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newbis wrote:I have played games with the new codex and won against armies that would have whooped my ass before. Less crying and more playing IMO.

Stop. Whiners want you to listen to there anecdotal evidence, but won't acknowledge yours.

omerakk wrote:"Ermahgerd! My new book sucks because every single unit didn't get buffed while keeping their old strength, costing less, and having no disadvantages whatsoever."

Wow really? How odd.

Agreed, its like all the Tau knee-jerks only played 5th edition and somehow thought Tau were great then. Have none of them seen the normal element of change with new editions and new codices across the years? How on earth were they blind sided that GW was weakening mech and strengthening foot slogging in this edition?!

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Threads like these are so cute. I see the EXACT same type of thread with every new codex release. And people wonder why GW ignores the fans? I'll give it another few weeks before people stop complaining and actually learn to make good Tau lists.

Then we get the whining about combination XYZ being TOO strong and broken.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Basically, what I'm saying is that if you are not beholden to a single, unbending playstyle, then you need to learn to adapt. However, if you insist on only playing Tau with fast tanks shooting at everything on the move, then unfortunately that's probably not going to work nearly as effectively as it did before. You might find something else to compensate though. Who knows. We'll see in the coming months.

Somehow, someone thought that nothing would change, except getting better. He doesn't want good advice or pointers, he want's his special little flower to be mourned and validated. Nevermind that in not moving, nothing really changes. Nevermind that the Ion Cannon is a beast and we have a l33t hammerhead. Nevermind that all his old models are still strong units... he wants the game his way

LValx wrote:
Whine, whine, whine.

The codex is plenty good and before posting knee-jerk negative reactions you oughtta get some real testing under your belt.. I'd like to ask how many total games you've gotten under your belt with the new codex.

Leave him alone and drink his tears

lord_blackfang wrote:
Never mind that you have the only tanks that can fire Overwatch, can snipe specific models, ignore night fighting, and still retain the ability to fly through all terrain with no danger.

Dang it folks! Agree with him. Everyone else has to deal with change in 6th, but he shouldn't. Leave him be!

The Railgun on the Hammerhead is still only a Heavy weapon. You can still move 6" and fire it.

Vehicles can overwatch. Heck, EVERYTHING can overwatch, even if they didn't get charged, and anything that can take support systems can Overwatch at BS2.

Flyers suck. Turret weapons, yes, but unless you only fire at the back ends of every flyer, they still suck. The Bomber is debatably useless.

The Riptide is awesome. The Shield Drones are T6 with a 4+ invuln. Oh, and you can deep strike them.

Tau are not useless, they haven't been shat on by Vetock, and they are still a really fun army with a great codex and very unique feel to them.

The codex is what you have for the next year, at the very least. Either deal or gtfo.

The amount of griping is hilarious. I don't really see how tau got "de-mech'd" I'd argue that their mech got better. Now that markerlights can completely bounce cover with only two hits...your "mech" units are putting shots on stuff with no cover save. That mean's no jinks for anything, no saves for most infantry, and 90% of the fliers in the game may as well go home. Crisis commanders with puretide chips are a huge force multiplier and I'm interested in all the combo possibilities that will entail. Piranhas got much better and cheaper. I'd like to know specifically what the OP means by his "mech" list getting boned. With cheaper markerlights spread through an entire FoC...I don't quite see it. But I guess complaining about it is easier than actually looking at the book closely.

One of the things I find remarkable is the amount of cross-unit support, even compared to the previous codeces. From the widespread availability of markerlights, to the various support systems on suits, to supporting fire during assault, to Ethereal/Fireblade local buffs, the effectiveness of each unit is highly dependent on its board position. This is neat, to me, because buffs can be directed where they're most needed, making a unit good at the time you need it to be, and then next turn power up a different unit.

I have no real problem with the tank situation. They're still powerful, but real cheap for the power that the main gun (compared to IG tanks). I also have no real problem with the cost of a Devilfish. Comparing to the undercosted Chimera, it's cheaper, has more firepower on the move with the drones, and is more resilient outside of cover. Most importantly, I think, is that it carries 12 Firewarriors instead of 12 Guardsmen. Yeah, we all know how fine and dandy Mech-Vets are, but they are throw-away units, and once a Chimera get close to the enemy, AV10 sides mean it's completely toast. The 12 Firewarriors carry very serious firepower with either Carbines or Rifles. Furthermore, thanks to cheaper and better EMP grenades, even a half size squad is an almost lethal threat to any vehicle in charge range. This matters. Fire warriors are not expensive, and they're very well armed and durable for their points.

I agree with Bio. Well said.

I think at this point there are more people saying no its not bad than there are people complaining about it, seriously I think the negatives came from the first page.

This book is awesome, getting a headache trying to figure out what to put with what there are so many stinking options. It really is "Build a Bear" Tau

valace2 wrote:
I think at this point there are more people saying no its not bad than there are people complaining about it, seriously I think the negatives came from the first page.

This book is awesome, getting a headache trying to figure out what to put with what there are so many stinking options. It really is "Build a Bear" Tau

Since when were the majority automatically correct? Personally I haven't had a game with the new tau yet and I doubt anyone has had enough games to tell whether they're truely competitive, especially with so many options available.

I reckon that in a few weeks we'll have a clear idea of whether it's usable competitively or not. Until then, just try stuff out until you find something that works.

ITT: Less QQ more PEW-PEW
The new dex is strong, not broken like Grey Knights were in 5th
GET OVER IT, GW learned something from that fiasco!

Yesterday, New Tau placed top 4 out of 20 at a tournament I attended. They handled everything pretty well, minus obviously, assault.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
Gpfunk has it spot on.

Instead of spending the last week moaning Backfire why don't you actually get loads of games in and post the reports and how you felt units did instead of "this sucks because of this" etc.

Markerlights have always been an important part of the way Tau play. Don't like them? (For some reason) The don't use them. Try it. You will get more dakka. My regular opponents HATE that I can strip cover and make my units hit on 2s. Now I have more places to do that from?!?! Count me in.

You really need to play some games before writing off an army.

Even with that I feel like the codex just has not been out long enough for people to get the feel for all of it's eccentricities. We, simply put, do no know what the competitive builds will be for this dex yet. As for that, I'd like to point out that people thought that the Hellsturkey sucked for about a month before everybody was like "Holy crap that's baleflamer is amazing!", which was before the torrent change.

One thing a lot of people miss about the hammerhead nerf is that you can't move more than 6" or it will not allow you to shoot. The Hammerhead body is 5.5", meaning that have to be right on an terrain piece that is exactly .5" thick to move over it and still shoot. So Hammerheads are reduced to shuffling from side to side to try and maintain the Jink save. Also because it is a skimmer it needs taller terrain to block it. It's also a huge vehicle (much larger profile than Leman Russ) so it is much harder to try and hide 25% of the tank body.

Only two vehicles can overwatch really, the fighter and the Longstrike Hammerhead. You can purchase the upgrade to hit with extra S5 weapons, but that's somewhat pointless. Who can really complain though, since those two are actually pretty good at support fire. Though one has to ask how you get the flyer within 6" of an assaulted ally.

One thing that really bothers me about this codex is that we are heavily reliant on markerlights. To make one unit BS4 and ignore cover you need 3 markerlights which is about 6 pathfinders. And that's only one unit. The problem most people don't realize is that you can only effectively take markerlights in one FOC slot, FA. That's pretty maxes out at three units getting hit with markerlights, and buffs to only about 3 elite and/or heavy support units depending on how you spread them out.

I'm thinking that what I'm going to run and probably end up seeing is two cheap commander suits loaded up with missiles and some various wargear and attached to markerdrone units so they can mark and move.

Crisis suits with attached drones so they can ripple the markerlights, that way they can try to refill marker tokens they use assuming the unit lives. Body guards can now be taken extra so you can always bring some extra deep striking units if needed.

My favorite trick that I've gotten to try out is Kroot swarms coming in from back table edge. Put the side of a recon devilfish up against the deployment limit, pivot and scout 12", move 12" your turn, and turbo boost 6" is just enough to get to 6" from the back edge and bring in Kroot from reserves. The Recon drone counts doesn't get wrecked like the other attached drones so it's not hard to keep alive till the start of turn 2. Turn 2 brings in Kroot to cause as much dismay as possible, with deepstriking crisis suits near the homing beacon to cement a foothold in the enemy's deployment zone.

My friend is going to try running a crisis suit commander with drone controller, 2 marker drones, MSS, C&C node, and PEN. Attach it to the Riptide with it's two shielded drones, so the unit has majority toughness 6, the riptide leads the way and taking all wounds, and the commander forgoes shooting to buff the riptide.

Now I'm as pessimistic as they come, and I agree that the nerf to the broadsides is silly and really makes the HYM variant to obviously best build. The vehicles are almost useless except for the ion head. The kroot and firewarriors are still weak and can't be heavily relied on. The codex depends on markers more than ever.

I will say this though. There are new dynamics that we get that are great. We can spam interceptor like nobody's business, and with HYMsides it's better than skyfire at a fraction of the cost. The mobile firepower we get can be more precise with homing beacons now. Bodyguards are extra suit units (more expensive I know) but can be nicely kitted out for deep striking.

My new favorite toy is the Onage gauntlet. It's actually pretty nice when teamed up with the Iridium armor. The armor makes it so most weapons that ignore the save go after. So I figure put it on the warlord and in the event you get assaulted you have one chance to challenge and take out the higher LD unit and may have a chance at winning combat.

New Tau are amazing.

S10 AP1 was nerfed hard not because it was very good, but to make AV14 worth more. You have to admit the last few editions AV14 had a habit of disappearing on turn 1.

It's the same theory behind the power weapon nerf, making 2+ saves mean something.

raverrn wrote:
New Tau are amazing.

S10 AP1 was nerfed hard not because it was very good, but to make AV14 worth more. You have to admit the last few editions AV14 had a habit of disappearing on turn 1.

It's the same theory behind the power weapon nerf, making 2+ saves mean something.

This. This is actually something I love and hope it becomes a trend. My Land Raider has been collecting dust for almost 2 years.

All I can say is the new tau whooped my dark eldar ass so hard its not even funny, the report is bellow if anyone is interested:

BR21: The Black Buzzards VS New Tau - 1500pts

Infiltrating kroot seem just fine for pressuring the opponents objectives and securing midfield objectives.

 Lobukia wrote:

Somehow, someone thought that nothing would change, except getting better. He doesn't want good advice or pointers, he want's his special little flower to be mourned and validated. Nevermind that in not moving, nothing really changes. Nevermind that the Ion Cannon is a beast and we have a l33t hammerhead. Nevermind that all his old models are still strong units... he wants the game his way

Yeah, those Tyranid players are just as silly whining about their Carnifexes. They can always buy Tervigons, what's the problem!

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. This is not about something broken getting nerfed, this is about an entire playstyle being made useless.

Hey, imagine if all IG tanks were made terrible. "You whine over nothing since Guardsmen are even better!" Is that what you'd say?

Oh, and hey, isn't it easy for you to make snide comments when YOUR special little toys were NOT nerfed. It's only funny when it happens to other people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
The amount of griping is hilarious. I don't really see how tau got "de-mech'd" I'd argue that their mech got better. Now that markerlights can completely bounce cover with only two hits...your "mech" units are putting shots on stuff with no cover save.

Common cover save is just 5+ these days, meaning even old Markerlights removed cover with just 2 lights. Of course it's true that Stealth, Shrouded etc effect now are ignored too and this is a big buff, even bigger buff however is generally cheaper Markerlight assets compared to old book.

And no, Mech didn't "get better". It's likely that a new Tau army which may or may not contain tanks got signifantly better, but this is not because tanks got better - they got worse, way worse, it's just that everything around got better. And it doesn't matter how cheap they got (in fact, they didn't get much cheaper, when you start adding all the wargear), because it no longer has the aspects the old army had, which got me intrigued. I don't care if Hammerhead came at zero points cost which would allow me to fit in 8 Riptides in my list, if it's a boring, static tank. Can you imagine next Eldar Codex writer removing the Fast rule from their tanks? Or next Deldar Codex losing Fast rule from their skimmers? You probably can't. So why it is less preposterous when similar change is done to Tau?

Here are what were the 3 biggest issues for the Tau from start of 5th ed that have carried all the way into this new codex only worse.

Not enough VoF in the long range S8-10 to effectively counter prevalent IG and Necron builds

No way to effectively get our scoring units(troops) onto our opponents rear objectives
*(Overcosted & Undergunned transport that was no faster and had less firepower than a chimera.)
*(No deep striking Troops)
*(No fast insertion vehicles)

Over dependence upon certain units and wargear.

--Not enough VoF of S8-10 weapons? Seriously?

Name a current army that can spam S10? Would have been Tau, now no one can. Which is probably by design, as already noted above this helps make AV14 more durable metawise.

What current army can spam S9? Quality, cost-effective S9, and not compromise the list? IG via vendetta spam? That's about it. Everyone else will have a handful or two of S9 at most, not spam. Not buying this as a Tau only 'problem'.

So that brings us to S8. This is where we see multiple armies that can easily spam S8. Except all of those have notable issues in 6ed (DE lance spam), or have eschewed S8 spam for more robust anti-infantry. In other words, armies that more resemble what a Tau list is easily capable of.

--No way to effectively get our scoring units(troops) onto our opponents rear objectives.

FW Devil fish in reserve + pathfinder unit with recon drone gets within 6" of a side edge near opponent objective = profit. In other words a psudeo outflank option that no other army has.

Or just do what most every other army does and contest those objectives or blow the holders off them. Or I dunno, use the 5-7 turns you have wisely instead of relying on gimmicks like deepstrike (ohh great you got some scorers near my objectives, too bad its turn 2 and I have 3+ turns to get rid of them) or scoring deathstars (800+ points to hold one objective has issues all its own).

--Over dependence upon certain units and wargear.

This is not solely a Tau issue and to me is often times related to perception vs reality and personal quirks vs flexibility. Tyranids aren't required to take 3x Tervigons and 30 Termagants no more then Tau are required to take 9 broadsides. There's viable options beyond the 'best' if one is willing to explore them. The 6ed tau dex has more answers throughout the FOC for various issues then ever before. It is in my opinion why you see fusion getting longer range, onager fist added to the options, an MC added to the FOC and seeker missiles and markerlights cheaper and easier to add to the list -- while broadsides lose the S10. They rebalanced the codex so that HS is not overly needed for anti-tank and so that broadsides are not as much of a no brainer.

And no, Mech didn't "get better". It's likely that a new Tau army which may or may not contain tanks got signifantly better, but this is not because tanks got better - they got worse, way worse, it's just that everything around got better. And it doesn't matter how cheap they got (in fact, they didn't get much cheaper, when you start adding all the wargear), because it no longer has the aspects the old army had, which got me intrigued.

Cheaper Piranhas is definitely a huge advantage for the "no mans land" they create with their large footprint and cheap fusion blaster, which by the way got a boost to it's range. That means the piranhas have a bigger threat reach (30"). Secondly, they can detach their drones for a 2 for 1 FA slot essentially. Also, I really think that you are overlooking the usefulness of Skyrays now. Hammerheads can move 12" if you boost BS with markerlights...which means Tetras are boss. Like I said, instead of pissing and moaning about the changes to your army...learn to adapt.

I don't care if Hammerhead came at zero points cost which would allow me to fit in 8 Riptides in my list, if it's a boring, static tank. Can you imagine next Eldar Codex writer removing the Fast rule from their tanks? Or next Deldar Codex losing Fast rule from their skimmers? You probably can't. So why it is less preposterous when similar change is done to Tau?

I play both eldar and dark eldar and I've made lists work just fine without the mass use of skimmers. Mass skimmers are useless to those armies anyways..so if they lost fast from their rules...big deal. Tau tanks still have the inherent mobility of a skimmer...so they are still useful and have good weapon systems.

Cheap, rockin' guns, solid armor, almost automatic 5+ cover save. I don't have many complaints about the Hammerhead. Sure, you can't move 12" and fire your main gun at full BS, but it's cheaper, so you can spend some points on Markerlights to boost your snap shot (I know, I know, Codex: Markerlights, blah, blah, blah). The extra 6" of moving and firing is nice, but I guess it doesn't mean that much to me in the 6th edition world where skimmers live.

I think, personally, not enough attention has been given to the seeker missile change. That they can fired without a Markerlight OR with a Markerlight is a pretty big buff in some ways. That they count as a weapon fire is a nerf. Together, it's a changed role for the system. Now, you can remain stationary and fire off the main gun plus two seekers. You can fire seekers instead of the main gun to hit Marked targets behind cover. You have two extra weapon systems that can be destroyed instead of your main gun on a Weapon Destroyed result. They're just over half the (questionable) cost of a Marine hunter-killer, and on a Hammerhead or Sky Ray, have the same BS. In a world of glancing vehicles to death, putting out a wave of reasonably accurate first turn S8 is going to be a useful thing.

I think, personally, not enough attention has been given to the seeker missile change. That they can fired without a Markerlight OR with a Markerlight is a pretty big buff in some ways. That they count as a weapon fire is a nerf. Together, it's a changed role for the system. Now, you can remain stationary and fire off the main gun plus two seekers. You can fire seekers instead of the main gun to hit Marked targets behind cover. You have two extra weapon systems that can be destroyed instead of your main gun on a Weapon Destroyed result. They're just over half the (questionable) cost of a Marine hunter-killer, and on a Hammerhead or Sky Ray, have the same BS. In a world of glancing vehicles to death, putting out a wave of reasonably accurate first turn S8 is going to be a useful thing.

This +1. I think seeker missiles is the "new" tech in Tau armies now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still don't get the hate for markerlights. They are cheap and plentiful and the benefits they provide are amazing. Why wouldn't you take them?

valace2 wrote:
It really is "Build a Bear" Tau

From the descriptions of the codex, I think Tau might eventually bump off the Imperial Guard as favorite allies, thus making this codex the "Build-an-Ally Codex".

But on their own, it seems a number of their units took one in the jimmies. I hope my codex shows up today so I can start reading it!

I'm just happy to ally in broadsides as an additional air defense.
IIRC, my required HQ can join the unit and make them tank hunters.

-Matt

Backfire wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Somehow, someone thought that nothing would change, except getting better. He doesn't want good advice or pointers, he want's his special little flower to be mourned and validated. Nevermind that in not moving, nothing really changes. Nevermind that the Ion Cannon is a beast and we have a l33t hammerhead. Nevermind that all his old models are still strong units... he wants the game his way

Yeah, those Tyranid players are just as silly whining about their Carnifexes. They can always buy Tervigons, what's the problem!

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. This is not about something broken getting nerfed, this is about an entire playstyle being made useless.

Hey, imagine if all IG tanks were made terrible. "You whine over nothing since Guardsmen are even better!" Is that what you'd say?

Oh, and hey, isn't it easy for you to make snide comments when YOUR special little toys were NOT nerfed. It's only funny when it happens to other people.

I was looking it over, and it appears the entire range of IG tanks are ALREADY terrible, apart from the Hellhound. They all follow the same restrictions you are so upset about being applied to your Tau, whom you apparently feel are supposed to be Eldar.

Here is a 2k list based on the old school mech tau list from 4th utilizing the updated tech tau get:

HQ:
Crisis Commander, x2 Marker Drones, TL missile pods, plasma rifle, target lock, drone controller, puretide chip

Total: 172pts

HQ:
Crisis Commander, x2 Marker Drones, TL missile pods, plasma rifle, target lock, drone controller
Total: 153pts

Troops:
6 FW in Warfish, blacksun filter @ 145pts
6 FW in Warfish, blacksun filter @ 145pts
6 FW in Warfish, blacksun filter @ 145pts
6 FW in Warfish, blacksun filter @ 145pts
6 FW in Warfish, blacksun filter @ 145pts

Elites:
x3 Crisis Suit, TL Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle

Total: 171pts

Fast Attack:
3 Tetras with x2 target locks

Total: 160pts

4 piranhas with fusion guns, blacksun filters

Total: 204pts

Heavy Support:

Skyray TL SMS

Total:115pts

Hammerhead SMS, Submunitions, blacksun filter, seeker missile, disruption pod

Total: 154pts.

Hammerhead SMS, Submunitions, blacksun filter, disruption pod

Total: 146pts.

Army Total: 2000pts

This list has plenty of firepower to knock out transports, and smoke infantry in cover. This list has the capability to achieve mission objectives as well. Puretide chip command joins crisis team and gives tank hunters when needed. The other commander joins the drone squadron that the piranhas create. Tetras can each target different units with markerlights if need be. Markerlights can boost other markerlight hits now...something that couldn't be done before. This list has enough marker lights to achieve crazy combinations to allow the army to be more mobile. Additionally, seeker missiles from the skyray can pound a target right away. The rest plays just like before. With the increase to SMS range the mobility early on isn't completely necessary. Piranhas screen warfishes and create an armored wall. Pretty straight forward. I think this list can work well. Lots of AV on the table in an environment that isn't equipped to deal with this many vehicles (16 of them).

 winterman wrote:

Here are what were the 3 biggest issues for the Tau from start of 5th ed that have carried all the way into this new codex only worse.

Not enough VoF in the long range S8-10 to effectively counter prevalent IG and Necron builds

No way to effectively get our scoring units(troops) onto our opponents rear objectives
*(Overcosted & Undergunned transport that was no faster and had less firepower than a chimera.)
*(No deep striking Troops)
*(No fast insertion vehicles) "

Over dependence upon certain units and wargear.

--Not enough VoF of S8-10 weapons? Seriously?

Name a current army that can spam S10? Would have been Tau, now no one can. Which is probably by design, as already noted above this helps make AV14 more durable metawise.

What current army can spam S9? Quality, cost-effective S9, and not compromise the list? IG via vendetta spam? That's about it. Everyone else will have a handful or two of S9 at most, not spam. Not buying this as a Tau only 'problem'.

So that brings us to S8. This is where we see multiple armies that can easily spam S8. Except all of those have notable issues in 6ed (DE lance spam), or have eschewed S8 spam for more robust anti-infantry. In other words, armies that more resemble what a Tau list is easily capable of.

The problem is not only a "spamming S10 or S9" problem, it is an availability one : there is only one S10 shot in the whole Codex (Hammerhead Rail Gun), and only one S9 (Nova Charged Riptide Ion Gun), so one shot per slot, if you take all your HS and Elites slots for 6 high powered shots.

You can argue that S9 spam is not efficient for other armies, but S9 shooting is at least available for them.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I'm really sad that the Tau have now the Eldar syndrom : Everything is great if you spend 4 markerlight tokens to fire at BS5 and no cover save! (same as Eldar Guide + Doom FTW!)

Sure, Markerlight support is more widely available, but I really hoped that Networked Markerlight became the default option, not the exception.

All of this doen't mean that the new Tau is a very bad army. But they seem better as an allied force (for AA possiblities) than as a standalone force.

But I still think that something good can be made out of this codex. Unfortunately for my wallet, most of them involve Riptides!

Edit :
@CaptKaruthors : your Commanders have 5 systems each, so removing the TL from the missile pods could be a good option especialy when they have BS5!

Tau have managed to work even markerlight-free in the past, and they can do so still.

You just need to cover for lack of accuracy with more dakka, and rely on numbers to do their thing.


That being said, the only two things that really got "nerfed" in the new codex are the broadsides and hammerheads.

Broadsides lost quite a bit in the AT department, but they got vastly improved in the AI that takes place after the armor is gone, and can also be a very nice AA platform now.

Hammerhead lost in the mobility section, and in defenses with Dpod nerf, but the railhead is now much cheaper, and the ionhead got a S8AP3 large blast option, so it balances out in my book.

Now lets count the AT options that improved shall we?
Piranha-fusion range increase, costs less, backup drones greatly improved.
Stealth team-fusion range increase, burst cannons of the ret of the team improved.
EMP-costs less, became far more lethal (turned from useless to viable)
Crisis generally a bit cheaper, also more versatile.
Riptide, enough said.
Commander "railgun fist"
Shadowsun and farsight are both cheaper and stronger now, sun has 2 fusion shots, farsight can blend most tanks.

and that's before entering the S7 realm, S6AP1, etc.

So keep crying about our broadsides not being OP anymore and having to actually think a bit about AT options, I'll just move on to all these fantastic new options. (heck, will probably still use railsides too.)

 Captain Avatar wrote:
Not enough VoF in the long range S8-10 to effectively counter prevalent IG

lolwut? Since when do you need S8-10 to counter 50-man blob squads?

This sounds like a lot of complaining for complaining's sake.

 Danny Internets wrote:

 Captain Avatar wrote:
Not enough VoF in the long range S8-10 to effectively counter prevalent IG

lolwut? Since when do you need S8-10 to counter 50-man blob squads?

This sounds like a lot of complaining for complaining's sake.

He's talking about their tanks.

Still plenty of fusion to go around

Edit :
@CaptKaruthors : your Commanders have 5 systems each, so removing the TL from the missile pods could be a good option especialy when they have BS5!

Ah, yes. My bad. Well that makes them a little cheaper then and still works.

 winterman wrote:

FW Devil fish in reserve + pathfinder unit with recon drone gets within 6" of a side edge near opponent objective = profit. In other words a psudeo outflank option that no other army has.

And if I read the rules correctly, you can have your recon drone in your own corner, within six inches of one of the table sides, and bring a unit with outflank in from anywhere along that table edge, including your opponents deployment zone (provided you enter from that table side). Talk about unexpected. You'll get a lot of side armor and rear armor shots with that.

Biophysical wrote:
Cheap, rockin' guns, solid armor, almost automatic 5+ cover save. I don't have many complaints about the Hammerhead. Sure, you can't move 12" and fire your main gun at full BS, but it's cheaper, so you can spend some points on Markerlights to boost your snap shot (I know, I know, Codex: Markerlights, blah, blah, blah). The extra 6" of moving and firing is nice, but I guess it doesn't mean that much to me in the 6th edition world where skimmers live.

I think, personally, not enough attention has been given to the seeker missile change. That they can fired without a Markerlight OR with a Markerlight is a pretty big buff in some ways. That they count as a weapon fire is a nerf. Together, it's a changed role for the system. Now, you can remain stationary and fire off the main gun plus two seekers. You can fire seekers instead of the main gun to hit Marked targets behind cover. You have two extra weapon systems that can be destroyed instead of your main gun on a Weapon Destroyed result. They're just over half the (questionable) cost of a Marine hunter-killer, and on a Hammerhead or Sky Ray, have the same BS. In a world of glancing vehicles to death, putting out a wave of reasonably accurate first turn S8 is going to be a useful thing.

Please don't kid yourself, just because a markerlight is 2 pts cheaper then a hunterkiller missile doesn't make it amazing. How many imperial armies spam hunter missiles? None, because points spend on multiple one shot weapons is a waste of pts. Especially with the seeker missile change (nerf imo) if they had come down to 8pts and had the old rules I might consider it. But the inability to use any markerlight to shoot the seeker irks me. And the fact that seeker missile can shoot targets out of line of sight doesn't even work anymore, because they have to be shot at the same target as the rest of the gun, which do need line of sight. (Except SMS, so I guess thats a combo.....)

I'll openly admit, if I have extra points and just can't find anythingelse I like in the army, I'll be putting a seeker missile or two on my hammerhead, but going out of your way to plan it as a strategy is crazy and very point inefficient. So far every list I've made ends up cutting the seeker missiles, because they are so many better low point options.

milo wrote:

 winterman wrote:

FW Devil fish in reserve + pathfinder unit with recon drone gets within 6" of a side edge near opponent objective = profit. In other words a psudeo outflank option that no other army has.

And if I read the rules correctly, you can have your recon drone in your own corner, within six inches of one of the table sides, and bring a unit with outflank in from anywhere along that table edge, including your opponents deployment zone (provided you enter from that table side). Talk about unexpected. You'll get a lot of side armor and rear armor shots with that.

That's... pretty dang evil, actually. You could even chain a second recon drone through near the opponent's back edge, and get stuff coming in off the back side of the table as well. Very nice catch.