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Which thinking about it is a very similar interpretation to the luna wolves/sons of horus/black legions tactical doctrine, of several assaults increasing in pressure in forcing the enemy to respond, draining their assets, before going for the throat and the enemies heart.

Now this to me seems strikes me as similar between their strategic and tactical doctrine employed by abaddon. The Black crusades have been increasing in duration and numbers striking at assets or aquiring assets for abaddon before going for the heart of the enemy.

Now, if this is the case, would you also say every minor attack the BL launch is a failure, if all their objective is to apply pressure and force the enemy to respond? Some of those fights might not even matter if they win or lose as long as some enemy asset is gutted in the progress.

Now iv thought about it, I believe the black crusades are but a long term strategic adaptation of accepted BL tactical doctrine.


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Which thinking about it is a very similar interpretation to the luna wolves/sons of horus/black legions tactical doctrine, of several assaults increasing in pressure in forcing the enemy to respond, draining their assets, before going for the throat and the enemies heart.

Now this to me seems strikes me as similar between their strategic and tactical doctrine employed by abaddon. The Black crusades have been increasing in duration and numbers striking at assets or aquiring assets for abaddon before going for the heart of the enemy.

Now, if this is the case, would you also say every minor attack the BL launch is a failure, if all their objective is to apply pressure and force the enemy to respond? Some of those fights might not even matter if they win or lose as long as some enemy asset is gutted in the progress.

Now iv thought about it, I believe the black crusades are but a long term strategic adaptation of accepted BL tactical doctrine.

Abadon was mentally unstable before he turned to chaos, anyway GW never advances the storyline so its imperium 13, Abadon 0. Or 14 and 0 if you count the heresy which he was basically second in command.

 Eetion wrote:

R3YNO wrote:
"Well that leaves 13 unsuccessful black crusades, but I have a good feeling about the next one..." Failbaddon

Well no. They each had an objective. The 1st obtained drchn'yen for example. It may not seem like much, but with it and the Taolon of Horus Abaddon ensured that nobody could assail his position as 'warmaster', he's just too powerful.
Subsequent attempts destroyed naval ship yards, and aquired the blackstone fortresses.

The black crusades were not purely aimed at destoying terra or cadia, some even circumnavigated and ignored them completely.
Instead each 'Crusade' is set to aquire assets for abaddon to expand his power base, or weaken the imperium by preventing use of or destroying their assets before assaulting.

That's not failing. That's being smart.

Don't forget offing chaos space marines can be a resource as well. One or more of the CSM warmasters who died may have been threatening abadon. With these sort of tyrannies it is fairly common to use "crusades" against a "great enemy" to stabilize your power base even if it is a "loss" as long as the loss cannot extend to loosing your seat of power.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
The reason for taking Cadia was that Cadia blocked the only stable route out of the Eye, with it fallen the Imperium will always be vulnerable to attack.

Little correction, Cadia IS the only stable route out of the Eye. So generally speaking if he take her he will collapse only stable route in existence and trap himself and the rest of his CSM in the Eye until one day who-knows-when new route is opened randomly ( that will last only for so long ).

Failbaddon suits him nicely.

There are many stable route out of the Eye. The thing is, their existence is only known by Chaos forces.
By smashing Cadia (and its pylons), the Eye would no longer be blocked there, and could expand. Chaos forces don't bother about the warp as much as the imperials do. They have means to navigate throught it when the imperium just puts his pants on his head and cry "I can't do dis !"
Making their progress to Terra while being covered my the Eye is like the easiest thing ever for Chaos marines.

All those points stand but you are missing one very crucial thing - main Imperial reinforcements hadn't arrived yet to help and that includes Navy + Guard Regiments + Astartes Chapters + Sister Orders and more crucially the Rock itself with all Dark Angels successor chapters. And if fluff is true then Lion will awaken and take control of Dark Angels once they reach Cadia and I seriously doubt that Chaos forces on the planet could stand against Primarch. One more thing to consider is that Space Wolves 13'th company is helping Cadian on the ground so that means that Russ is also somewhere out there.

Made me laugh so hard.
Russ is dead. As written in the SW codex and everywhere else.
The Imperium is running short on manpower.They had to remove tons of armies from countless battlefields to engage Abaddon's forces, and yet they lost to him. It's a minor defeat at the hands of Abaddon, but a devastating blow for the imperium as a whole.
The Lionel thing ? Assumptions. The rock hasn't moved yet, and Lionel is still waiting for his prince charming.

I wouldn't say Chaos is totally free from the eddies of the warp. If the cadian gate wasn't important then Cadia itself would be irrelevant.
Although I do agree their are multiple stable routes, they are too small to have a coordinated invasion. Chaos within the warp suffers from the same vagaries and chances of time, and fluke as the imperials do.

"Guess who's back, back again,
Ezzy is back, tell to Creed."
(Ezzynem - Without me)

No seriously, he lost 12 times. And he's going forward the 13th. Sorry, for me Abby is a failure.

The problem is threefold.

Abbadon winning would set chaos up above the Imperium, thus it'll never happen.

40k is stuck at that period of Cadian fighting, it'll never move forward.

The eye of terror campaign was one of the BEST examples of number 1, because chaos utterly screwed the Imperium, but somehow they won the "Orbital battle" (Which btw, was a weaker percentage"

 Eetion wrote:
I wouldn't say Chaos is totally free from the eddies of the warp. If the cadian gate wasn't important then Cadia itself would be irrelevant.
Although I do agree their are multiple stable routes, they are too small to have a coordinated invasion. Chaos within the warp suffers from the same vagaries and chances of time, and fluke as the imperials do.

Cadia is relevant only because the pylons are blocking the growth of the Eye. And that is why Abaddon wants them down.
Sure the Warp is a dangerous place, even for CSM, but they know it, and they have means to make their lives easier within it.

No seriously, he lost 12 times. And he's going forward the 13th. Sorry, for me Abby is a failure.

He lost 12 times ?
Well, according to the fluff, he managed to rock hard in all the fleshed out Black Crusades. If by failing you mean 'he didn't took terra', then the ultramarines failed horribly to annihiliate the entire tyranid race at Maccrage. What a bunch of failures, right ?

Also isn't there a rumor about Necrons appearing on Cadia to combat Chaos the moment Abaddon start to tear down their pylons?

And Eldar joining the battle too? I guess that they too wouldn't be too happy about Eye of Terror expanding... maybe Magun Ra will redo his Tyranid smashin but with Chaos Legions this time

He does well for me, in my opinion If he was failbaddon, there would not have been a second crusade let alone a thirteenth.

If, he was such a fail why the hell do the HLoT gak there pants and weaken whole sectors against the orks/ nids/ tau to 'reinforce' Cadia? (ie replenish).. Now I'm a proud guard player but even I can admit that just because the IG can set foot on Cadia doesn't mean they control it... In fact it smacks of propaganda from the HLoT to say 'we won'... 'Oh right the billions upon billions of casualties...' Reminds me of the Persians getting past the 300 and saying 'we won'... 'Oh right the hundreds of thousands of casualties'...
Abaddon is he boss.. Plain and simple.. He doesn't care how many he losses just as long as the Imperial Guard suffers and he still lives.. So far.. So good

I voted Fail because screw chaos.

Though seriously, the main reason I don't like him is because he can't keep his Legions from fighting each other on a regular basis. As a loyalist, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be looking at them as a serious threat or The Three Stooges.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Also isn't there a rumor about Necrons appearing on Cadia to combat Chaos the moment Abaddon start to tear down their pylons?

And Eldar joining the battle too? I guess that they too wouldn't be too happy about Eye of Terror expanding... maybe Magun Ra will redo his Tyranid smashin but with Chaos Legions this time

No, that is not a rumor. Well, I guess it is, but you made it up and you're the only person who supports it.

Question is, who would you want to win?

Space Churchill

or a whiny satanic goth in armor who wears skulls to compensate

Ah Creed. That's a man who should have FAIL in front of his name.

1 conflict, commanding quite possibly the most well defended sector within the Imperium with an 'blank cheque' for reinforcements, and priority for supplies and Astartes support beyond all other warzones... Does he win? Nope, gets his butt whipped all across Cadia. Fights still going but expect more of the same.

In all seriousness, creed is probably a great mind to coordinate that many men vehicles and supplies... Its just Abaddon is far better.

Personally, I think he's one of the worst characters in the setting. That being said, he's going to be in the spotlight quite a bit in the Talon of Horus, (the Black Legion centered book eventually forthcoming from Aaron Dembski-Bowden) so I'm really looking forward to having my opinion on him completely reversed.

 Galdos wrote:
I love Abaddon. When Horus died and the other Primarchs ran around in circles with their heads cut off, Abaddon, as a simple captain, stood up and told the other Primarchs listen the feth here.

Abaddon is suppose to to be good at strategy, extremely capable warrior, and was able to tell the other Primarchs who should be his superiors to listen to him.

He is kind of a badass in my book

Simple captain? He was fetthing second in command of the legion Wouldn't call that simple,.. also he was mournival,... a rank that could be obtained by 4 members max...

As stated above,.. the only reason he has any succes so far is because the Imperium is streched thin

And i believe when a chaos warrior dies, and is favoured enough he just gets ''ressurected'' by his god to fight anew,.. When Abbadon gets to Terra,.. with all his armies and resources streched thin... he still has to facy Terra's mighty defenses... and every chapter that comes to terra at full speed and force..... Though id assume that if the chaos gods saw that Abbadon is about to reach terra al their daemon biatches get summoned and join the attack... Just like daemon primarchs a think

 Eetion wrote:
Ah Creed. That's a man who should have FAIL in front of his name.

1 conflict, commanding quite possibly the most well defended sector within the Imperium with an 'blank cheque' for reinforcements, and priority for supplies and Astartes support beyond all other warzones... Does he win? Nope, gets his butt whipped all across Cadia. Fights still going but expect more of the same.

In all seriousness, creed is probably a great mind to coordinate that many men vehicles and supplies... Its just Abaddon is far better.

I actually agree with that.

Creed has the unfortunate burden of being an allegedly amazing military genius who just so happens have only a single showing under his belt, the one where he fething loses. Not a good look.

So basically from what I'm reading.. anyone who took part in 13th Black crusade is fail... because they didn't have a clear victory... man no pleasing some people

They ran a 13th Black Crusade world wide campaign.

Chaos won. That's what confuses me when people call Abaddon a total failure.

Anyway, it's mostly imperial fan boys going nah-nah-nah-nah boo-boo and chaos players stroking their chins as they look at all of the carnage Abaddon caused.

BlaxicanX wrote:
He's a guy who took an army that was nearly defeated and hid like a bitch in the one part of the galaxy where the Imperium couldn't follow and rip him apart. While cowering in said bitchland for thousands of years, he's finally amassed a large enough army to threaten the Imperium, but said army is still only one one-thousandth of the Imperium's army size, and is only effective because the Imperium is too busy fighting everything on all sides to focus all their forces on the guy. He's taken advantage of this weakness by taking Cadia, and is now utilizing one of the worst strategies in 40K history, to slowly, ever so slowly, leap-frog from planet to planet, creating daemons worlds, on his way to Terra. A plan that's going to take like a thousand years to complete because even when traveling in a straight line, it takes fething forever to get to Terra that way. Meanwhile, his forces are going to get picked off and bled by the Imperium and Eldar all the way to Terra until he has nothing left, because Chaos can't replenish their forces as quickly as the Imperium can.

Yeah, go Abaddon.

Personally, I'd say that running to The Eye was more of a tactical retreat, than a cowardly hideaway. If he and his followers hadn't gone there, the IOM would have hunted down the then shattered remains of the Luna Wolves, and ended a large part of the Heresy once and for all.
Retreating to The Eye allowed Abaddon to regroup his forces, sort out the Horus-clone problem, establish a somewhat stable leadership for chaos, and enlist the help of many Daemon forges with which to boost his armies.

Furthermore, rather than just dumping every human he finds into a sacrificial pit, he puts them to use on the battlefield, where they can still feed the dark gods, but also provide some manpower for the armies of chaos.

As for hopping from planet to planet in a straight line, where did you read this? I've never heard of that plan.
And about this:

BlaxicanX wrote:
is only effective because the Imperium is too busy fighting everything on all sides to focus all their forces on the guy. He's taken advantage of this weakness by taking Cadia

Are you seriously trying to say that taking advantage of a weakness is a bad thing? Really?
It doesn't matter that his army is only a thousandth of the IOM, the Tau and Eldar are smaller than that, and they can be a serious threat to the IOM at times. If Horus hadn't taken advantage, then he really would deserve to be called Failbaddon.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Also isn't there a rumor about Necrons appearing on Cadia to combat Chaos the moment Abaddon start to tear down their pylons?

And Eldar joining the battle too? I guess that they too wouldn't be too happy about Eye of Terror expanding... maybe Magun Ra will redo his Tyranid smashin but with Chaos Legions this time

If I get you right, you make most stuff up.
Fanfics are not relevant, you know.

For those who want to check

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

The official stats from the EOT campaign.

Gods do not tolerate failure. And neither do power mad satanic super space soldiers. It really is a simple as that - if he were a failure, he'd be dead/spawned/spawned and dead a long time ago. It's not his fault the codex authors can't write for feth.

The Chaos gods need the IOM to survive. Without it they couldn't be as mighty as they are in 40k and would slowly loose strength to newer gods worshiped by other races. At least that's how I regard things. They never wanted Horus to win in the first place. Now as chaotic as it is the ruinous powers are at it's most happiest.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Chaos gods need the IOM to survive. Without it they couldn't be as mighty as they are in 40k and would slowly loose strength to newer gods worshiped by other races. At least that's how I regard things. They never wanted Horus to win in the first place. Now as chaotic as it is the ruinous powers are at it's most happiest.

The gods existed long before the Imperium of Man. It is also unimportant if anyone actualy worships them.

KingDeath wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Chaos gods need the IOM to survive. Without it they couldn't be as mighty as they are in 40k and would slowly loose strength to newer gods worshiped by other races. At least that's how I regard things. They never wanted Horus to win in the first place. Now as chaotic as it is the ruinous powers are at it's most happiest.

The gods existed long before the Imperium of Man. It is also unimportant if anyone actualy worships them.

Half-true. It's not unimportant. They need worship that's their substance for life.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Chaos gods need the IOM to survive. Without it they couldn't be as mighty as they are in 40k and would slowly loose strength to newer gods worshiped by other races. At least that's how I regard things. They never wanted Horus to win in the first place. Now as chaotic as it is the ruinous powers are at it's most happiest.

The gods existed long before the Imperium of Man. It is also unimportant if anyone actualy worships them.

Half-true. It's not unimportant. They need worship that's their substance for life.

No.... that's emotion. Hell, all blood spilled regardless of intent or religion helps Khorne. He couldn't give less of a feth if you're chanting his name or not.

Oh he care. believe you me. The loader you shout his name the better your mutations. If you whisper it while beheading someone you get chainswords as nails, if you roar it you get a third very muscular arm.

We all know cadians already have a third very muscular arm.

Anyway, from lexicanum:

Khorne's followers are warriors without exception, if only in mind than in occupation. His followers build no temples but rather worship him on the battlefield. To devote time to building temples rather than fighting for something would more likely incur Khorne's wrath than please him. Worship of Khorne is purely through bloodshed, either from one's enemies in victory or one's own through earnest struggle; it is said that any follower who allows a day to pass without contributing to this act of worship will incur Khorne's displeasure

So, when are you going to talk about Khorne sorcerers?