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He had a slight mistype in the list. He meant this:

1. Nurgle and Baledrakes
2. Flying Monstrous Creatures
3. Dark Angels
4. Tau
5. Daemons
6. Chaos Space Marines

OOOOOOh. Ok. Well when you put it like that the list makes perfect sense. Not much to argue with there!

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem is that if you want those shield drones to take the insta-gib wounds then they have to be in front of the suits. If they are infront of the suits then they're going to be taken down with small arms fire first since they'll only save 50%. Then that leaves suits to get insta-killed by S8 weapons.

This is true, but then they have to waste two units firing at my suits instead of just one, as not many units can fire both small arms and large weapons and any unit that could would be a priority target as they're usually the most annoying and shootiest portions of their army.

I'm not a big fan of using drones at their base BS and I definitely dislike wasting a drone controller on my fireknives when I can make their firepower more effective. BS3 is bad enough, BS2 is borderline unuseable IMO. If the invuln upgrade wasn't so expensive I would use that but instead I definitely would much rather the drones to absorb wounds.

 YotsubaSnake wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem is that if you want those shield drones to take the insta-gib wounds then they have to be in front of the suits. If they are infront of the suits then they're going to be taken down with small arms fire first since they'll only save 50%. Then that leaves suits to get insta-killed by S8 weapons.

This is true, but then they have to waste two units firing at my suits instead of just one, as not many units can fire both small arms and large weapons and any unit that could would be a priority target as they're usually the most annoying and shootiest portions of their army.

I'm not a big fan of using drones at their base BS and I definitely dislike wasting a drone controller on my fireknives when I can make their firepower more effective. BS3 is bad enough, BS2 is borderline unuseable IMO. If the invuln upgrade wasn't so expensive I would use that but instead I definitely would much rather the drones to absorb wounds.

Pretty sure, Marines of most flavours can take a Special/Heavy weapon surrounded by bolter boys. The bolters kill the drones allowing the special to wound/kill the/a suit(s). The same situation applies for IG infantry squads, however this is less reliable due to the weakness of lasguns. I think I covered about half of all armies out there with that line.

 acekevin8412 wrote:


Pretty sure, Marines of most flavours can take a Special/Heavy weapon surrounded by bolter boys.

blatantly false. No marines can take special weapons

This codex really just pointed out how squishy crisis suits are without taking huge advantage of an unreliable 4+ look out sir on a character up front. For optimal defense, you go character with 2 weapons and a shield gen (or 1 weapon, shield gen, stim) , then shield drones closest to him, then the other 2 suits. Only problem is, it's really not too reliable, 25% of the time your expensive specialized setup will just net you a dead crisis suit. That's about how likely it is for a broadside to pen a rhino now, too

I feel like the book was rushed out by someone very inexperienced with Tau. Lots of silly things abound, like burst cannons versus SMS on hammerheads, vespids going up in cost, kroot getting so much weaker when they supposedly can go toe-to-toe with an ork boy, stealth suits getting even weaker, devilfish not going down in points, and one serious pet peeve of mine - odd point costs on crisis suits, and increase in cost for melta, burst cannons, flamers, and missile pods which were clearly costed so as to be even multiples of 5.

uberjoras wrote:

I feel like the book was rushed out by someone very inexperienced with Tau. Lots of silly things abound, like burst cannons versus SMS on hammerheads, vespids going up in cost, kroot getting so much weaker when they supposedly can go toe-to-toe with an ork boy, stealth suits getting even weaker, devilfish not going down in points, and one serious pet peeve of mine - odd point costs on crisis suits, and increase in cost for melta, burst cannons, flamers, and missile pods which were clearly costed so as to be even multiples of 5.

I agree. It seems like they did more of a quick patch than anything else. Only two new units and only two redone kits. It really looks sad compared to what a codex that already had a lot (CSM) got just as many as Tau got, even though its a very limited codex starting off.

 Exergy wrote:

 acekevin8412 wrote:


Pretty sure, Marines of most flavours can take a Special/Heavy weapon surrounded by bolter boys.

blatantly false. No marines can take special weapons

I think my tactical squads' meltagun & plasma gun would like a word with you

I can think of several quick fixes that many Tau players have been begging for, just off of the top of my head, yet the changes that were made, were ones that people didn't seem to even really want that much, like sniper drones (which are only good if you spend exorbitant points on maxed squads and ethereals), and pathfinders going full squish mode, or drones going t4. As this thread has shown, it also removed a lot of things that Tau players have come to love about the army, like vehicle target locks, or shield drones taking their owner's save. It also failed to give Tau players things that we've been asking for in the long interrim - another troop choice (drones? Stealth suits? Would have been very easy to do), good flyers, more vehicle options, more alien auxiliaries, FOC swaps for certain units, ability to do theme lists like "all-drone", "all-kroot", "all-suit", and "why are there 30 devilfish hulls" .

I'm making no comment about the quality of the book - I'm sure it has some great units, and lots of strategy and high-level things for supercool tactical players who think they're better than other people because they win. I just want to have fun making models and pushing them around the table with my friends' models, and have lots of different surprising armies that I can use each week so I can have fun stories to tell about "that time I had 200 termagants on the table versus full IG tank spam" or "Bob the Fire Warrior has held out miraculously for 4 combat rounds on his own against 5 terminators, killing one terminator out of pure spite for death.", or my personal favorite, "My broadsides charge your hive tyrant. No, I'm not joking."

 Exergy wrote:


blatantly false. No marines can take special weapons

whuuuuuu...

 Exergy wrote:

 acekevin8412 wrote:


Pretty sure, Marines of most flavours can take a Special/Heavy weapon surrounded by bolter boys.

blatantly false. No marines can take special weapons

Except, of course, for the ones that can.

uberjoras wrote:
This codex really just pointed out how squishy crisis suits are without taking huge advantage of an unreliable 4+ look out sir on a character up front. For optimal defense, you go character with 2 weapons and a shield gen (or 1 weapon, shield gen, stim) , then shield drones closest to him, then the other 2 suits. Only problem is, it's really not too reliable, 25% of the time your expensive specialized setup will just net you a dead crisis suit. That's about how likely it is for a broadside to pen a rhino now, too

I feel like the book was rushed out by someone very inexperienced with Tau. Lots of silly things abound, like burst cannons versus SMS on hammerheads, vespids going up in cost, kroot getting so much weaker when they supposedly can go toe-to-toe with an ork boy, stealth suits getting even weaker, devilfish not going down in points, and one serious pet peeve of mine - odd point costs on crisis suits, and increase in cost for melta, burst cannons, flamers, and missile pods which were clearly costed so as to be even multiples of 5.

You puzzle me.

The things you bring up (besides the Devilfish) seem off some how. Yes you can complain about these things but at the same time I think its more of your play style that is making it bad for you. Having played with the new Tau, the old Tau, and against both, I have to say that your worries are just plain misconstruded. Yes ther is MORE that could be done, but when has that NOT been the case with any codex?

The new Tau is an improvement, and you can cry, moan, *****, your way around the table but it wont change a thing, so unless you go back to playing the last Tau codex (which I shudder to think of those that would. . . ) Just stop. Why dont you come up with ways to improve your game play. I for one play this game for "fun" so if your going to say that you "push plastic around the table" and are not competitive then come up with ways to fix your issues, you have a full codex of synergy built in. Take a look and find your version.

(Rant is not in anger and mild annoyance)

Remember: this codex ended the world.

...but on the off chance the world does spin tomorrow, I have to say, a little more sunshine will reach our hooves with this codex around.

The new codex is... impressive in its capabilities. The built in flaws are going to get caught by opponents. Crusaders just got more popular I imagine (think about it...) and of course Dark Eldar are going to really enjoy fighting Tau if they are smart about it (again... think about it for a second...)

Tau are the future. lets all agree on that. the good guys are finally winning. All is as it should be in Whoville.

@lysenis, I see what you mean; I'm not trying to complain about Tau overly much, but really, crunch some numbers - FW are equal to vespids point for point at shooting marines now, which is only very mildly offset by the better vespid statline.

My gripes really boil down to the fact that Vetock writes very poorly internally and externally balanced codexes - with lots of "meh" and some "amazing" thrown in - see Riptide vs stealth suits, or pathfinders/piranhas vs everything else in FA, or the entire HS slot. If I wanted 2+ heavy weapon carriers, I'd use oblits, not broadsides. Slow tanks with scary blasts? IG or any vindicator. Snipers? Eldar *troops*. Skyrays are so 1-trick with their ponies that it's almost a bit ridiculous, mostly due to the awkward seeker missile wording on a vehicle always firing its own seekers. And none of those units have any real character besides maybe sniper drones doing JSJ just to kill themselves with DT since they're camped in terrain most of the time.

For context, I play with a bunch of grognards, who are great to RP with, but totally take their wargaming way too seriously. My latest game versus an eldar corsair player outside of my usual group was super fun, and taught me a lot about how to improve the way I play my army. I still felt like his old codexes brought more to the table than I could possibly field even with a handicap, and he had 2 SC's and a farseer taking up probably a third of his list, compared to my 1 ethereal.

You see this in every game ( digital and boardgames ) that the mentallity that every nerf means now that its "useless" and if it have some flaws that your oppoment can exploit the army/unit is especially useless.

As a gamedesigner myself, i can only shake my head.

Personally, i think Tau currently allow for a lot of different lists without being useless, you can go Crisis heavy, or riptide heavy, broadsides or hammerheads without causing your army to be a "automatic lose" which certian armies can manage to put themselves into a auto-lose if they dont follow 1-2 set-lists. And more importantly: other armies have a chance against you, thats about being balanced is all about: To go up against a oppoment you can actually beat.

My gripes really boil down to the fact that Vetock writes very poorly internally and externally balanced codexes - with lots of "meh" and some "amazing" thrown in - see Riptide vs stealth suits, or pathfinders/piranhas vs everything else in FA, or the entire HS slot. If I wanted 2+ heavy weapon carriers, I'd use oblits, not broadsides. Slow tanks with scary blasts? IG or any vindicator. Snipers? Eldar *troops*. Skyrays are so 1-trick with their ponies that it's almost a bit ridiculous, mostly due to the awkward seeker missile wording on a vehicle always firing its own seekers. And none of those units have any real character besides maybe sniper drones doing JSJ just to kill themselves with DT since they're camped in terrain most of the time.

Wait, your complaint is that Vetock didn't include a bunch of non Tau units in the Tau codex, or carbon copies of said units? That doesn't make any sense. I just disagree with just about everything you posted here. I think Tau is one of the most internally and externally balanced codexes we've seen yet this edition.

Well, I'm not sure about that, a few inner balance issues are still there (like stealth suits and vespids still underwhelming)

But its is overall a good codex, lots of options, lots of fun and generally kicks ass, while not being too good at it.


(also, why do people keep mentioning DE as if they will decimate Tau, they are the only army I manage to blow off the table every single time.)

I don't think there is anything wrong with Stealth suits or Vespids, honestly, there is just a lot of appeal to the units they compete against. You can't really do much more to buff either of these units without breaking them, Stealth suits in particular. 2++ guys that can deploy basically anyway they want and can allow other units to deploy without scatter? Oh, and can bring along Fusion Blasters to boot? Whats not to like there. They just aren't Crisis Suits, and people really, really like crisis suits.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't think there is anything wrong with Stealth suits or Vespids, honestly, there is just a lot of appeal to the units they compete against. You can't really do much more to buff either of these units without breaking them, Stealth suits in particular. 2++ guys that can deploy basically anyway they want and can allow other units to deploy without scatter? Oh, and can bring along Fusion Blasters to boot? Whats not to like there. They just aren't Crisis Suits, and people really, really like crisis suits.

Vespids want to get into melee combat.. and while it is great they have I5.. the WS3 and S3 and 1 attack on the Strain Leader kind of hurt things.
Stealth suits want you to be jumping in and out of cover.. but that is a risky proposition when you have to take a Dangerous Terrain test every time you do so. Don't have to give them Move through Cover, just a new rule that says they don't have to take a Dangerous Terrain test when jumping into or out of Dangerous Terrain..

ShadarLogoth wrote:

My gripes really boil down to the fact that Vetock writes very poorly internally and externally balanced codexes - with lots of "meh" and some "amazing" thrown in - see Riptide vs stealth suits, or pathfinders/piranhas vs everything else in FA, or the entire HS slot. If I wanted 2+ heavy weapon carriers, I'd use oblits, not broadsides. Slow tanks with scary blasts? IG or any vindicator. Snipers? Eldar *troops*. Skyrays are so 1-trick with their ponies that it's almost a bit ridiculous, mostly due to the awkward seeker missile wording on a vehicle always firing its own seekers. And none of those units have any real character besides maybe sniper drones doing JSJ just to kill themselves with DT since they're camped in terrain most of the time.

Wait, your complaint is that Vetock didn't include a bunch of non Tau units in the Tau codex, or carbon copies of said units? That doesn't make any sense. I just disagree with just about everything you posted here. I think Tau is one of the most internally and externally balanced codexes we've seen yet this edition.

I agree with both of you, actually.

So far, the 6th edition codices come off the same way the Necron codex does:

- Each slot, except for troops, has a few "eh" units that aren't really worth taking... except in fluffy/non-competitive lists. Vespids, Raptors, Darkshrouds, Lychguard, etc, are all supbar compared to other units in the respective slots.

- Some of the wargear lacks imagination. This is incredibly noticable in the CSM and CD codices. If you have them all, look at both 6th chaos codices, then look at the Grey Knight codex, and compare their wargear section and their special rules. Do you notice a stark difference in the amount of gear and imagination between the Gk codex and the Chaos codices? The GK codex has tons of stuff that shows tons of imagination. The Chaos codices... not so much. This is crap, because CSM have a literally unending supply of unique gear, what with the whole "warp and randomness" thing. Hell, GK Inquisitors have a better way to have random daemon weapons that CSM or even Daemons do.

It's all about how invested a person is in the army. I pointed this out when the Necron codex came out; it is obvious that mat Ward put more imagination and work into the GK codex than the Necron codex. Either he was poked and prodded into making the GK codex full of stuff, or he simply liked them more. Regardless, it's dumb, and that's why 6th codices feel a bit empty.

Well, I only use Tau as an allied detachment and nothing has really changed in my list. I use a commander that has some extra benefits (c&c, drone controller, mss and iridium) with the same three broadsides (now with skyfire, HYMP and four missile drones). So minor changes to my fire base. They still sit behind an AGL with my lootas and FW squad. I cannot see taking a riptide over lootas. Problem is that the new codex requires marker drones or TL weapons or a drone controller for BS5 missiles. I don't think it was well thought ot at all. That said, the puretide chip is almost OP and skyfire/interceptor everywhere is nice indeed. IKt allows me more flexibility with my Orks. I find it amusing that I need to use two tier two codexes to make a tier one list (debatable).

I pretty much agree with McNinja. And speaking of investment ... I will play Tau because I've invested in using them as allies. That has not changed. I now have the bonus of skyfire and supporting fire. I have a puretide chip. I have mss. So I'm happy enough. I reiterate what I previously posted - Tau will be suited best to an allied detachment role.

@shadar, no, If I wanted those units, I'd ally them I just want something that can honestly compete at a similar level - oblits are far and away better than a broadside in very many ways, the least of which is that they can move and still shoot stuff. Kroot now are not meant for mobile or agressive play - kroot are gunline units now, and have very little use in CC as even a deterrent or speedbump.

@mcninja, you bring up a really good point, something I think many players have been feeling without explicitly saying. One of the big complaints in my area for DA is that besides the dakka banner of PFG, there's really no good customization options for DA. It's either banner PFG libby or tech, on bike or TDA, and would you like fries with that?

CSM suffer a similar fate, in that you're probably just using juggernaught/bike with 1/3 actually good weapon options, or a sorcerer because yay psychic powers. DP's have been pretty scarce my area, so I'm guessing they're underwhelming for their points.

Tau have fairly good HQ options, but I'm actually pretty underwhelmed by them as well. A cadre fireblade isn't good if you want to play mobile (and is 100% uncustomizable), and for a static gunline, ethereals are probably better - but those are just a giant "if I die, Tau player loses almost by default". Commanders in general are okay, I think the standout is shadowsun. It simply makes me frustrated that I can't do anything to customize any HQ slot outside of commanders.

If I could take multiples of the special wargear, or had a couple new options beyond interceptor/precision shot (or a super expensive skyfire), that would make me very happy with crisis suits - even if it was like the CiB from last codex, or a small blast weapon, or even onager gauntlet suit squads, You can't seriously say those would be OP or not fun to play/against. (And it would've driven sales of a new crisis suit box...)

But alas, the words printed are what we are left with.

I'm wondering why tau players are complaining they're dependent on marker lights. It seems to me that markerlights are kind of like nice little divination pskers. They really help shooting without having runes of warding ruining their fun.. Why complain that you hate having to use a useful piece of wargear? It makes sense in fluff as well. I imagine that tau ( in their peace-loving ways), aren't trained as thoroughly as space marines or dedicate centuries to mastering warfare like eldar aspect, which is why they're BS 3. The markerlights show that they rely on technology to make up for lack of training and experience.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
I'm wondering why tau players are complaining they're dependent on marker lights. It seems to me that markerlights are kind of like nice little divination pskers. They really help shooting without having runes of warding ruining their fun.. Why complain that you hate having to use a useful piece of wargear? It makes sense in fluff as well. I imagine that tau ( in their peace-loving ways), aren't trained as thoroughly as space marines or dedicate centuries to mastering warfare like eldar aspect, which is why they're BS 3. The markerlights show that they rely on technology to make up for lack of training and experience.

Well fire warriors are sent to fire warrior school. Im fine with BS 3 on most things, but was sad that a simple earth caste engineer couldn't upgrade the targeting system on those giant suits. little sad such a technologically progressive race.

uberjoras wrote:
My gripes really boil down to the fact that Vetock writes very poorly internally and externally balanced codexes - with lots of "meh" and some "amazing" thrown in - see Riptide vs stealth suits, or pathfinders/piranhas vs everything else in FA, or the entire HS slot.

I'm not sure I agree. To me it seems that literally every unit in the new Tau book is potentially useful in a list. There are not very many books that I can say that about-- Tau might actually be the only one. Even Space Marines, one of the most internally balanced books in the game, has its Vanguard Veterans, Legion of the Damned, and Honor Guard-- Tau don't seem to.

uberjoras wrote:
If I wanted 2+ heavy weapon carriers, I'd use oblits, not broadsides. Slow tanks with scary blasts? IG or any vindicator. Snipers? Eldar *troops*. Skyrays are so 1-trick with their ponies that it's almost a bit ridiculous, mostly due to the awkward seeker missile wording on a vehicle always firing its own seekers. And none of those units have any real character besides maybe sniper drones doing JSJ just to kill themselves with DT since they're camped in terrain most of the time.

You seem to be evaluating Tau units through the lens of other units that they aren't analogous to. Obliterators, for instance, carry a wide range of heavy weapons, but they can't use the same weapons every turn and the weapons they have are radically inferior to those brought by Broadsides. Obliterators are more like super-Terminators rather than a true heavy weapon unit-- very flexible but not efficient for bringing weapons to the table. Similarly, the Hammerhead is a lot more than just a "slow tank with scary blasts."

Alas...and so from this thread it seems I shall not be wasting 50 bucks and will be sticking to the custom codex I made on here...

What's the point of adding new units and nerfing old ones if you're not going to fix the original problems with the codex...

I await the day that games workshop releases an online and stops releasing a paperback codex for each race, then updates the online one consistently rather than treating what is essentially an MMTWG like it comes on an n64. Imagine the balance that would occur when they could respond to customer complaints. Imagine how much money they'd save by not having to print the codex, and how much profit they'd make by pleasing their fanbase. The new releases look epic for every army...but as soon as I hear that half of them are utterly useless I immediately don't want to spend my money.

An online codex that meant they could tweak things would solce the problem so much better. There wouldn't be a problem over the bomber rules because they could update it a week after release.

And the ad revune they would make from people visiting their site to download the codecies and codex changes...oh man...

 dbsamurai wrote:
Alas...and so from this thread it seems I shall not be wasting 50 bucks and will be sticking to the custom codex I made on here...

What's the point of adding new units and nerfing old ones if you're not going to fix the original problems with the codex...

What was the original problems with the codex?

You can launch ships into space, but you can't give them upgrades targeting systems? Sad, so sad.

 Miri wrote:

Vespids want to get into melee combat..

...Stealth suits want you to be jumping in and out of cover.. but that is a risky proposition... .

eh... No. Stingwings do not want to get into combat.

Stealthsuits jumping into cover and then IF they roll a 1, getting a save is a chance Im willing to take.

Dangerous terrain checks aren't too risky. There is always the off chance that you'll fail the check and the save, but it's the same odds for a crisis suit. Crisis suits just have the benefit of having multiple wounds. I also really don't see them needing to jump right into terrain though, since the unit only needs to get 25% obscured to get the 2+ save.

Really the stealth suits downfall is the same as the last edition. They are too expensive compared to crisis suits, they are weaker than crisis suits (single wound T3 vice 2W T4), and they aren't as well equipped because of the forced weapon load out. Now that Crisis suits can take double fusion it's even worse for stealth suits since a single deepstriking crisis suit can have the same anti-armor capability as a 190 point unit. It's really puzzling why they thought the unit was fine as is.

Stealth suits can Outflank and have 2+ saves under normal conditions thanks to Stealth and Shrouded. They honestly seem like a very strong option to me thanks to their ability to threaten the back lines, "home objectives," etc. I wouldn't take fusion blasters though-- burst cannons should be sufficient against rear/side armor anyway.