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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

I didn't say Chaos ruled the skies. GW did. Do you find the concept of orbital vs. deep space control that hard to grasp? GW has said Chaos has local orbital superiority. GW has also said the Imperium has deep space superiority. The two are different things and NOT contradictory.

GW said that Imperium rules the skies, you have just presented that quote yourself, only you have swapped Imperium for Chaos.
You contradicted yourself.

I have done no such thing. You dare accuse others of lying and falsifying data when it is you who are ignorant? Go look for the official GW newsletters, reproduced here:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/newsletter_f.html

And many other sites around the world also have copies, all of which say the same thing because they are all copies of the original that was on the GW Eye of Terror website. All of them say "Chaos rules the skies above Cadia"

Skies, not the space itself. They can still get no reinforcements since IN will engage every ship that get's to close to the planet itself. And it seems that Imperial Navy can still reinforce the city, since they can send reinforcements that means that Chaos is not in full control of the skies.

And I have found proof that 13'th Black Crusade is still not over in Chaos own codex, page 57.
It says that battle is far from over and that the fate of the gate hangs in balance, that sound like stalemate to me for now.

You really think that Necrons will allow them that?
It has been in the previous fluff, I don't know if it was rewritten but when Chaos forces tried to destroy pylons Necron warriors phased in and defend them. Either way, I am pretty sure Necron too will interact if Chaos start demolishing their structures.

The Necrons aren't *on* Cadia. They don't really have the opportunity to do anything about it. Daemons are something that give the Necrons pause, because they are the only foe who gives not one single feth about the robots' dimension-hopping abilities.

The Necrons wanna get fancy and shift into a hyper-dimensional space? Glorious... the Daemonic Hordes follow, finding this just another flavor of Reality to warp and corrupt.

... and this is expressly noted in the current Necron Codex. There may not be much the Necrons can do to stop the horde on Cadia.

Of course, all of this is moot, because this will, in all likelihood, never be represented in the fluff or the in the product line.

If Iracundus sources are legit and right then Lexicanum is wrong again:

"The Thirteenth Black Crusade was the background to the worldwide Warhammer 40,000 Eye of Terror Campaign, which resulted in a minor victory for the forces of Chaos and gave Abaddon a foothold in the Cadian Gate, though he suffered grievous losses to his fleet.
While the ground is largely controlled by the forces of Chaos, the skies above Cadia are almost entirely ruled by Admiral Quarren and the entire Battle Fleet Groups: Gothic and Solar and elements of several chapters of Space Marines, leaving the results open as the battle rages on. Having both space and air superiority gives a significant advantage to the Imperial forces, allowing the deployment of fresh troops and the bombardment of Abaddon's army."

Lexicanum says that Imperium controls both sky and space, while this article says it controls only space around planet but not orbital stations themselves.

 Psienesis wrote:

Of course, all of this is moot, because this will, in all likelihood, never be represented in the fluff or the in the product line.

Off course, what I am trying to say is this is one major galactic event that will have effects on everyone, not just Imperium. Eladr already intervened so why won't them? Especially if Chaos threatens their existence.
And those pylons are supposedly built by them, to just leave their own technology like that to be ravaged is not like them at all.

Even the 40kwiki states :"Minor Chaos victory; Imperium of Man retains naval superiority in Cadian Gate; operations ongoing"

Iracundus' sources are legit. There's a post here on the forums where he links back to the original GW publications and Battle Reports from the actual event.

Also, unlike the Imperium, Chaos does not need to ship in reinforcements from space. They simply open a Gate and, on some Traitor Legion World deep in the Eye, the other end opens and then 5000 Traitor Marines and 12 Divisions of Thrall-soldiers march through, putting a million boots on Cadian soil in a matter of an hour.

Chaos has much more heavy hitter s than any other singular force- Exhalted Greater Daemons like An'ngrath and Daemon Primarchs. Angron took a full Brotherhood of GK to put down, so if we assume the Daenon Primarchs are somewhere between GD and Exhalted GD, they its going to take roughly ALL of the GK to put down just them. Lorgar, Angron, Perturabo, Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim is 600 already.An'ngrath will probably take at least 100, maybe add on 25 Purifiers or so. Tzeentch Daemon Lord the same. Now there is just however many Purifiers they have after that, the Paladins nd Command stff like Captains. I suppose Draigo and a ommand squad ofGrand Masters and Paladins is a Brotherhood in itself. So that leaves 90 or so Paladins to deal with the final Daemon Lord or Nurgle. Which leaves the hundreds of GDs and DPs not to mention Heralds and Lessers.

I suppose Space Marknes would be able to dealith them ok.
Wolrd Eaters might band together under Angron. Blood Angels universally unite to stop them head to head.
Space Wolves take the T-Sons?
Iron Hand's descendents vs Emperor's Children?
Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors
Raven Guard vs Night Lords
Salamanders vs Alpha Legion?
Dark Angels vs Death Guard?
Ultramarines and their 10000000000 descendents grudge matchith Word Bearers.
And that leaves White Scars to tangle up Black Legion for a while with the IG dying by the wheelbarrow.

But of course, the Imperium has opportunity for alliances. Make friends with Eldar of both shapes to fight Chaos. Craftworld certainly.
Orks, well, promise a battle unmatched by any before or since.
Tau, in return for a large area of space.
Which just leaves Necrons but they dislike Chaos as much as the Imperium so a temporary alliance might be able. And of course they would be great for protecting the Imperium from the Nids during the Crusade, being non-Biomass. Theyould see it as defnding their Empire.


But now we have a problem. With the GK out of service vs the heavyhitters, Eldar will be apprehensive about fighting Slaanesh Daemons but they would pull through.
Orks would take on Khorne in a scrap any day of the month.
And Tau would have a shootout with Tzeentch and win easy.
And Nurgle can be taken out by whatever's availible.

But what about the V Legions? The Scars? They won't hold the Black Legion, ad no one could hope to beat Abaddon.


Unless...
The Primarchs return. Vulkan find the last artifact, the Kharn returned from the Webway or is released, Russ storms onto the scene from the Eye with the 13th Company. Guilliman heals. That frees up some GK to help. Russ can fight Magnus, Vulkan and Mortarion, Khan as an overall leader and Guilliman as tactnician and vs Lorgar, allowing Draigo to take the fight to Abaddon, alongside Calgar, Dante, Tu'shan, the RG, White Scars IH and IF masters, Azrael and Logan, alongside their allies, Ghrazkull, Vect, Shadowsun and Farsight, reunited under wsr, and the Avatar of Khaine in a Glorious last stand vs Abaddon and his guard. Dante squares up to Kharne. Logan and Ahriman, joined by Azrael in a sincere act of brotherhood. Tushan and Typhus. The IH and Lucius. The IF, RG, WS masters, along with Clagar and Draigo, approach Ezekyle, while Samael whi and Belial, against orders, arrive to aid Logan and Azrael vs rhe magicks of Ahriman. Khaine, Ghraz, and Vect lay into theChosen and Terninators kf the bodyguard. Farsight unleashes the Dawn Blade's full power and takes apart the Cult troops while Shadowsun battles a hulking Helbrute.

In a glorious war within a War, Abaddon dies. So does the big 4. Lucius decapites the IH master only to be crushed by the foot of the Avatar, a being so overcone with rage it cannot feel pride. Typhus is crushed by the hamer blows of Tushan who.is in turn ripped apart by the Zombies. The IF and WS masters also dead. Dante is alive but barely, Kharne's skull already flayed away from flesh. Ahriman's body lies over that of Logan and Azrael, Samael desperately trying to cling to life as Belial tries to save him. Calgar holds on because of Mary Sue. Ghrazkull retunrs from his rampage, adamantium skull nearly takeb off where he fought Abaddon, who fought back like a Daenon, slaying the 2 Masters, followed by the RG master eing laid low as was Calgar. Gaz chafed and the Clash of the Titans began. Abaddon won but he was weakened enough so Draigo could save him. Draigo did not get sucked back into the Warp this time. He turned around to see the 3 surviving Prinarchs carrying Guilliman, and now Lion has joined them. T along with Corax. They lay him before Calgar. He is truly dead this time. Each Primarch goes to his fallen Champion. The Lion and the Wolf openly weep. Khan.muttered ancient death prayers. Vulkan brands himself with the Spear of Vulkan.


Draigo turned towards the entrance. A golden figure is there, Dawwrfing the Primarchs, His sons.



Spoiler for 40k 7th addition fluff!

I dont think GW seriously considers the results of a campaign to be official background. They are reporting the results of a promotional event.

Cadia is not going to be over run and destroyed by chaos anymore than Fenris or any other planet that is central to the background of IoM.

 Deadshot wrote:
so if we assume the Daenon Primarchs are somewhere between GD and Exhalted GD

The Daemon Primarchs are the most powerful servants of Chaos per the most recent fluff.

Lorgar beat up An'ggrath before he ever ascended.

Simply by gaining a foothold on Cadia, Abbadon's scored a big victory. But he'll lose eventually. Then send another black crusade.

Cadia will fall. The Segmentum Obscuris will burn. The Segmentum Solar will be breached. Terra will be besieged. The End Times will come.

I'm not optimistic that GW is brave enough to go that route.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm not optimistic that GW is brave enough to go that route.

Yeah, very disappointing. I hate last stands, but they're way better than stalemates.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
The Chaos threw everything they had and only managed to win out an stalemate, and the Imperium main reinforcements had not yet arrived.

In the end it will be hard won Imperial victory, but the real question is will the Cadia be able to rebuild fast enough for the 14'th Black Crusade?

I think this is why Abaddon will eventually win. His forces strike at weakpoints in the Imperial lines, cause massive devastation, and then quickly withdraw to the Eye before the main IOM forces can arrive.
Eventually it will wear down the IOM, as it keeps having to juggle the possibility of another crusade with the permanent threats of the Xenos and internal affairs (heretics etc).
Think of it as waves of ocean water wearing down a rock.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

I didn't say Chaos ruled the skies. GW did. Do you find the concept of orbital vs. deep space control that hard to grasp? GW has said Chaos has local orbital superiority. GW has also said the Imperium has deep space superiority. The two are different things and NOT contradictory.

GW said that Imperium rules the skies, you have just presented that quote yourself, only you have swapped Imperium for Chaos.
You contradicted yourself.

Seriously ?...

And I have found proof that 13'th Black Crusade is still not over in Chaos own codex, page 57.
It says that battle is far from over and that the fate of the gate hangs in balance, that sound like stalemate to me for now.

Yeah, I even provided the quote myself. Am I not awesome ?
The Eye of Terror Campaign was never intended to seal the deal to the fall of Terra or something. It's like Armaggeddon where imperials won and there are still countless orks on the planet...

Lexicanum says that Imperium controls both sky and space, while this article says it controls only space around planet but not orbital stations themselves.
(...)
Even the 40kwiki states :"Minor Chaos victory; Imperium of Man retains naval superiority in Cadian Gate; operations ongoing"

Yeah, Lexicanum and 40kwiki are full of imperial fans who would've loved to win back then. Those aren't reliable sources. The newsletter and the book are worth quoting though. But considering the fact that those don't really go your way, I can understand you prefer the imperial fanfic version of what happened.

The White Dwarf article clearly declares it a Chaos victory. All hope wasn't lost for the Imperium with some small bright spots but nonetheless they lost the campaign. Trying to spin the campaign results otherwise in real life is the same as if Chaos players tried to spin the Heresy into Chaos winning. It is simply not what happened. It is information that was cited and which can be looked up by anyone with access to the sources and is clearly in black and white text: a minor victory for Chaos. There is not a single mention of "draw" or "stalemate" anywhere in the article or in the subsequent BL books. Those words have only ever been used by Imperial players trying to downplay the victory by Chaos. A minor victory is not a decisive victory but still a step better than a draw in most game victory scales. The principle is that it is bad sportsmanship to be unable to lose a match with good grace, and then to actually claim winning it instead. Such behavior would be ridiculous in a single 40K game, and the same should hold true for a campaign. If one side lost, admit it. The exact mechanics of the campaign were even explained in the White Dwarf article results roundup (including explicitly mentioning how the Forces of Disorder players were more organized than the Forces of Order players), yet people still persist in wanting to cling to conspiracy theories rather than admit that perhaps their side got outplayed.

If people are not aware of the history of what was happening at the time, do not try and make up stuff or try to spread misinformation about it as it seems there are already quite a few people that have heard the wrong information about what happened. Either that or they may be one of those Imperial sore losers still begrudging any side except the Imperium actually winning a campaign. Not once do you hear about such complaints, spin, or outlandish conspiracy theories about any campaign in which the Imperium did come out ahead, from Ichar IV, to Armageddon 3, to the later Medusa campaign which came after the Eye of Terror campaign. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth only happens over the one worldwide campaign where the Imperium lost. Coincidence? It is not even all Forces of Order players that try to spin the results. Although Eldar players might complain about Eldrad's death, they seemed accepting and even satisfied with their performance in the Eye of Terror campaign, such as the expulsion of Ahriman from the Webway and retaking most of one croneworld, and parts of another. I am not intending to paint all Imperial players with the same brush, but the level of sheer denial of what actually happened in the actual real life campaign I have only ever seen from Imperial players. Players of other factions had to accept their past campaign losses with good grace, and the same should hold for Imperial players.

GW's promise of storyline change and advancement (Aus WD 282, Skeins of Fate article by Graham McNeill) was done at a time when Andy Chambers was still in charge 40K development. He was notable for pushing advancement of the storyline. The White Dwarf article preceding the campaign start made the allusion that a resounding Imperial victory might lead to Imperial resurgence and the High Lords to considering reforming the Legions, while a Chaos victory would lead to a time of greater darkness with Abaddon out of the Eye. Chaos won, but GW first downplayed the significance and then backtracked the timeline. It was also in the aftermath of this campaign after the results were out, that Andy Chambers left GW. It is unclear if there was ever a link between the two. Rumor (unconfirmed to this day) was that Andy Chambers was wanting to 1) Advance the storyline 2) Substantially change the 40K rules in the next edition rather than tweaking which the higher-ups at GW wanted, and that it was this disagreement over where to take the 40K IP that led to Andy departing.

In truth, even if GW had not wanted to radically upset the setting, it could have easily incorporated the results of the campaign while still effectively maintaining the status quo. There were hints of this with mentions in the subsequent Space Marine and Tau Codex of the Tau border being stripped of Imperial forces to reinforce the Cadian Gate, resulting in the burst of Tau expansion. This reflected exactly what happened in the campaign itself which saw Imperial players ignoring the Tau front. If GW had wanted to they could have had Abaddon break out of the Gate successfully, then be bogged down before reaching Terra due to Imperial reinforcements from elsewhere, yet this still weakening the Imperium as a whole due to other factions taking advantage of the weaknesses exposed elsewhere. Even if Cadia had been written as fallen, it wouldn't have meant the end of the Cadian line. Creed and the Cadians could have been written as gearing up for a campaign to retake their homeworld. In fact, there are again mentions of this in the 13th Black Crusade BL publication, in which Creed calls upon Cadian regiments to return to contested Cadia and fight to free it from Abaddon. The quest to reclaim their home is also alluded to in the BL novel Cadian Blood which actually takes place in approximately 003.M42 (from the textual clues within the book itself).

Disclaimer: Before anyone tries to resort to more ad hominem or suggest personal bias, I have posted the White Dwarf results in this forum in the past, unedited. I also played Tyranids and Eldar during the actual Eye of Terror campaign so I was on both sides. The Tyranids lost in their chosen warzone despite the Force of Disorder winning the campaign. The Eldar won in theirs, despite the Forces of Order losing the campaign as a whole. I have no particular factional leanings in this matter, but simply a desire to get the facts of what did happen out there instead of all the hearsay and misinformation being spouted off by people that were either not present or blatantly partisan in their factional leanings.

Iracundus wrote:

Trying to spin the campaign results otherwise in real life is the same as if Chaos players tried to spin the Heresy into Chaos winning.
The principle is that it is bad sportsmanship to be unable to lose a match with good grace, and then to actually claim winning it instead.
do not try and make up stuff or try to spread misinformation about it as it seems there are already quite a few people that have heard the wrong information about what happened.
Either that or they may be one of those Imperial sore losers still begrudging any side except the Imperium actually winning a campaign.

Iracundus wrote:
Disclaimer: Before anyone tries to resort to more ad hominem or suggest personal bias, I have posted the White Dwarf results in this forum in the past, unedited. I also played Tyranids and Eldar during the actual Eye of Terror campaign so I was on both sides. The Tyranids lost in their chosen warzone despite the Force of Disorder winning the campaign. The Eldar won in theirs, despite the Forces of Order losing the campaign as a whole. I have no particular factional leanings in this matter, but simply a desire to get the facts of what did happen out there instead of all the hearsay and misinformation being spouted off by people that were either not present or blatantly partisan in their factional leanings.

We need a disclaimer now?

Maybe less wall of text?

Welcome to 2013 and 6th edition 40k. We got a CSM dex now, should provide all you need about black crusade N°13.

Can do a disclaimer too:
If we are supposed to use the published material of GW.
Because sometimes I think a few are a bit to fond of their favorite source...

Wow.

Welcome to 2013 and 6th edition 40k. We got a CSM dex now, should provide all you need about black crusade N°13.

Yeah, the BA and Orks codices got all you need to know on the Armaggeddon campaign...
Codices aren't meant to be exhaustive on that perticular topic, for the good reason that they are codices. Incredible, I know, I was looking for a full explanation on the Medusa V campaign in my codex... Never found it...
The newsletter and the book '13th Black Crusade' are the canon. Must've been painful to lost to the point of being so bitter, haha.

 Serevor wrote:

Incredible, I know,

Yes, a great treasure hoard to pick from and we get...
better fluff than 5th ed. Change happens.

 Serevor wrote:

The newsletter and the book '13th Black Crusade' are the canon. Must've been painful to lost to the point of being so bitter, haha.

the Canon?
Not really. Cannons are everywhere. Canon?

Deleted by GW and now usually dug up from Russia? ( no offense to Russia ). Yes they are.
Still current setup and themes beat 10+x year old stuff .

Painful?
What exactly is painful? The misguided belief GW would relent on their IP, their grasp on the course of 40k background? Could be painful to realize the company doesn't care and the effort put into wast lost.

So no, I am not hurt at all. Rather entertained because the whole outcome was never open. Maybe the impression was given.

better fluff than 5th ed. Change happens.

It would have been super hard to make things worse than 5th edition did.

Deleted by GW and now usually dug up from Russia? ( no offense to Russia ). Yes they are.
Still current setup and themes beat 10+x year old stuff .

I don't think you quite get it. GW doesn't delete fluff. Plus there are other sources of fluff like Forge World or Black Library that pretty much do their thing.
What happened is not changed by the newer fluff. The Realm of Chaos books still are the more precise and deep depiction of Chaos there's around. Such original sources are still mostly rock hard stuff because GW doesn't bother releasing fluffy things any more, so they might be old, but they're still the most precise things we have.

Rather entertained because the whole outcome was never open. Maybe the impression was given.

You know the imperials were supposed to win, righ ? Each time, all campaigns were made in a way to make imperial players win (their internal mechanics were built that way). Their defeat wasn't really supposed to happen .

Crushing defeat for the forces of Chaos.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
The 13th black crusade if it ever ends,.. will end with the retreat of Abbadon to come back for a 14th black crusade since otherwise the blance in power will be gone and Chaos will never be seen as a threat again (tabletop/codex wise)

IF one side realy wins all the way,.. it will be the imperium... why? Good guys are ment to win in so many of humanity's stories...

You must be new. There are no "good guys" in 40K.

Personal Canon: Cadia falls. Creed and his surviving soldiers are evacuated from Cadia at the last moment by a Rogue Trader/Inquisitor/Ecclesiarchy ship while fighting a desperate last stand. Their primary goal accomplished, the various war-bands of Chaos splinter, disappearing into the Void, some withdrawing to the Eye, having gained whatever treasures they did from various Forces of Order armies/locations they've pillaged and destroyed. The Planet-Killer and the Blackstone Fortress vanish into the Eye of Terror as well. The Imperium now has to redistribute its depleted forces to not only hunt down the Chaos raiders now flying about the galaxy, but also to recapture lost territory (or re-establish a defensive perimeter around said territory) as well as defend against pre-existing threats.

Imperial propaganda will claim that the 13th Black Crusade ends in an Imperial victory, as the Despoiler was unable to reach Terra, though the senior leaders of the Munitorum, the Inquisition, and the High Lords know full well that this was never his goal, and that the loss of Cadia is a grievous one, indeed.

Wouldnt call me new,.. been in the hobby and lore since 2007....

The Imperium exists of Humans,... Humans (uncorrupted by chaos in this instance) equals good guys... I know the Imperium are mostly Communistic Nazi's and arrogant buttholes dat deserve to die if they lived in this day and age.....

I said that because most humans are not capable of letting the human race go extinct in their stories... No matter how big the threat,.. humans will almost always make up an act of incredible valor that lets humanity win...

I think that's less a "people aren't willing to let their race die" than a "GW is not willing to stop making money".

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Cadia will fall. The Segmentum Obscuris will burn. The Segmentum Solar will be breached. Terra will be besieged. The End Times will come.

Boom, son. Pack your bags, boys. War's over... we're going home.

In an excellent book "Pawn of Chaos" Tzeentch or Lord of Change tell us that Imperium is simply just too huge to be destroyed by any single force. For me, Imperium represents decaying roman empire and barbarian hordes- chaos. I actually want that Holy Terra would be sacked and occupied by forces of chaos. While this might be impossible with an astronomican being on earth, I still think that near complete sacking is possible and later- Imperial fluff rewritement based on desperation from Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperium. I really want to see Imperium "rediscovering" a lot of their long forgotten technologies, sadly, if 13'th Black crusade is not enough to squeeze knowledge from those high-ranking fabricaton fabricator-generals personal data storages, then only the most shaking events will force them to share their secrets and to adjust their religion in order to cut out self-serving, artificial dogmas.

While Mars does hoard a lot of knowledge, it's not like they are keeping whiz-bang tech to themselves "just because". It's that they have a truly unimaginable amount of data stored away on servers that are buried under kilometers of wreckage and scrap dating back to the Heresy, perhaps earlier, that the current AdMech is entirely ignorant of having ever existed in the first damned place. A massive amount of data and information has simply, truly been forgotten, and will never, ever be rediscovered by the AdMech.

You think there's any chance the necrons would join this fight? I mean they are the ones who made the pylons in cadia.

They did, but not on Cadia itself. The Imperium has no love for the death-bots, so the chances of them arriving on Cadia without suffering attacks in orbit are slim... and even if they did, they'd need to bring a whole lotta troops to deal with that many daemons, who are noted for being pretty much immune to most of the Necrons' hyper-dimensional tricks.

Even if they did, what do you think is going to happen to Cadia once the Necrons figure out the humans have been living on their world? That's not going to be pretty, either.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

I didn't say Chaos ruled the skies. GW did. Do you find the concept of orbital vs. deep space control that hard to grasp? GW has said Chaos has local orbital superiority. GW has also said the Imperium has deep space superiority. The two are different things and NOT contradictory.

GW said that Imperium rules the skies, you have just presented that quote yourself, only you have swapped Imperium for Chaos.
You contradicted yourself.

That is correct. Imperium rules the sky an orbit, which means that, in time, they will recover the planet completely. It's only a matter of time. But, given how patient and persistent Abaddon is, just having scored a win - even a temporary one - is a big deal. When he's kicked off Cadia, he won't wait long to make another move. Plus, there is no telling what kind of damage will be done to Cadia before all is said and done.

 Traejun wrote:

That is correct. Imperium rules the sky an orbit, which means that, in time, they will recover the planet completely.

Incorrect. It has already been shown with quoted GW evidence that Chaos rules the immediate orbit above Cadia. READ the evidence.

Seriously the reason why this debate even exists in the first place is because people keep refusing to look at the evidence and insist on trying to make stuff up or repeating other people's made up stuff. GW's final campaign newsletter and the actual campaign raw results themselves clearly show Chaos in control within local Cadian space ("Chaos rules the skies above Cadia"), while the Imperium has the advantage at the sector space level. The Cadian system's Imperial Control was 29.4%. Imperial Control at sector level was 100%. That precisely matches what GW has said. A side with 29.4% control does not "rule the skies above Cadia".

Chaos has local dominance in and around Cadia, while the Imperial Navy has the advantage elsewhere. The concept really isn't that complex or hard to understand if people just actually read.

I fear xenos might rule given humanities 10,000 year bloodletting, whoevers going to when needs to do it soon so the nids necrons orks can be wiped out.