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 Soladrin wrote:
Had quite a long talk with my friend at EA yesterday.

He said, while his department (tech support and customer data analysis) was almost completely a boys club, it was run by a lesbian, which gave me chuckle.

Anyway, I asked a bit about their testing crew, apparently, their testing department is in Madrid and 90%+ is male. Not a big suprise there I guess.

What was amusing though, he told me about the difference between male and female accounts. Accounts owned by female, on avarage, are worth almost 4 times as much as the male avarage. Women are much bigger spenders then men on EA games with the avarage for women being over a 1000 dollars per account. Though most of it was attributed to sims games.

But considering that women seem to be bigger spenders when it comes to gaming it's odd that they still get so little love in the industry.

We can really blame most of that on the sims. It's a real cash cow franchise. I have easily spent 5 times as much on the sims then I have on any other EA game. It just has so many games and expansions, and spin offs. I wonder why no one else has put out a virtual doll house to compete with the sims. One could argue that the sims is a very good reason for game companies to invest more in women.

It's very easy for people to say "oh they just play Sims a lot" and then completely and utterly ignore the large number of women who play far more than just Sims.

Dismissing women is a long-beloved pastime of people seeking excuses for the status quo.

But you can't dismiss the money. Women have money, women like games, you make games. It should be an easy 1+1= profit.

Though we could be optimistic about this because things are shifting. They have added female avatars to most FPS MP and we are getting a more female characters. Even if they don't always make it on the box art.

I wonder if the focus test that picked the bioshock box art was all male?

nomotog wrote:
They have added female avatars to most FPS MP

I don't know about that. Certainly not AAA shooters. Maybe for FPS-MMOs and free to play FPS games this is accurate, but most of the time if there is a woman in a shooter she's "The Girl", IE the token female, and usually in a class-based shooter she's the stealthy one, or the medic.

 Melissia wrote:

nomotog wrote:
They have added female avatars to most FPS MP

I don't know about that. Certainly not AAA shooters. Maybe for FPS-MMOs and free to play FPS games this is accurate, but most of the time if there is a woman in a shooter she's "The Girl", IE the token female, and usually in a class-based shooter she's the stealthy one, or the medic.

Yeah, I never understood why a game like, for instance Battlefield 3 didn't simply have an option that says male/female. For a developer that big making those character models would've been a breeze, hell, the people who made the character models for them we're probably long finished before the game was done anyway. You could probably apply the same logic as is used for legitimate day 1 DLC, stuff the artists made in between finalization and release.

And Melissia, just out of curiosity, do you see the whole box art thing as a big issue? It's hard for me to see it as an issue since I completely disregard box art when evaluating the possible purchase of a game.

I see it as more an extension of the issue already being discussed, of women being marginalized even in their own games.

 Melissia wrote:

nomotog wrote:
They have added female avatars to most FPS MP

I don't know about that. Certainly not AAA shooters. Maybe for FPS-MMOs and free to play FPS games this is accurate, but most of the time if there is a woman in a shooter she's "The Girl", IE the token female, and usually in a class-based shooter she's the stealthy one, or the medic.

I know halo has a female option from reach. I think gears of war added one in 3. OK I guess it's not most, but it's on the rise. If we can get women in COD I think that would clinch it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
I see it as more an extension of the issue already being discussed, of women being marginalized even in their own games.

Poor chell never even made it into the TV ad.

Soladrin wrote:Yeah, I never understood why a game like, for instance Battlefield 3 didn't simply have an option that says male/female.

I have a feeling it may in part due to a certain fear from segments of the playerbase who are all "roar women shouldn't be in the military this is BS", regardless of current developments. Even in Mass Effect, I've seen people on the BSN forums argueing that Femshep "doesn't make any sense".

That said, you got to play a female jet pilot in the BF3 campaign, and the one from BF4 will apparently have a female chopper pilot NPC. Baby steps, but better than nothing I guess.

What's more worrysome is stuff like this. Damn, the game was good, but the excuses made in this video are so transparently silly.

That's not a step at all. Female pilots are as old as Aliens.

I know, but it's a step for computer games. They do seem to lag behind a couple years regarding such things. Hell, even as far as ethnicity is concerned .. compare the number of movies with a black dude to the number of video games where you play one. GTA III felt pretty novel just for that. The average game protagonist is still the brown-haired white dude in his mid 30's, usually with a three-day beard. If it wasn't for the clothing, you might get the idea that it's the same character we get to see in half the shooters out there. Slightly exaggerated, but you get the idea.

Also, I thought we'd be talking about the Battlefield series in particular.

 Lynata wrote:
I know, but it's a step for computer games. They do seem to lag behind a couple years regarding such things.

Starcraft.

So I guess not, eh?

A small amount of exceptions does not invalidate a trend.

I'm not pulling DOA as "proof" for how all computer games are objectifying the female body either.

 Lynata wrote:
I know, but it's a step for computer games. They do seem to lag behind a couple years regarding such things. Hell, even as far as ethnicity is concerned .. compare the number of movies with a black dude to the number of video games where you play one. GTA III felt pretty novel just for that. The average game protagonist is still the brown-haired white dude in his mid 30's, usually with a three-day beard. If it wasn't for the clothing, you might get the idea that it's the same character we get to see in half the shooters out there. Slightly exaggerated, but you get the idea.

Also, I thought we'd be talking about the Battlefield series in particular.

Nah, it really isn't a step if you ask me, this is to tiny to be considered even that if you ask me.

And why would you ink that?

In the case of Deus Ex: it's different than e.g. in Battlefield where you got no story and play a random character. Deus Ex was a story with a main, male, protagonist because the story's writer(s) decided their main character to be male. That's it.

I've seen this video being pulled in another forum too and it was hilarious...there was one guy who was *raging* all over the ending of ME and when people brought up that Bioware can put in the ending they want to because it's their story and "artistic vision", he raged again. On the other hand, in regards to the video, the same guy (or girl, idk, weird pony names don't make up for easy gender identification) replied to someone saying that it's the writer's idea to have a male protagonist. Was fun as long as it lasted.

Anyway: any developer is free to choose the protagonist's gender and some even removed genders from games entirely (e.g. Final Fantasy). In the case of Battlefield or rather action games, it's just that a lot more men play those games than women do. Hell, even in ME3, 83% (iirc) of the players chose Shepherd and not Femshep despite having the choice...and they had a fully voiced second character (which did, imo, a better job...).

 Melissia wrote:
It's very easy for people to say "oh they just play Sims a lot" and then completely and utterly ignore the large number of women who play far more than just Sims.

Dismissing women is a long-beloved pastime of people seeking excuses for the status quo.

I don't think that's what we're getting at. If women are spending a vast amount more than men "women play more games" isn't a very good answer. The Sims has like a bajillion expansions and it is a popular franchise with women (not that it isn't popular with men mind you) and since women make a smaller consumer base the ones who spend vast amounts exert a larger influence in the statistics (for example I've probably spent $2000+ on Steam, but there are a huge number more men on it and they probably vary more in spending practices keeping my huge spending from showing in statistics as much). I'm sure they play plenty of other games that aren't the Sims, but the Sims can go a long way in explaining why the average spending is so much higher. I think there's a word for it in statistics cause it happens in other areas of life too but its been a few years since that statistics class XD

The problem that remains is, with the industry as it is women pretty just face a barrier of even thinking about getting into certain games. Publishers and developers(to a lesser degree) are directly responsible for this barrier by refusing to cater to both genders in a proper way.

It's just a vicious circle in the end. Publishers see less money coming from females, publishers cater more to men, less women get into video games, less moeny comes from females etc. etc.

As for the gaming community, it's probably all the boys that don't want to feel ashamed for losing to a girl. (which in itself is a dumb notion.)

Sigvatr wrote:In the case of Deus Ex: it's different than e.g. in Battlefield where you got no story and play a random character. Deus Ex was a story with a main, male, protagonist because the story's writer(s) decided their main character to be male. That's it.

What exactly was supposed to be so important that he absolutely had to be male, though? The "Damsel in Distress" plot as a motivator? This can very easily be solved by either making the Doc into a man, by leaving her a female but make her a relative, or (*gasp*) by making Jensen a lesbian. Zero effects on the story and the character's overall appearance.

Gender is overrated. It is not a defining trait of a character - or at least it shouldn't be (-> stereotypes).

Sigvatr wrote:Hell, even in ME3, 83% (iirc) of the players chose Shepherd and not Femshep despite having the choice...and they had a fully voiced second character (which did, imo, a better job...).

Whilst I don't doubt that the majority of gamers are male (especially since marketing for the series always favoured men, even in ME3), I do find the ratio provided should be investigated closer rather than just taking it at face value. How many of those 82% did not choose at all but simply pressed "start" because they don't give a gak about their character's gender and just want to play the game? Would the result have been different if players were forced to choose instead of having the option to customise?

 Lynata wrote:

Hell, even in ME3, 83% (iirc) of the players chose Shepherd and not Femshep despite having the choice...and they had a fully voiced second character (which did, imo, a better job...).

Whilst I don't doubt that the majority of gamers are male (especially since marketing for the series always favoured men, even in ME3), I do find the ratio provided should be investigated closer rather than just taking it at face value. How many of those 82% did not choose at all but simply pressed "start" because they don't give a gak about their character's gender and just want to play the game? Would the result have been different if players were forced to choose instead of having the option to customise?

And if I remember correctly the wording of the question in the poll left it ambiguous as to whether or not people played both. Wasn't it "Do you play ManShep" or "Do you play FemShep?" I don't remember there being a "I play both" option.

 Lynata wrote:
What exactly was supposed to be so important that he absolutely had to be male, though? The "Damsel in Distress" plot as a motivator? This can very easily be solved by either making the Doc into a man, by leaving her a female but make her a relative, or (*gasp*) by making Jensen a lesbian. Zero effects on the story and the character's overall appearance.

That wasn't my point. I wasn't saying that the protagonist could not have been female. I was saying that if the author decided it to be male, there is no reason to say "GIEF FEMALE". It's his vision of the story and nobody has the right to criticize him for that. It's a different thing with games like e.g. Dragon Age where the story is not as focused on a certain character i.e. you can "forge" your character and, of course, having both genders has been an option for ages now in RPGS (and rightfully so). The Witcher is another example.

Regarding the "damsel in mistress" thing: it doesn't work exactly vice versa. Men are biologically "programmed" to protect women, mostly to impress the female and get her back in his cave for showing her his mighty club. Women, on average, need a deeper motivation. Men can be simply motivated by "Look, a woman in need!".

Gender is overrated. It is not a defining trait of a character - or at least it shouldn't be (-> stereotypes).

Sigvatr wrote: Would the result have been different if players were forced to choose instead of having the option to customise?

Of course. GIve people a reason to bitch about and they're gonna bitch about it.

Hm, I guess I just can't see it the way you do. Gender or appearance has as little effect on the core elements of the story as the choice of weapons, how exactly you resolve a mission, or what answers you opt for when talking to NPCs ... all of which was possible in that game. I suppose you could say it's not about criticising the story itself (which, as mentioned before, has nothing to do with gender), but criticising that the author was only able to envision it with a male hero.

Also, the player character of a game like DE:HR is by default not an average person, hence there is no need to cling to the stereotypes I mentioned.

On a sidenote, I'd further argue that the behavior you described isn't biological but social programming - which is rapidly changing together with society, one might add. And in the case of Deus Ex, you'd have an established relationship, with the player character being an augmented security chief with a history in the police. Do you honestly think that with all these factors, if Jensen were a girl, she'd stay at home?

 LordofHats wrote:
I don't think that's what we're getting at.

You did a gakky job of expressing yourself then, because that's EXACTLY how you came across.

 Melissia wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I don't think that's what we're getting at.

You did a gakky job of expressing yourself then, because that's EXACTLY how you came across.

I've never really credited myself with being concise so yeah

It's actually a common problem with communications between various social groups, as shown here:
http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36214913229/the-female-perspective-in-game-development

Game developers need more perspective than "middle class white guy".

 Lynata wrote:

On a sidenote, I'd further argue that the behavior you described isn't biological but social programming - which is rapidly changing together with society, one might add. And in the case of Deus Ex, you'd have an established relationship, with the player character being an augmented security chief with a history in the police. Do you honestly think that with all these factors, if Jensen were a girl, she'd stay at home?

No, it's genetical. Survival instinct, men wants to have sex to reproduce, wants to make sure his kin survives, impress woman, have sex. It's been reinforced by society, that's a valid and fitting remark e.g. "Women and children first!", men being encouraged to take the first step towards relationships etc. But in the end, it comes down to biology. Don't bring that up with feminists though, stuff like that keeps them on their toes. Stuff like women being prone to be submissive etc. In the end, we still have a very similar "core" as our ancestors, we just became more intelligent and thus most of us are able to rationally look at things and control their behavior whereas others...well, decided to rely on their "intuition" and feelings alone. But alas, you can't force people to use what they're given

Regarding the Deus Ex thing: I did not want to say that Deus Ex could not have been with a female lead. My point is that the author decided the protagonist to be male and some people saying "OH LOL SEXIST AGAIN" is unjustified. It's his vision of the character. In games like ME, however, that's different as it's your character you develop e.g. choose between Paragon and Renegade thus it makes sense to have a very customizable character in order to make identification easier. Humans identify the most with characters that are similar to them and their ideas. That's the reason why most protagonists are white men. It's the biggest, by far, demographic thus you cater to them as a company. Cue in the cover discussion, hits the same spot.

If people want to change things, they have to realize that "OMG THAT'S SO SEXIST / RACIST I AM SO ANGRY IMMA GO POST ANGRY POSTS ON MY BLOG ON ZE INTERWEBZ". Become vocal. Gather a huge group of people and found an organziation etc. Nobody gives a flying saucer about a random person being silly mad about something on the internet. But a lot of mad persons become an angry mob. And nobody likes those.

Just take that Damsel in Mistress woman (sry, forgot her name) - she became vocal by marketing her ideas e.g. via kickstarter, the media etc. Imagine that with a bigger group of people and there we go.

But until that happens, all that companies will do is nod and smile.

Stop spazzing out, no one is shouting angrily at the top of their lungs here. We're discussing this rationally, perhaps you could join us in proper discussion on the issue, instead of attempting to ignorantly criticize a movement you know essentially nothing about and ranting on and on about a random tangent.

 Melissia wrote:
Stop spazzing out, no one is shouting angrily at the top of their lungs here. We're discussing this rationally, perhaps you could join us in proper discussion on the issue, instead of attempting to ignorantly criticize a movement you know essentially nothing about and ranting on and on about a random tangent.

I wasn't talking about the overall feminist movement in general, I referred to the usual uproar that rises and, pretty soon, disappears again after certain events. Hot Coffee. "OMG SO BAD OUR CHILDREN", soon after, never heard of again. That columbine game. Black zombies in RE5...or 6. etc. etc. etc.

If you're not comfortable (and you obviouly do not seem to be) with reflecting your position / thinking rationally, just ignore me and my posts. Thanks.

Sigvatr wrote:No, it's genetical. Survival instinct, men wants to have sex to reproduce, wants to make sure his kin survives, impress woman, have sex.

You say that as if women would not have an urge to reproduce or an instinct to survive. Just like that urge - be it in men or women - need not be a positive trait. Actually, I'd even argue that it has led to abuse, oppression and infidelity far more often than it led to some individual suddenly turning into a valiant hero to "save the day and get the girl". Also, somehow your explanation makes it sound as if men and women are two different species. They're not - they are rather remarkably similar, so much so that "something in between" can happen naturally. If there are differences in behaviour, they are the sole product of hormone balance levels which differ from individual to individual. For example, aggressiveness or the willingness to take a risk are linked to testosterone - and as previously pointed out, video game protagonists are not "John Q Public", so there is no reason to assume that it couldn't be someone with the appropriate characteristics (for a game example, see Femshep).

Funny thing, by the way: romantic relationships result in a decline of testosterone levels in the average male, whereas they rise in the average female. Meaning, the average male becomes less aggressive and less likely to take a risk, whereas it's the other way around for the average woman.

Sigvatr wrote:My point is that the author decided the protagonist to be male and some people saying "OH LOL SEXIST AGAIN" is unjustified. It's his vision of the character. In games like ME, however, that's different as it's your character you develop e.g. choose between Paragon and Renegade thus it makes sense to have a very customizable character in order to make identification easier.

That's the thing. You choose between Paragon and Renegade in Deus Ex as well, so it is your character anyways. You decide what Adam Jensen thinks, how he talks to people, and whether he's more of a sneaker or a shooter - and, if the latter, whether he prefers non-lethal stunners or shoots to kill.

Besides, your point isn't how it was explained in the video, anyways. They flat out went and said they couldn't have done that kind of story with a girl. This has nothing to do with preferences of a vision, but rather with a lack of vision and defaulting to gender stereotypes. And as much as I love that game and its atmosphere, this is something that will continue to haunt it (to me anyways).

 Lynata wrote:
You say that as if women would not have an urge to reproduce or an instinct to survive. Just like that urge - be it in men or women - need not be a positive trait. Actually, I'd even argue that it has led to abuse, oppression and infidelity far more often than it led to some individual suddenly turning into a valiant hero to "save the day and get the girl". Also, somehow your explanation makes it sound as if men and women are two different species. They're not - they are rather remarkably similar, so much so that "something in between" can happen naturally. If there are differences in behaviour, they are the sole product of hormone balance levels which differ from individual to individual. For example, aggressiveness or the willingness to take a risk are linked to testosterone - and as previously pointed out, video game protagonists are not "John Q Public", so there is no reason to assume that it couldn't be someone with the appropriate characteristics (for a game example, see Femshep).

Oh, certainly, not going to argue that men and women are largely similiar, as I stated, I was talking of men / women "on average". It's just that people often assume they are the same whereas there are considerable differences between the genders. It's a trait, but what people make of it is their own doing. A trait can't be good or bad, it's about what you make of it. I don't go around [forcefully penetrating] women because I am biologically programmed to reproduce and I won't just pee my pants because I need to - you control yourself.

Funny thing, by the way: romantic relationships result in a decline of testosterone levels in the average male, whereas they rise in the average female. Meaning, the average male becomes less aggressive and less likely to take a risk, whereas it's the other way around for the average woman.

Seems pretty logical to me tbh You got a family to protect now plus you got the woman in your cave already, no need to further impress her.

Sigvatr wrote:That's the thing. You choose between Paragon and Renegade in Deus Ex as well, so it is your character anyways. You decide what Adam Jensen thinks, how he talks to people, and whether he's more of a sneaker or a shooter - and, if the latter, whether he prefers non-lethal stunners or shoots to kill.

It's a very different scale. Deus Ex and e.g. ME are vastly different in regards of you determining your character's path. Let's stick to the story, else you could also say that in River Raid, you decide whether your plane decides to fight the enemy planes or dodges them.

Besides, your point isn't how it was explained in the video, anyways. They flat out went and said they couldn't have done that kind of story with a girl. This has nothing to do with preferences of a vision, but rather with a lack of vision and defaulting to gender stereotypes. And as much as I love that game and its atmosphere, this is something that will continue to haunt it (to me anyways).

No, it's their vision. They say they couldn't have done it with a woman (no pun intended), they couldn't. It's simple as that. Could someone else have re-written the game to feature a female protagonist? Sure. I could have re-written the ending of ME 3 as well despite Bioware claiming it's "how it had to end". It's *their* game and *they* decide what happens where, when and why. Not gonna doubt that it would have been possible to feature a woman, but I'd have expected her daughter being the damsel in distress then instead of her man.

There is a very distinct difference between "we should add something to games because games are awesome and we want to make them better" and "we should take something away from games because games are evil and we want protect people from them". Refusing to acknowledge the difference does not make it cease to exist, no matter how vehemently you do it.

Regardless, I would actually say that developers and producers DO pay attention to the various issues raised by activists. Perhaps not enough of it, but it's enough that we have industry veterans now speaking out about it on a regular basis. The industry has taken notice to some extent. So it is, in fact, working. Pressure just needs to be kept up.. and... that's what's happening.

Which is again why I say you have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

 Melissia wrote:


Regardless, I would actually say that developers and producers DO pay attention to the various issues raised by activists. Perhaps not enough of it, but it's enough that we have industry veterans now speaking out about it on a regular basis. The industry has taken notice to some extent. So it is, in fact, working. Pressure just needs to be kept up.. and... that's what's happening.

Oh, it does?

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%22tropes%20vs.%20women%22

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Global%20Warming&cmpt=q

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=financial%20crisis&cmpt=q

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=felix%20baumgartner&cmpt=q

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=financial%20cliff&cmpt=q

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=sexism&cmpt=q

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=death%20sentence&cmpt=q

Welcome to reality, Melissia. Popular topics are popular for a while, people then lose interest more and more until it becomes a niche topic again.

Which is again why I say you have no clue what the goddamned fething hell you're talking about.

Classy.