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I was just looking at the Space Marine codex and noticed that most models that can take powerfists have to pay 25pts for a weapon that puts them at S8, I1 (thus making them vulnerable to challenges), compared to the 5pt melta bombs, which are 8+2d6 vs vehicles (S8 vs MCs. It's effectively a 5pt chainfist!) and don't force you to I1 for challenges.

The only downside to the melta bombs I can see is only ever getting 1 attack, but surely the pros outweigh the cons?

Am I overstating the value of striking at initiative in combat, or are melta bombs the superior choice this edition?

Power fists give you a better chance against things like Monstrous creatures and that extra attack can be nice when you get to attack a tank with a rear armor or 10 or even 11. The meltabomb is best used against walkers that get you in combat and anything AV13 and higher.

Aren't meltabombs unwieldy too?

i rarely see MEQs of any sort take power fists. Then again the ones i play against arent assaulty at all, and their characters save for their HQs are tarpitting ratfinks that tick off my Nobz every dang time. Yes he would then take my nob out with a single wound with it, but 25pts to 100% guarantee a deny of my 25pts instead of just getting lucky, which tends to happen anyway? Not worth it.

Melta bomb deals with any vehicle, and i thought it worked against MC too since every rule that i know that has a bonus to vehicles has a bonus to MC too. With the exception of Squig Bombs, which is lame >.< should be primarily vehicles but otherwise aims at any enemy.

Canadian 5th wrote:Power fists give you a better chance against things like Monstrous creatures and that extra attack can be nice when you get to attack a tank with a rear armor or 10 or even 11. The meltabomb is best used against walkers that get you in combat and anything AV13 and higher.

Ah, I can see the extra attacks vs light vehicles and MCs being useful. So, I guess it's up to local meta. Vs Tyranids/daemons and rhino/razorback/deldar/necron lists, bring fists. Vs guard and land raiders, save the points and bring bring melta bombs? Or is it worth it to just bring both?

minigun762 wrote:Aren't meltabombs unwieldy too?

They are, but they don't use up a weapon slot and you won't be using them in challenges. Taking melta bombs + a power sword/lightning claws instead of power fists means you can strike at initiative in challenges and still take down tanks in melee.

Overall, Power Weapon/Meltabomb is a more well effective combination. That said, Power Fists still give you the chance to instant death other T4 units and pile more potential wounds or attacks on an MC or tank.

For what it's worth, I find myself taking just the MB many times with my CSMs.

I don't understand this dichotomy you've put forward. The power fist isn't the only option available aside from melta bombs. There's the 3 types of power weapon too, which have distinct advantages over both the fist and bomb.

The meltabomb can't be used on anything that isn't an MC or vehicle. So you miss out on potentially ID, AP2 goodness, for instance against Termies, MANz and the like.

Sure, I'd still rarely take one on a lowly Sergeant, but they have their place.

 minigun762 wrote:
Aren't meltabombs unwieldy too?

Yes they are. It gets overlooked a lot.

6th Edition challenge rules kinda killed the powerfist sergeant. I ran them almost religiously during 5th ed. With challenges, most of the things you would have taken the fist to kill can challenge you, go first and ignore your armor (Dreadknight, Hive Tyrant, Tervigon (same I but it has 6 wounds to your 1), SM captain w/ relic blades, ect). To make matters worse, even vs other tactical squads w/o the weapon you can still get challenged by the enemy sergeant and possibly killed before you swing (chance is around 1/12 per attack). Meltabombs have some same problems w/ character MC's.

That said there are certain places I still use powerfists. I use them on biker sergeants. I find that the combination of increased durability from the bike (which makes them likely to survive a challenge with a chump sergeant) and the mobility (which allows me to bring the fist into play vs vehicles w/ back AV10, and more or less choose my fights) makes for an ok use of the points. Another place I use them is in any squad with a melee oriented character. I can usually have the character accept the challenge and allow the powerfist sergeant to do work on the enemy squad.

Rihgu wrote:
I was just looking at the Space Marine codex and noticed that most models that can take powerfists have to pay 25pts for a weapon that puts them at S8, I1 (thus making them vulnerable to challenges), compared to the 5pt melta bombs, which are 8+2d6 vs vehicles (S8 vs MCs. It's effectively a 5pt chainfist!) and don't force you to I1 for challenges.

The only downside to the melta bombs I can see is only ever getting 1 attack, but surely the pros outweigh the cons?

Am I overstating the value of striking at initiative in combat, or are melta bombs the superior choice this edition?

A lot of characters have 2-4 attacks. So having the power fist means you get 100%-300% more damage than meltabombs against Tanks and MCs.
Meltabombs cannot be used against ICs, termiantors, or artificer armor. A power fist can cut through 2+ saves and ID / prevent FNP a lot of nasty multiwounded models.

Meltabombs are good vs vehicles, but against a MC or walker you arent even that likely to hit.

A power fist and a power fist alone is good. If you are taking a power weapon of some kind, then melta bombs are good to have.

I take a powerfist in any squad were and IC joins, giving me more options for challenges and such. Unless you're swinging at a landraider or monolith, the power fist is always better.

Power fists are much, much better than meltabombs (well, except against land raiders...), which is why they cost a lot more.

Power fists can squish all kinds of annoying stuff and strike MCs more than once. As Ailaros said, that's why they are more expensive.

Biggest risk I see to using a power fist is if your forced into challenges like CSM squad leaders are. Assuming the other squad leader is decked out to win challenges, they're going to be swinging before you with an AP3 weapon giving them a good chance of killing you off before you swing.

Challenges are the reason a lot of ork players arent taking Klaws anymore, which is the same thing.

However orks can sometimes get out of the challenge thing because of the number of boyz blocking the klaw nob from getting in close enough to be challenged anyway. I doubt unless someone charged you and your 5man marine ball was in a line with the fist in the back this would ever happen for you.

However the idea of putting one in a group you have an IC is a good idea. All of the MEQ hqs that i know of are at least decent in melee and can accept most challenges allowing the fist sergeant to swing happily (unless its an MC of course, in which case its only the challenge going on)

Pop a power fist on a nurgle biker champion and don't worry about challenges!

 Thaylen wrote:
6th Edition challenge rules kinda killed the powerfist sergeant. I ran them almost religiously during 5th ed. With challenges, most of the things you would have taken the fist to kill can challenge you, go first and ignore your armor (Dreadknight, Hive Tyrant, Tervigon (same I but it has 6 wounds to your 1), SM captain w/ relic blades, ect). To make matters worse, even vs other tactical squads w/o the weapon you can still get challenged by the enemy sergeant and possibly killed before you swing (chance is around 1/12 per attack). Meltabombs have some same problems w/ character MC's.

That said there are certain places I still use powerfists. I use them on biker sergeants. I find that the combination of increased durability from the bike (which makes them likely to survive a challenge with a chump sergeant) and the mobility (which allows me to bring the fist into play vs vehicles w/ back AV10, and more or less choose my fights) makes for an ok use of the points. Another place I use them is in any squad with a melee oriented character. I can usually have the character accept the challenge and allow the powerfist sergeant to do work on the enemy squad.

Hey, thanks for the tip on bikes usage, as relates to power fists.. I have never used them but am thinking of getting them for my BAs. That said, perhaps I should simply buy the new box set and use Dark Angels as an Allied contingent? That would also allow me to take advantage of the improved first-round shooting of DA terminators.

What do you think? Battle brethren--a useful combo?

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:


Hey, thanks for the tip on bikes usage, as relates to power fists.. I have never used them but am thinking of getting them for my BAs. That said, perhaps I should simply buy the new box set and use Dark Angels as an Allied contingent? That would also allow me to take advantage of the improved first-round shooting of DA terminators.

What do you think? Battle brethren--a useful combo?

Jump packs have a few issues when compared to bikes (our Blood Angels brethren have suffered greatly in this edition). First they aren't quite as mobile as bikes. They can either get a 12" move or an ignores difficult terrain assault, not both as bikes can. Additionally they lack the +1 T that the bikes have which limits their survivability. As an advantage though they can leap over intervening terrain/models.

The DA Bike/Termy combo has always been a powerful one, but keep in mind the HQ's that unlock termies/bikes as troops in DA only work if they are your primary detachment. This limits their use as allies.

When running vanilla space marines with Tacticals in rhinos/drop pods (I don't often as I love my bikes too much), my preferred loadout is to run sergeant with a combi-weapon (matching the squad's special weapon) and meltabombs. The lack of survivability has sorta killed weapons on sergeants for me.

A tactic that i have seen used by a buddy of mine is to equip his BA jump sergeant with a Powerfist/Storm Shield combo. This may not be points efficient, but it was certainly annoying to deal with from the other side of the table. Got my vulkan model with him a few times due to some lucky 3++ rolls.

 Thaylen wrote:

A tactic that i have seen used by a buddy of mine is to equip his BA jump sergeant with a Powerfist/Storm Shield combo. This may not be points efficient, but it was certainly annoying to deal with from the other side of the table.

This is a horrible waste of points in my opinion. Since the shooting player decides which weapons you take saves against first, a round of bolters or lasguns can kill off the SS wielding guy, allowing the special weapons to wreck the squad. If he's hiding behind other squad members, then it'll be easy to kill off his squad then deny the challenge.
In assault it might be ok, but you have to get over all the issues with shooting first.

I prefer a Powerfist against non-walker vehicles because I get more attacks in and the rear armor of most vehicles is usually weak.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Thaylen wrote:

A tactic that i have seen used by a buddy of mine is to equip his BA jump sergeant with a Powerfist/Storm Shield combo. This may not be points efficient, but it was certainly annoying to deal with from the other side of the table.

This is a horrible waste of points in my opinion. Since the shooting player decides which weapons you take saves against first, a round of bolters or lasguns can kill off the SS wielding guy, allowing the special weapons to wreck the squad. If he's hiding behind other squad members, then it'll be easy to kill off his squad then deny the challenge.
In assault it might be ok, but you have to get over all the issues with shooting first.

One of the BA HQs can give a sergeant an extra wound. Making this tactic a somewhat viable.

If you're doing that, you're taking one hell of a shoddy HQ to do it.

The DA Bike/Termy combo has always been a powerful one, but keep in mind the HQ's that unlock termies/bikes as troops in DA only work if they are your primary detachment. This limits their use as allies.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:


Hey, thanks to you all for the feedback! I have been participating in a couple of lengthy BA posts too, but I appreciate the help. Going back to your "limited use" comment, in an allied contingent (I've not used one yet), I get a mandatory HQ & troops, then up to one each of the Elite, Fast, Heavy category, right? So, conceivably, I could take some Dark Angels TAC or whatever, and then still run a mini ravenwing+deathwing to deep strike in right? I have no idea how much that would cost, but with a Librarian HQ, it could conceivably help my BA too.

Thoughts?

Most of the point in taking DA deathwing or ravenwing is that they are also scoring. If you aren't getting the scoring bit, then vanilla marines hammernators are way cheaper. DA librarians don't offer much that BA doesn't have (one of the few saving graces of BA is their librarian's access to divination). You major problem is that BA and DA don't offer anything that the other army can't already mimic within its own codex. When you ally you need a second (and prolly unneeded) HQ and another troop. An HQ and troops will run you 200pts or more. If you are going to ally use the alliance to cover the holes in your codex rather than taking something you can already do.

Yeah, good call. It just sucks, though, in terms of cost. That $50 price tag for a bunch of awesome-looking DA models and some variation really is appealing as opposed to spending like $200 to buy some IG or something. I totally hear what you are saying about the "filling holes" though--I think a Vendetta and Vanquisher along with a blob of IG troops with a Commissar could actually bulk out my army, give me some more Flyer presence, and improve my tank-hunting ability (I play against a lot of IG, DE, and Eldar).

I guess I was just looking for a good excuse to pick up a second Space Marine chapter...

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
Yeah, good call. It just sucks, though, in terms of cost. That $50 price tag for a bunch of awesome-looking DA models and some variation really is appealing as opposed to spending like $200 to buy some IG or something. I totally hear what you are saying about the "filling holes" though--I think a Vendetta and Vanquisher along with a blob of IG troops with a Commissar could actually bulk out my army, give me some more Flyer presence, and improve my tank-hunting ability (I play against a lot of IG, DE, and Eldar).

I guess I was just looking for a good excuse to pick up a second Space Marine chapter...

I'm gonna let you in on the secret to marine armies...

You can play most of the power armor armies with the same models. I currently play a combination of Vanilla Marines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angles using pretty much the same models, and I could probably play limited sections of the BA and BT codices if I felt the need to as well. About the only one I don't play is Grey Knights because they use really weird equipment that I can't really WYSIWYG.

Also don't take everything I say as gospel. If you wanna mix BA and DA, go ahead, you may enjoy it. I'm just one of them weirdos that plays for the tactical challenges.

Chaos are pretty much the only one that have drastic model differences. Wolves main difference is, oddly enough, the wolves they ride and the cloaks (which you can magnetize on anyway)

Thats why i find it silly/stupid that theres so many seperate "races" for MEQs. With the exception of CSM, theyre all the same bloody thing just different units to pick from (and in some cases, same units to choose from)
GK are probably the furthest from normal SM without being CSM and thats only because of the Dreadknight and their army has a ton of Terminator based units......so...they could still be a subcategory in 1 codex.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Chaos are pretty much the only one that have drastic model differences. Wolves main difference is, oddly enough, the wolves they ride and the cloaks (which you can magnetize on anyway)

Thats why i find it silly/stupid that theres so many seperate "races" for MEQs. With the exception of CSM, theyre all the same bloody thing just different units to pick from (and in some cases, same units to choose from)
GK are probably the furthest from normal SM without being CSM and thats only because of the Dreadknight and their army has a ton of Terminator based units......so...they could still be a subcategory in 1 codex.

The space wolves "pelts" do nothing ruleswise so there really is no need to model them. GK are wierd because of their force weapons (most builds I saw in 5th ed focused on halberds and psycannons, and storm bolters, equipment I just don't have my my models).

Good points all. I am just also attracted to how some models look, and the fluff behind them. Dark Angels' quest for vengeance, Blood Angels' flaw--these things are just more appealing to me than the Ultramarines' rules for war. I actually used to have my own chapter when I first started playing about 8 years ago, back when you could give your chapter "Traits" that made them less "Vanilla." I actually think that really hurt "Vanilla" marines lists, and is a disincentive to be creative and develop your own back story and ability to factor role-playing into your play.