
What consequences? The existing consequences are significant; that you lose the goodwill of your future client base.

I am not seeing a lot of that in any of the threads related to overdue projects. The more common response to delays on the part of backers is to go "oh well, that's crowdfunding for you!" so, while losing goodwill should be a consequence I am not seeing that. That is what I am calling for. Losing goodwill. Stop making excuses for these companies failures to produce results in the specified windows they generated in the first place. Stop backing projects that have excessive or overly ambitious stretch-goals. Essentially stop feeding the problem. Flood their e-mail in-boxes with correspondence that lets the project creators know how upset you are with the handling of the campaign. Be vocal. Essentially, do anything but just sit back and take it.

 plastictrees wrote:
Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.

I thought this was clear in my other postings, but I'll jump on SlaveToDorkness' coat tails. Yes. Hit them in the purse. Make them ponder whether or not their project is viable before they are 6 months, 12 months, 18 months into the delay cycle. If companies start having bruised egos from all the crap they get from their disappointed fans maybe the next campaign they propose will be run better. And maybe the little guy on the side lines who is thinking up his first Kickstarter will pay attention to the consequences of jerking backers around and make a reasonable campaign.


And again, plastictrees, I don't want Justin to suffer anything, really. I want SWM to get their gak together. I want SWM to get WGF to get their gak together. Just like I am sure people want Raging Heroes to get their gak together, and Dreamforge to get WGF to get their gak together, ect. ect.

I think some people need to go back some _real_ Kickstarter disasters to get some perspective.

Look, it's late. Big deal. Unwad your panties and get some big boy shorts. I've backed some 60+ projects, and 90% have been late. Nature of the funding beast - if these folks could get funds elsewhere, they would. But because they're dreamers, small businesses, poor track records, no collateral, whatever - they couldn't. If they had all their ducks in a row, they wouldn't need our money. So we back them.

And that means we get all kinds if folks, some who know who to run a schedule and contingency plan, and some aren't so skilled at it. Hell, professional studios that employ dozens of professionals producers and project managers are consistently late. So why expect different from amateurs?


Where SWM has totally hit the mark is the communication. Most projects clam up when it all hits the fan. Or lie. Make false claims, tell you things are shipping (for a year) when they're not, tell you they wont sell items retail until backers get them (only to show up in their webstore a day later), or say "two more weeks" every update for year,, or a whole host of other dishonest and reprehensible behavior. Probably 10% of the projects I've backed are run by people that are utterly incompetent, repugnantly dishonest, and/or totally absentee. (Seriously - one douchebag creator is almost 2 years late and hasn't logged into KS since September.)

No, I don't like that SWM is late, and it will likely influence my purchasing decision making going forwards, but I most certainly appreciate that they've got the stones to man up and admit it outright, and talk about options going forward. I surely don't want them "punished" - that would be counter to the behavior that is desired, ie, "tell me the truth, even when it sucks". Save the punishment for the deadbeat creators who deserve it - in spades.

 Aerethan wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
That just boils down to that their estimates are way off, by more than a year on many projects, though!

They need to get that sorted, as it gives the businesses that are counting on them a bit of a black eye and bad press (although people have been understanding for the most part). Better to give a realistic estimate... I'm guessing they think they might lose the business if they do so, but again, it'd be much better in the long run. Getting the estimate within a Year of when they actually will deliver is a good start, I think

First off, Mr. Earth Elemental Avatars, warn us when you change your avatar!!! I got so used to seeing green for your posts.

I agree that WGF needs to get better at estimating the ability to meet production needs.

Lol

And that's exactly what I meant, no more and no less- WGF just needs to stop promising the moon regarding delivery time, and then coming in a year or more late. To plastictrees, I don't want Justin of Secret Weapon to suffer any consequences, I'm just saying WGF need to get their act together! It's pretty clearly not Justin's fault that he's late (or at least, not primarily his fault)... WGF have been late on almost all their projects.

That said, I'll take late over bad any day. SavageRobby is right that this is, so far, a pretty tame Kickstarter as far as disasters go. It's just late, which is a big bummer, but not a deal breaker. And the primary party responsible for that is WGF (imo) and the estimates they give- they need to bump those estimates up by at least 6 months from what they're currently saying, and maybe something more like 9 months. If that loses them business, other businesses will fill in... there seems to be no shortage of demand for injection molded plastic wargaming parts, only a shortage of supply.

So basically "there are worse KSers out there" is your argument. Since they're not Hitler incarnate let them alone.

Sorry I'm not as jaded or irresponsible with whom I back with my money.

Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.

Yes, that's what adults do when they've fethed up.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.

Yes, that's what adults do when they've fethed up.

But Justin hasn't fethed up; that's the point we're making. He gave us a delivery estimate based on what WGF said they could do. Now that WGF have told him they can't achieve it he's come out straight up and given us the facts. There's literally nothing I would rather have had him do in that situation.

After all; what else can he do? He's one of a long list of WGF's customers, and not the only one who has a project behind schedule.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
So basically "there are worse KSers out there" is your argument. Since they're not Hitler incarnate let them alone.

Sorry I'm not as jaded or irresponsible with whom I back with my money.

Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.

Yes, that's what adults do when they've fethed up.

Godwin'd. Hard to take your temper tantrum seriously.




But I suppose I'll try. We live in a society with shades of gray. As far as crowd-funding projects go, there are varying degress.

On side of the scale is the perfect project - everything is early, discounts are great, everyone is happy. I've seen only one of those so far - Fate Core.

On the other far side of the scale, you'll see fraudulent or utterly mismanaged projects, that deliver nothing, that use the money for expenses other than the project at hand (moving, amenities, etc) - and end up with backers receiving absolutely nothing, and some even end up in court. The Doom that Came to Atlantic City comes to mind before it was revived.

Slightly down from there are projects where the creators do not deliver what is promised, but some inferior version (PDF only instead of a book, softcover not hardcovers, shoddy models, etc). Most of them usually lie about the state of the project, and this ends up being a surprise to backers.

Slightly down from there are the projects that may end up delivering, usually massively (1-2 years) late, and the entire way is a trudge, because the creators are unable or unwilling to be honest about the of the project. Go see Far West (or in a lesser case, Judge Dredd) for examples.

And then we come to projects that are just late. Something goes wrong. Schedule gets munged. Someone makes a mistake, or a supplier has an issue - the more complex a project, the more likely this is to happen. Reaper's first project came in here. Most projects I've backed, actually, fall in here. THIS IS THE NORM.


You want to whine and complain about deadbeat projects, where your money turns into nothing? That, I'll take seriously. I'm right there with you, and I'm vicious to creators that fail to _deliver_ what they promised. I get repeatedly chastised for being harsh on creators that fail to deliver, or who lie about their delivery. I hate the whole "its Kickstarter, its alright if they fail" BS. I'm with you there - I don't want someone to be irresponsible with the money I back them for, and the least that liars and cheats deserve is an earful (or an eyefull, I guess).

But you want to whine about something that is late, but is otherwise looking good, and has good (maybe even great) communication? Please. That's just asinine.

Yes, asking for a discount for a product that will most likely be a year later than promised is totally a "temper tantrum".

Luckily I have zero interest in you taking me seriously, Robby.

I do however have interest in Justin hearing my legitimate complaints about the business agreement we entered into almost a year ago.

Tibbsy, that is why I put forth the idea that WGF should be held accountable if they are the reason for the delays. The discount penalty should be passed along to them. Just like Justin was held accountable to his deadline to Mantic. I'm just looking for the same consideration.

A discount would be great; I think you're actually closer to agreement than you think guys.

WGF is to blame- they do great work, but they are woefully behind schedule. Hopefully, they shoulder the burden of any extra costs this causes... and yeah, a future discount, as Dreamforge is considering, would certainly be nice although I won't demand one. Just a nice gesture if it were possible.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Just like Justin was held accountable to his deadline to Mantic. I'm just looking for the same consideration.

Can you settle down about the guy who asked for a soda getting served before your 16 course meal is done? You're upset they didn't hold up on the easy to fulfill and done component until the harder components that required 16 times the molds were finished... molds which were significantly more complex and resulted in multiple tooling issues. The Deadzone tile is mainly a flat, featureless grid... dead simple to produce and get out there. In business its not always first in-first out. Sometimes you triage, and if you have one project ready to go, you don't hold up on it solely to appease SlavetoDorkness' sense of fairness. Or really, greed. Because this is what it seems to be mainly about, you angling for money back. This is the equivalent of someone slipping outside a shop's doorstep on a rainy day, and dollar signs instantly flashing in their eyes. What can I get for my pain and suffering?! Sorry to disappoint you, but unless there was something built into the contract with WGF, Secret Weapon can't really just penalize them easily in order to get you whatever discount you deem fair.

And no, before you ask, my tile sets were scrap and rolling fields.

I guess I'm more lenient with this kinda stuff... I have no problem waiting. It sucks, but it really is the nature of the kickstarter beast. I don't think of crowdfunding as pre-ordering, I think of it as investing in a company or product line that I think deserves to be real, and rewards will come when they're ready to come. It would be different if the guy ran off with the cash and disappeared, but as long as the creator communicates regularly and lets everyone know what's going on, then that's good enough for me.

 Necros wrote:
I guess I'm more lenient with this kinda stuff... I have no problem waiting. It sucks, but it really is the nature of the kickstarter beast. I don't think of crowdfunding as pre-ordering, I think of it as investing in a company or product line that I think deserves to be real, and rewards will come when they're ready to come. It would be different if the guy ran off with the cash and disappeared, but as long as the creator communicates regularly and lets everyone know what's going on, then that's good enough for me.

Likewise.

 Slinky wrote:

 Necros wrote:
I guess I'm more lenient with this kinda stuff... I have no problem waiting. It sucks, but it really is the nature of the kickstarter beast. I don't think of crowdfunding as pre-ordering, I think of it as investing in a company or product line that I think deserves to be real, and rewards will come when they're ready to come. It would be different if the guy ran off with the cash and disappeared, but as long as the creator communicates regularly and lets everyone know what's going on, then that's good enough for me.

Likewise.

same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.

Being late still sucks and would be nice if the companies did something to say thanks for waiting but its not required IMO

Nobody knows what sort of contracts WGF offers especially to 'pre-funding' projects like KS

It could well be X amount of man hours, X amount of Sprues, or we can fit your project in next

it could be them widely under estimating the time needed to complete things

it could be them very generously allowing things on projects to over-runs so they actually get completed rather than saying sorry your project is half done the next slot we've got open is 3 years down the line

it could be ks project directors booking 150 hours of work (or whatever) and actually needing 5 times that as their project has really blown up

only those involved know (but I bet it's a mix of both)

 ironicsilence wrote:
same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.

I've had the opposite experience. Big companies (or established companies that have been in the industry for a number of years) with big projects including multiple add-ons/stretch goals failing to meet deadlines, but smaller, more manageable projects get completed on, or very close to schedule.

 SavageRobby wrote:



Godwin'd. Hard to take your temper tantrum seriously.

You have to remember that with Kickstarter, you're generally not only dealing with complete amateurs in terms of project management and execution, but on the funding side as well. This isn't like doing a pre order on Amazon, where what you pay for is what you get. You're funding a project, and I just might be blase from working in the nuts and bolts side of the auto industry, but the amount of money I've seen sunk into stuff that looked good on paper, but then never actually made it off the drawing board, much less into prototype and production, makes my hair curl.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.

I've had the opposite experience. Big companies (or established companies that have been in the industry for a number of years) with big projects including multiple add-ons/stretch goals failing to meet deadlines, but smaller, more manageable projects get completed on, or very close to schedule.

i guess the common thread for me is all the ks ive had that are super delayed are being produced at WGF....all the ones ive had on time are larger companies that dont use WGF

 ironicsilence wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.

I've had the opposite experience. Big companies (or established companies that have been in the industry for a number of years) with big projects including multiple add-ons/stretch goals failing to meet deadlines, but smaller, more manageable projects get completed on, or very close to schedule.

i guess the common thread for me is all the ks ive had that are super delayed are being produced at WGF....all the ones ive had on time are larger companies that dont use WGF

That does make sense, but I don't think all the blame for Kickstarter delays can be laid at WGF's feet (not suggesting that you are saying that). I am guessing inexperience and greed are more commonly a factor. And by greed I mean opening up stretch goals and promising freebies that will severely put the project in jeopardy of meeting its completion date all in the name of adding more backers and money to the project.

One of the criteria I use is 'does this person seem to have an understanding of the cost of shipping?'

Even if they've managed to hold everything else together, I've seen a lot of kickstarters that fall apart when it's finally realized how much getting all this stuff out to the backers will run.

I generally just throw my money at projects that look awesome, I go into KS assuming there will be massive delays, I generally get into the KS since 9 time out of 10 backing it on KS gives you a price break vs waiting for retail, plus in most instances you get cool stuff a bit before it goes on sale for the general public

The thing about the project at hand though is that there were no freebies nothing was thrown at backers to make this explode out of all context, Mister Justin was very up front about that pledge X you get X in return there will be no Y or Z thrown in as well. The project ended up between stretch goals leaving a bit of contingency money but I'm sure that is well gone.

Mr. Justin needed $80,000 to tool each 16 tile set $5,000 per tile and I can well believe a 1 foot square tile cost at least that to tool even in China. Backers were asked to pay for the tooling only. The design work and manufacturing came from SWM own funds. In exchange backers got a set of the tiles they helped to tool. I'm sure SWM is in pretty deep for their own costs in this project as well and the longer this goes on the longer it hurts them financially.

Sure there are some KS that are pure pre order and it's obvious but this project isn't one of them I consider this to be one of the closest to "KS as orginally intended" projects that I've backed and as such I'd hate to see SWM suffer as a result of the delays.

I think the choice of words "a financial penalty" are perhaps not the best that could have been chosen. If Justin were to open up the Pledge Manager again and offer a slight discount, it should be seen in the light of "retaining customer goodwill" which is part of marketing, or managing the SWM brand. Creating more buzz, etc for the eventual retail release. I'm not even sure something like this would "cost money" or be "a financial penalty" because the tools are (or will be) already made, and it's just a matter of running off some more units to people who have already bought in - many of whom might well already be happy with what they have/already ordered and tempted into buying a bit more if a discount were offered. - Let's face it as well, KS backers are probably less likely to buy more of the same thing at retail anyway.

I think the two extremes of "it's kickstarter - suck it up!" and "someone needs to PAY for this!" are both a little ...extreme, but something in the middle can help to take the edge off people's anger and dissatisfaction with very delayed campaigns.

I've been away for the better part of a week and no one's jumped on this yet? C'mon peeps, pick up your game.

Update #108

Mar 8 2014
Ruined Temple - WALL RENDERS
14 comments
8 likes



Raffa left these waiting for me this morning, and... YAY!

I'll have these off to the printer in a week or two, and then we'll have resin masters to work with. I will also have photos of the Rolling Fields walls to show off soon as I have resin versions sitting next to my desk. I'm going to paint them up before I decide whether or not they need any additional detailing.

Otherwise there's nothing to update, and no word from the factory on a new shipping target -- which is fine, really, as I asked them not to give me a date until they were 100% sure they'd make it. So I probably won't get a date until they're loading the containers.

In related news, the Deadzone tiles have arrived in the UK and Australia, and we're just waiting on our shipment in the USA.

The ruined temple walls aren't very ruined.