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someone throw TK a pitty vote.

tgf wrote:
someone throw TK a pitty vote.

I did but not for pity, I've been playing tomb Kings ar all my events in 2013, haven't won anything big, nor have I ended up in the bottom half of any event. I've done rather well in the grand scheme of things. Only Army I worry about in skaven, and they are some tough cookies at events. I do have a poor track record against empire at tournaments, however in friendly games I do not.

You're not going to be killing woc with NG short bows. I don't buy that. They're going to be out of range the entire time, then long range for a round, then in combat.

You break Steadfast by doing ridiculous damage. Which WoC does. There's no magic steadfast can opener other than that. If Steadfast was unbeatable, then O&G would be top tier. WoC is super fast so all those war machines you listed get a handful of shots and then are done.

We can get in super theorycraft but everything you list WoC has at least one direct counter. Obviously people aren't taking direct counters unless they know what they are facing, so the question of all-comers vs. all-comers is a lot more difficult, but you make it sound like an instant win for O&G, which I don't believe.

DukeRustfield wrote:
You're not going to be killing woc with NG short bows. I don't buy that. They're going to be out of range the entire time, then long range for a round, then in combat.

You break Steadfast by doing ridiculous damage. Which WoC does. There's no magic steadfast can opener other than that. If Steadfast was unbeatable, then O&G would be top tier. WoC is super fast so all those war machines you listed get a handful of shots and then are done.

We can get in super theorycraft but everything you list WoC has at least one direct counter. Obviously people aren't taking direct counters unless they know what they are facing, so the question of all-comers vs. all-comers is a lot more difficult, but you make it sound like an instant win for O&G, which I don't believe.

I'm talking all-comers here and that's what an all-comers Goblin list looks like. The only comp list for O&G is gunline. NG shortbows won't kill any Warriors or heavy cavalry, ofc not, they simply shoot at everything nearby e.g. Chaos Wolves that want to get rid of Fanatics or MSU Marauders. WoC aren't super fast. They have Marauder riders, which die to shortbows, Chaos Knights, which die in turn 1 or 2, or Skullcrushers which need to face Doom Divaz / Spear Chukkaz as well. WoC rely on very small, elite units and O&G excel at taking those out with their units.

O&G are far from top tier. Skaven, as overpowered as they are, do everything O&G do, just a lot better. Lizardmen have way superior magic etc. O&G are solid mid tier. WoC are as well, though I'd say post-nerf, they're slightly below average. The main reason why those aren't top tier is because they are balanced. O&G are a masterpiece of balance whereas Lizardmen are a masterpiece of terrible balance, same as Skaven. If you'Re too balanced, you can't compete and fall back to mid tier.

I love my beastmen don't care what any of you say. The only negative I see with OnG is no BRB Lore access.

tgf wrote:
I love my beastmen don't care what any of you say. The only negative I see with OnG is no BRB Lore access.

No way to really make a power house out of casting (spamming channels at catchweb shrine is too expensive).
Serious leadership issues.
Animosity.
25mm bases on fairly crap troops, takes up too much space. You're giving your opponent 12% more frontage to hit you back. (ie, my 20mm horde can hit you, along with 3 chariots in your front).
Only 2 lores, one of which is below average (little waaaagh).
I'm surprised to see skaven doing so well in the polls. It's a solid army, but when things go a little sideways, units don't recover.


-Matt

NG shamans are excellent spell casters. A lvl 1 NG shaman gets, on average, a +4 bonus on every spell casting attempt. That's pretty darn good for 50 pts. The Little Waaagh "suffers" from being perfectly balanced yet still is a very reliable lore. Flanking Squigs + Nasty Stabbin' [forcing sexual intercourse] face.

Skaven can deal with everything, they have very effective units, the best tarpit in the entire game, potent magic and the highest effective LD in the game. LD 9-10 across the board is just...wow.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:
I love my beastmen don't care what any of you say. The only negative I see with OnG is no BRB Lore access.

No way to really make a power house out of casting (spamming channels at catchweb shrine is too expensive).
Serious leadership issues.
Animosity.
25mm bases on fairly crap troops, takes up too much space. You're giving your opponent 12% more frontage to hit you back. (ie, my 20mm horde can hit you, along with 3 chariots in your front).
Only 2 lores, one of which is below average (little waaaagh).
I'm surprised to see skaven doing so well in the polls. It's a solid army, but when things go a little sideways, units don't recover.


-Matt

How are you getting a 20mm horde and three chariots into them, just clipping the last man of your horde still takes up 180mm+ and then your looking to get three chariots in which requires you to have 80mm+ to work with?

how do you figure orc's are crap troops, orc with xhw and choppa rule yes please. As far as leadership goes most armies are a 7 i wouldn't call it crap its average. Then there are the big'uns who really really good troops.

A few points:

1. Orcs & Goblins have an extra random element. Even though it can benefit you more than it can hurt, I think it overall takes the army down a peg.

2. Goblin characters have bad leadership.

3. Night Gobbo shamans suffer from Loss of Concentration if their Mushroom Die comes up "1", which means I'll never field one higher than a lvl2.

4. Orcs have decent Toughness and a decent amount of damage output. But everything else about them is about average. Given their cost, that's fair. Then consider their base size, and things are a little iffy.
Big 'Uns are a different story. There's next to zero reasons to not take that upgrade.

5. Skaven have some good stuff, a lot of okay stuff, and some crap. On one end, you've got stuff like Grey Seers, Skavenslaves, Warp Lightning Cannons and the Storm Banner. On the other, you've got stuff like Vermin Lords, Night Runners, Jezzail Teams, and the Vermintide spell.

Don't get me wrong; I think Skaven have a strong book and everything. It's just that there's really only one tournament Skaven list.
I'd gladly downgrade the Best Stuff in the book if it meant more viable options.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:
I love my beastmen don't care what any of you say. The only negative I see with OnG is no BRB Lore access.

No way to really make a power house out of casting (spamming channels at catchweb shrine is too expensive).
Serious leadership issues.
Animosity.
25mm bases on fairly crap troops, takes up too much space. You're giving your opponent 12% more frontage to hit you back. (ie, my 20mm horde can hit you, along with 3 chariots in your front).
Only 2 lores, one of which is below average (little waaaagh).
I'm surprised to see skaven doing so well in the polls. It's a solid army, but when things go a little sideways, units don't recover.


-Matt

How are you getting a 20mm horde and three chariots into them, just clipping the last man of your horde still takes up 180mm+ and then your looking to get three chariots in which requires you to have 80mm+ to work with?

20mm horde is 200mm.
25mm horde is 250mm.
Chariot goes in, corner to corner. 20mm horde lines with chariot. This leaves 50mm on front open. Chariot then goes in shoulder to shoulder (axle to shoulder anyway). 3rd chariot goes corner to corner.
Since the horde + 1 chariot is 250mm, and your horde is 250mm, that still leaves both corners open.
I've done this repeated vs 25mm hordes with my dark elves. 60 spearmen into the front, along with 2 chariots and a hydra (or dreadlord on peg).

Orcs are super average. They are a good unit for the price, but being average means that slightly above average units can exploit them.
Orcs like a real powerhouse lord build.

For me to say an army is a top army, it has to reliably place in the upper levels. Reliable, is something O&G lack.

If you wanted to pick who's the best spoiler army, I'd pick O&G. In a take all comers list, I think they have one of the best shots at knocking down anyone. I just don't think they can keep it together for a 3 to 5 game tournament all that often.

 JesusFreak wrote:
Hi all,

Been away from the game for a while, and looking to get back into it. I'm curious to know what are the current top tier armies in this edition of WFB and why?

Can you add Chaos dwarfs? It's a legal 8th edition playable army with the Tamurkhan book

HawaiiMatt wrote:


For me to say an army is a top army, it has to reliably place in the upper levels. Reliable, is something O&G lack.

If you wanted to pick who's the best spoiler army, I'd pick O&G. In a take all comers list, I think they have one of the best shots at knocking down anyone. I just don't think they can keep it together for a 3 to 5 game tournament all that often.

This, pretty much. All top tier armies have reliable overpowered stuff e.g. Double Slann, Hydras, Slaves etc. Those things work without much effort. O&G are amazingly well balanced and thus can't compete on a Top Tier level.

I don't know if I would put them with Tomb Kings, but also Empire I find can definitely be much better than Tomb Kings. Warriors of Chaos do have downsides, like lack of range and difficulty with Steadfast. But they can still be really good.

However, I suppose it is probably a good thing that they are on the same level with multiple 8th Edition books, that just means that the balancing of the books is actually working to some degree.

Chaos Dwarfs?

 pities2004 wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs?

Not played them, but I hear the Lore of Hashut is pretty nasty. Please make these guys a proper army again GW

 Flashman wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs?

Not played them, but I hear the Lore of Hashut is pretty nasty. Please make these guys a proper army again GW

They are a proper army in Europe

Chaos Dwarfs arent actually real of course. Simply stories about Dwaves who want to be real Dwarves but are angry they cant be.

Also Warhammer and GW all together does not need anymore Chaos armies or evil armies. There are too many as is. Just go back to Girdes of Chaos and bring in better more interesting stuff.

 Flashman wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs?

Not played them, but I hear the Lore of Hashut is pretty nasty. Please make these guys a proper army again GW

I wouldn't call it nasty, ash storm and flames of azgorh are great spells but if you don't get them your basically after wasting a wizard

Chaos Dwarfs really mix opinions, mainly because they have awful internal balance but average external balance.

Things like their magic, the K'Daii and war machines are incredibly good, but at the same time it still has all the movement drawbacks of Dwarfs and doesn't have much in the way of good troops.

What this means is that the good stuff is awesome, and the bad stuff is awful (personally I hate books that balance out like this, I think it's lazy game-design), which can create some really bad games- you can either deal with their toys that win them the games in which case you have a good chance, or you can't in which case you get steam-rolled and it's not even a game.

Another issue with them is the cost of the book- it's quite expensive to get hold of even compared to other GW army books, which means that most people haven't read it so a number of the rules come out of the blue. It's also because of this that a number of CD players don't help their army's cause by, and we'll be charitable here, getting some of their rules wrong because they're not in common circulation and thus easier to play wrong.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Flashman wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:
Chaos Dwarfs?

Not played them, but I hear the Lore of Hashut is pretty nasty. Please make these guys a proper army again GW

They are a proper army in Europe

Same in the USA. Never had any issues at FLGS or gw stores.