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Wolfnid420 wrote:
My question is, WHY DONT PATHFINDERS HAVE INFILTRATE?!?!?!? lol it just fits them sooo much that I feel its a typo that they dont have it.

They effectively have infiltrate if you think about it.

@Jancoran

Why do i have a feeling those you are arguing with have the notion that losting a unit in a wargame is the end of the game?

I mean, if you play GK with like 15 models on the table i can understand how a single loss can be devestating, but against your list that i presume have like 50 troops and still enough points for a tank and some pathfinders, then yes a lascannon shot is your least worry as the cannon might poke at a tank, but after the tank is dead it only cause 1 wound at max against a troop. And suits only have 2 wounds anyway, so getting one insta-gib`d is not that grand of a loss. ( Try Tyranid warriors with 3 wounds, now thats bad )

Dracoknight wrote:
Why do i have a feeling those you are arguing with have the notion that losting a unit in a wargame is the end of the game?

It isn't the end of the game, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore losses. Tau aren't IG, we win by bringing powerful (and expensive) elite infantry, not by having a giant horde of redundant heavy weapons. Each unit removed is a significant drop in firepower and therefore a significant drop in our chances of winning. If we throw them away recklessly (for example, by pretending that Vendettas and Helldrakes are harmless) it's very easy to get to a point where you just can't kill the enemy fast enough and your remaining troops get wiped off the table.

the cannon might poke at a tank, but after the tank is dead it only cause 1 wound at max against a troop.

Which is only a problem if you're playing an army that has nothing but lascannons. If, instead, you also brought plenty of anti-infantry weapons then having your anti-tank weapons become less effective once they've killed everything is far from crippling. And of course if you've reduced a Tau army to Fire Warriors and Kroot you've probably won the game.

And suits only have 2 wounds anyway, so getting one insta-gib`d is not that grand of a loss.

It's a huge loss. Instant death against Tau potentially doubles the incoming firepower, usually without allowing any armor saves. The combination of those two things negates the durability advantage crisis suits are supposed to have and tends to result in entire units being removed from the table.

The point is the crisis suits normally isnt without protection, be it shield drones, shield themselves, or the iriduim suit for tanking, and with the JSJ that crisis suits and their drones can do they can easily get their cover against a Lascannon.

Tho they can still hit but there is always ways of luring away cannons, and Jancoran here prolly have a tank for bait for your lascannons.

Its all up to tactics, and in a game of dice, even the best save cant help you, but it doesnt stop you from using them. ( Oh no my 2+/3++/FNP Riptip CAN roll 1s, better not take it to be sure! )

Don't think any army will ignore lascannons, unless its a primary infantry army. But at the same time, few armies are able to bring so many lascannons either. IG is probably the only one that comes to mind that can bring . The typical MEQ army usually doesn't have that many lascannons.

You can have drones in front of your suits to take the initial hits. Hopefully by the time he gets through the drones, you would have taken out his lascannons. Drones are 12 points a pop, and can benefit from cover. If they are shield dronesthey even have a 4+ invulnerable save. So, well worth it for absorbing a lascannon hit.

Dracoknight wrote:
The point is the crisis suits normally isnt without protection, be it shield drones, shield themselves, or the iriduim suit for tanking, and with the JSJ that crisis suits and their drones can do they can easily get their cover against a Lascannon.

Yes, you still have defenses, but those are limited. Cover is often only a 5+, shield drones and shield generators are expensive (especially now that shield drones lost their controller's armor save and are the same price as gun/marker drones), and iridium armor is one per army. Lascannons don't automatically remove entire crisis suit/Broadside units, but they are a huge threat to them.

Tho they can still hit but there is always ways of luring away cannons, and Jancoran here prolly have a tank for bait for your lascannons.

Sure, but Jancoran's initial argument was that lascannons (and Vendettas) are weak against Tau because Tau have no targets for them. Bringing tanks to be a target for lascannons kind of contradicts that plan.

Its all up to tactics, and in a game of dice, even the best save cant help you, but it doesnt stop you from using them. ( Oh no my 2+/3++/FNP Riptip CAN roll 1s, better not take it to be sure! )

That's a ridiculous strawman. You don't have to pretend that saves are worthless to acknowledge that some weapons are way better at killing certain target types than other weapons. Nor does acknowledging the fact that Tau have units that are vulnerable to lascannons mean that you should remove all of those units from your list.

(In fact I already clearly stated that a Tau list without those units sucks.)

I think you are mad because your army has weaknesses. Every army, new or old, has weaknesses. Yours is the lack of mobile scoring. Mine is the lack of resilient scoring. A space marine's is AP3, a terminator army's is ap2

The trick is to use your strength's to counterbalance your weaknesses. You have long range firepower, therefore you should aim to take out the enemies anti-tank with it, to ensure you can get a devilfish in the back lines. Or, use kroot. Or vespids.

You said you have no jump infantry, what you kind of meant was "I don't like vespids"

 Peregrine wrote:

Its all up to tactics, and in a game of dice, even the best save cant help you, but it doesnt stop you from using them. ( Oh no my 2+/3++/FNP Riptip CAN roll 1s, better not take it to be sure! )

That's a ridiculous strawman. You don't have to pretend that saves are worthless to acknowledge that some weapons are way better at killing certain target types than other weapons. Nor does acknowledging the fact that Tau have units that are vulnerable to lascannons mean that you should remove all of those units from your list.

(In fact I already clearly stated that a Tau list without those units sucks.)

Not a strawman, a extreme example of your arguments.

So far you just ignored the point that a Tau army most likely manage to destroy these types of weapons during their first rounds of shooting, so "ignoring them" is not really a option if your units are weak to it.

Tau have the Range, they have the Markerlights and they have hit`n run shooting ( JSJ ) that can poke at these anti-tank weaponry if they so desire, but as you said the lascannons are not the only weapon so its a tactical choice to go for the target that pose the most danger to your set-up.

In the case of Lascannons use LOS to your advantage, use the long range of your tanks to take them from the other side of the board.

I think he is thinking about Vendettas but doesn't want to come right out and say it. Not a lot of other stuff can bring too many lascannons unless its a vendetta squadron.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think he is thinking about Vendettas but doesn't want to come right out and say it. Not a lot of other stuff can bring too many lascannons unless its a vendetta squadron.

Its that flying thing isnt it?
Well in that case Tau have the best anti-air choices in the entire game currently.

Dracoknight wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think he is thinking about Vendettas but doesn't want to come right out and say it. Not a lot of other stuff can bring too many lascannons unless its a vendetta squadron.

Its that flying thing isnt it?
Well in that case Tau have the best anti-air choices in the entire game currently.

They do, but I would doubt they would be able to deal with them effectively, a Vendetta squad coming in will get at least one Turn of Lascannon firing (unless the Tau Player takes Skyfire AND Interceptor, in which case that's a lot of points spent and 2 support slots taken up (only giving you one weapon), so it's most likely that Vendettas will be able to take suits down pretty easily, even given that JSJ won't really help as Vendettas are flyers, can move 18" and fire all 3 TL Lascannons and hence are positioned high up to see over some cover.

Tau can deal with the rest pretty easily, but Vendettas? They will be hard to take down, anything above S8 doesn't have Skyfire and Vendettas are AV12 meaning that Missile Pods probably won't penetrate, meaning that you'll need to waste a couple of units to deal with them, and that's just 1 Vendetta, let alone a squad of 3 or more squads.

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
519014 5510300 null]
case that's a lot of points spent and 2 support slots taken up (only giving you one weapon),

Also Boardsides can take 1 support and Riptides can take 2 ( And if i misunderstood, all suits also have multi-trackers to boot )

 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Tau can deal with the rest pretty easily, but Vendettas? They will be hard to take down, anything above S8 doesn't have Skyfire and Vendettas are AV12 meaning that Missile Pods probably won't penetrate, meaning that you'll need to waste a couple of units to deal with them, and that's just 1 Vendetta, let alone a squad of 3 or more squads.

One useful method is to have a Commander with Puretide neural engram man a Quad-Gun, giving himself Tank Hunters the turn before he has to start intercepting things. Tank Hunters means that strength 7 shots suddenly inflict a result 5/9 of the time instead of 1/3 of the time. Vendettas are very scared of this.

 Peregrine wrote:

Dracoknight wrote:
And suits only have 2 wounds anyway, so getting one insta-gib`d is not that grand of a loss.

It's a huge loss. Instant death against Tau potentially doubles the incoming firepower, usually without allowing any armor saves. The combination of those two things negates the durability advantage crisis suits are supposed to have and tends to result in entire units being removed from the table.

Where are crisis suits supposed to have insane durability. They are supposed to jump into cover and out of line of sight. They are supposed to bring heavy firepower on a very mobile platform. I dont see where they are supposed to be out in the open, providing cover for things behind them, thanking all incoming fire.

I've now had two games with Tau. I have found that theyb are still essentially the same pre-codex ... that is they suffer the same weaknesses. Talk all you like about Kroot infiltrating and claiming objectives, talk all you want about cascading markerlights. Increase in range for fusion is also good. Sure these help. But your troops still run off the table. A solid fast army capable of getting in close fast ... let us say two DPs and some hounds as an example, will ruin your backfield turn two. So yes, the new MCs are nice, we have skyfire and intercept options all over. But we lose units fast and each lost unit really decreases the efficiency of your list exponentially.

I'm not claiming doom and gloom. But those rushing to pick up a new army thinking it as good as the CSM codex or GK codex will be disappointed much like those who jumped on the DA bandwagon. They are better allies though now, which is a small caveat. Being able to take a cheap HQ ( fireblade) put him on a quad with FW, a few suicide Crisis suits ( TL- fusion and done) and broadsides or hammerhead is nice. Stand-alone? I think we have not improved that much.

At least there are ways of getting around the leadership problems that Tau have vs. before when they had none. That in itself is an improvement. Sadly, 5th edition made people lazy list builders and players as the game degenerated into spam and Flavor of the month builds. Now that the game actually has more diversity in lists, diversity in missions, etc. there is no real right answer anymore. Some combos from 5th still work well, but most have been passed up by the newer diversity that the 6th edition codexes bring.


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One useful method is to have a Commander with Puretide neural engram man a Quad-Gun, giving himself Tank Hunters the turn before he has to start intercepting things. Tank Hunters means that strength 7 shots suddenly inflict a result 5/9 of the time instead of 1/3 of the time. Vendettas are very scared of this.

Agreed.


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Where are crisis suits supposed to have insane durability. They are supposed to jump into cover and out of line of sight. They are supposed to bring heavy firepower on a very mobile platform. I dont see where they are supposed to be out in the open, providing cover for things behind them, thanking all incoming fire.

Yeah, I don't get it either. Other than going down in cost and built in wargear that you previously had to pay for...nothing has changed in the way Crisis teams functioned. Same with their durability. The upside now is that when they die, they didn't cost you an arm and a leg.

It sounds like having HQs that provide area benefits is an upgrade from the old codex. The new list has a lot more skyfire. I don't see how anyone can claim the new codex is not a significant improvement. Are the Tau Necron good? No. But they won't be listed as one of the bottom armies anymore I think.

 Peregrine wrote:

...we win by bringing powerful (and expensive) elite infantry, not by having a giant horde of redundant heavy weapons. .

This is the problem with Peregrine. Someone got a bunch of cliches about Tau in his head at some point and he bought them hook line and sinker.

Anyone else reading would UNDERSTAND intuitively that regardless of the name on the Codex, if you bring 117 of anything (I forgot to count two hounds, so its really 117), you're going to stop caring about most flyers in the game and CERTAINLY the Lascannons will be no more than minor annoyances..

The Dark Angels flyer is the one I probably wouldn't like to see, but no one takes it anyways (odd that). Still, that would be one that would be more frightening to Tau. And if you recall, we started down this road when I said that I was not as concerned about flyers because I can spread and ablate their effectiveness with my numbers and three Lascannons off a Vindetta would not worry me.


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Dracoknight wrote:
@Jancoran

Why do i have a feeling those you are arguing with have the notion that losting a unit in a wargame is the end of the game?

I mean, if you play GK with like 15 models on the table i can understand how a single loss can be devestating, but against your list that i presume have like 50 troops and still enough points for a tank and some pathfinders, then yes a lascannon shot is your least worry as the cannon might poke at a tank, but after the tank is dead it only cause 1 wound at max against a troop. And suits only have 2 wounds anyway, so getting one insta-gib`d is not that grand of a loss. ( Try Tyranid warriors with 3 wounds, now thats bad )

I know. I know... Exactly! I know...

Just post the list already. Don't think of it as defying Peregrine but educating the rest of us as to why lascannons aren't scary to tau.

 Blaggard wrote:
Just post the list already. Don't think of it as defying Peregrine but educating the rest of us as to why lascannons aren't scary to tau.

+1 here. I'm curious because I've never played Tau before and often face IG, so having this list in my pocket would be nice.

I'm not defying Peregrine. This is a Tactics thread, not a List thread and I am avoiding turning it into that. I dont want it to become about critiquing the list. Theres plenty of places to do THAT.

My point was simple and straightforward: 117 models makes lascannons effectively non issues. I think the point was made, I think its accurate and I think that is enough of that subject. Maybe I'll post the list in a list THREAD after i have more games with it so i can provide Batreps and the like to help. As it is, I post it now and we totally derail from the point with no real value being added to a tactical point.

"117 models makes lascannons effectively non issues."

Not necessarily true. It depends on whether 15 of those 117 are good targets for lascannons. The lascannons don't exist in a vacuum either. Last time I checked, IG have all kinds of nasty templates to deal with the other 102 models.

 Jancoran wrote:
I'm not defying Peregrine. This is a Tactics thread, not a List thread and I am avoiding turning it into that. I dont want it to become about critiquing the list. Theres plenty of places to do THAT.

My point was simple and straightforward: 117 models makes lascannons effectively non issues. I think the point was made, I think its accurate and I think that is enough of that subject. Maybe I'll post the list in a list THREAD after i have more games with it so i can provide Batreps and the like to help. As it is, I post it now and we totally derail from the point with no real value being added to a tactical point.

I mostly agree with you. If you have 117 models, i'm going to assume a large number of them fall under Troops. The object of 40k, generalizing here, is to capture and defend objectives. Lascannons will not be effective vs. large numbers of troops. Now some of those 117 models may be susceptible to Lascannons, but if they aren't troops, it isn't too big of an issue.

I know a lot of players especially feel that Lascannons are a good investment. I think in the current 40k "meta" they are generally not a good place to put points. I'd much rather take Autocannons because they can put out more firepower for less cost.

In 5th edition having things such as Lascannons was better because mech was more predominant. In 6th infantry is more predominant and such weapons are very inefficient vs. cheap, expendable bodies. Even massed Marines (which obviously aren't as popular due to the Drake) have little to fear when an opponent brings Lascannons.

I take Broadside teams and still don't really fear Lascannons. I've played vs Obliterators and Vendettas and neither has really struck much fear into me. They might be effective vs my Broadsides, but they will do squat to my 60 Orks or my ~40 Tau troops.

 Jancoran wrote:
I'm not defying Peregrine. This is a Tactics thread, not a List thread and I am avoiding turning it into that. I dont want it to become about critiquing the list. Theres plenty of places to do THAT.

IOW you know the "lascannon-proof" list sucks and you don't want anyone to see it. Why let people criticize your list when you can just declare that you have one and that horrible Peregrine guy is wrong?

My point was simple and straightforward: 117 models makes lascannons effectively non issues. I think the point was made, I think its accurate and I think that is enough of that subject. Maybe I'll post the list in a list THREAD after i have more games with it so i can provide Batreps and the like to help. As it is, I post it now and we totally derail from the point with no real value being added to a tactical point.

Simple, straightforward, and utterly wrong. Having 117 models doesn't make lascannons a non-issue since you're depending on things that aren't Kroot hordes to kill the enemy. Without effective use of crisis suits/broadsides/riptides (whether they died to LC fire or weren't in your list at all) to cut down your opponent's army to a manageable size you'll find that most armies have no problem removing 117 Kroot.


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 Jancoran wrote:
Anyone else reading would UNDERSTAND intuitively that regardless of the name on the Codex, if you bring 117 of anything (I forgot to count two hounds, so its really 117), you're going to stop caring about most flyers in the game and CERTAINLY the Lascannons will be no more than minor annoyances..

I'd love to play your special version of 40k where having a platoon of 117 guardsmen automatically means that Vendettas can no longer kill the artillery that I'm depending on to clear my opponent's scoring units off their objectives.

And if you recall, we started down this road when I said that I was not as concerned about flyers because I can spread and ablate their effectiveness with my numbers and three Lascannons off a Vindetta would not worry me.

And then you made the absurd claim that you have a list that doesn't have anything that is vulnerable to lascannons, other than a single tank and a flyer. I'm still waiting to see that list.

"I know a lot of players especially feel that Lascannons are a good investment. I think in the current 40k "meta" they are generally not a good place to put points. I'd much rather take Autocannons because they can put out more firepower for less cost. "

Ranged AP 2 is power in 6th edition. It's even better at STR 9. Sometimes, you really want to knock out teqs or AV 13 from a safe distance. Krak missiles and autocannons can't do this. Lascannons can. LR based lists especially lulz over autocannons. Don't get me wrong, autocannons are great but not universal.

The proof will be in performance. If your Tau list can beat every IG list with Vendettas, I'll believe you. Again, it's important to note that IG lists can contain several Vendettas and still cover their bases.

I personally love how the Meta has changed, this will help Tau survive that little bit more, as lascannons are replaced by Autocannons and Melta is replaced by plasma, meaning that you won't get ID'd from autocannons or plasma, although plasma at RF range can be nasty, it still can't kill a commander like melta could before. it also allows me to take vehicles such as the hammerhead and they work better, because now they can't be crew shaken/stunned by glancing hits anymore, and with the reduction of reliable AV13/14 killers in opponent's armies nowadays, it's not too much of a big issue that you're not fast as you won't need to move away as much, and I've got 3 in my list to reduce the chances of anything hiding away too, i'm not a fan of broadsides, as missile ones do the job my Crisis suits can do, I think we really lack in MEQ killing power and that's why i'll be taking ionheads, they can put out some S7 shots just like Missile suits to deal with Vehicles/MC's but you can get some marine pie plates if needed.

Also, i too would like to see this 117 model list, i doubt it's very effective if you have no suits or vehicles as you said lascannons won't be a 'big deal', what happens if you go up against a Mech Army? Apart from EMP grenades and the odd S7 pathfinder ion rifle you won' have any heavy weapons so you're pretty much screwed.

Also, i think people underestimate the true power of mech lists now due to the change, vehicles are essential in any lists for protection and manoeuvrability across the board, and the best support units in the game are Vehicles (Bar Crisis Suits) The only difference now is that you actually need skill to play them.

I oppose the meta shift! I still like my lascannons/meltas. Actually, I use lascannon/melta/plasma/autocannon in as even of a mix as I can.

yeah, but what do Lascannons excel against that the "meta" is really big on?

Most of the lists I see winning around where I am at are packing blobs, or double blobs. Many are allying in Orks for mass bodies.

Lascannons, the way I see it, are best vs Heavy armor, MCs and multiwound models. And as a Nid player, I've played vs 3x Vendetta lists and they still couldn't win. With cover/FNP/Iron Arm even Lascannons don't scare much.

Most Tau will bring some things that are vulnerable to lascannons. But if the opponent invests heavily into them he will end up weakening himself to the mass infantry lists. Unfortunately there arent great ways to mitigate this. 40k right now seems to be a more complicated RPS.


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 GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
I personally love how the Meta has changed, this will help Tau survive that little bit more, as lascannons are replaced by Autocannons and Melta is replaced by plasma, meaning that you won't get ID'd from autocannons or plasma, although plasma at RF range can be nasty, it still can't kill a commander like melta could before. it also allows me to take vehicles such as the hammerhead and they work better, because now they can't be crew shaken/stunned by glancing hits anymore, and with the reduction of reliable AV13/14 killers in opponent's armies nowadays, it's not too much of a big issue that you're not fast as you won't need to move away as much, and I've got 3 in my list to reduce the chances of anything hiding away too, i'm not a fan of broadsides, as missile ones do the job my Crisis suits can do, I think we really lack in MEQ killing power and that's why i'll be taking ionheads, they can put out some S7 shots just like Missile suits to deal with Vehicles/MC's but you can get some marine pie plates if needed.

Also, i too would like to see this 117 model list, i doubt it's very effective if you have no suits or vehicles as you said lascannons won't be a 'big deal', what happens if you go up against a Mech Army? Apart from EMP grenades and the odd S7 pathfinder ion rifle you won' have any heavy weapons so you're pretty much screwed.

Also, i think people underestimate the true power of mech lists now due to the change, vehicles are essential in any lists for protection and manoeuvrability across the board, and the best support units in the game are Vehicles (Bar Crisis Suits) The only difference now is that you actually need skill to play them.

Vehicles are good support, but the problem is that they can be shut down with 1 penetrating hit. A shaken/stunned/weapondestroy or explodes can all shut a vehicle up with one lucky shot. Most infantry based firepower doesnt have to worry about that. The biggest problem with transports is having to disembark to score and if the squad is small, it is at risk of being destroyed pretty easily.


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Anyway, my list takes over 120 models:

Commander - Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones, Iridium Armor, 2 Burst Cannon - 162
Ethereal - 50

Riptide - Fusion Blaster, Burst Cannon, Velocity Tracker - 200

9 Fire Warriors - 81
9 Fire Warriors - 81
18 Kroot - 17 Snipers, 1 Hound - 124

2 Broadsides - 2 Missile Drone - 154
2 Broadsides - 2 Missile Drone - 154
2 Broadsides - 2 Missile Drone - 154

8 Drones - 5 Marker, 3 Gun - 112
9 Pathfinders - 99

Warboss - Bike, PK - 125
28 Shoota - Big Shoota - 173
29 Shoota - Big Shoota - 179

I've played vs Vendettas/Oblits/Scythes and Barges/Wraiths/FMCs/Heldrakes. It has performed well each time for me and i'm very happy with what it can bring to the table. I think if I am able to build it and paint it, i'll try to take it to NOVA and believe I can do quite well with it.

Tau, a realists review(Or how I learned to stop worrying and take Ork allies)

@LValx how do you think your list would hold up against this?

500 TYRANIDS 
Tyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Wings - 260 
Tyrant - 2x TL-Devourers, Wings - 260 

Doom - Spore - 130 
3x Hive Guards - 150 

Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210 
10x Termagants - 50 
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210 
10x Termagants - 50 

2x Biovores - 90 
2x Biovores - 90 

1500 

Do you thinkit would struggle? I mean you would be very busy with the devastating double flyrant combo and all the while the gants would be getting closer and closer with more and more spawning. They are decent when buffed b the tervies. The biovores would also put pressure on you and you would certainly suffer from the doom when it arrived.