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 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...

Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?

Hmmm, really the problem is, that with the size, market share, and infrastructure that GW has we should be seeing them expand each year, but they simply are not doing that.

Instead of working the room they are a wall-flower ever shrinking into the darkest corner of the room.

They have no mass market game that introduces their IP to the people looking for a tabletop game. No Space Hulk, no Hero Quest. These were in non-gaming department stores years ago, albeit partly due to an ill-advised partnership with MB (see Hero Quest, Battlemasters, Space Crusade) and they do no sort of advertising campaigns for any products. They should have a print ad for each of their core products and a quarterly add for new releases. WotC does this and it increases brand awareness.

But Tom Kirby has stated that they do not want the masses to buy their products.

They continue to throw away money on retail locations.

Tom Kirby wants another 800 stores in the US.

Anniversary milestones for their products have passed.

There were no special events, promotions, or media interactions.

They even turned down the BBC for an interview.

The list is as long as I am tall of what sheer idiocy comes out of Nottingham.

 azreal13 wrote:
Ex 40k playing Warmachine players are worse than ex smokers/drinkers/crack addicts combined in my experience.

I'm not sure if it's a desperate need to validate their choice, or just a moderate lack of class, but even amongst my friends who have made the leap they can't help but try and persuade me that 'their' game is 'better'.

My response is always the same, I have no issue with the gameplay, and I will look at starting a faction once PP start making minis that I don't consider fugly.

It's no surprise that some cant help but jump on the beat GW bandwagon, regardless of how justified it may or may not be.

It is more like a religious experience... after years of fumbling around in the dark you suddenly see the light.. But I have picked up malifaux recently also and it is also really Fun to play.. The best thing about leaving GW has been that I am now willing to try alot of other games, and that keeps things fresh and fun...


Hope you can read this Azreal ho buddy ho pal.. but I guess you might still have me perma blocked


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xraytango wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...

Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?

Hmmm, really the problem is, that with the size, market share, and infrastructure that GW has we should be seeing them expand each year, but they simply are not doing that.

Instead of working the room they are a wall-flower ever shrinking into the darkest corner of the room.

They have no mass market game that introduces their IP to the people looking for a tabletop game. No Space Hulk, no Hero Quest. These were in non-gaming department stores years ago, albeit partly due to an ill-advised partnership with MB (see Hero Quest, Battlemasters, Space Crusade) and they do no sort of advertising campaigns for any products. They should have a print ad for each of their core products and a quarterly add for new releases. WotC does this and it increases brand awareness.

But Tom Kirby has stated that they do not want the masses to buy their products.

They continue to throw away money on retail locations.

Tom Kirby wants another 800 stores in the US.

Anniversary milestones for their products have passed.

There were no special events, promotions, or media interactions.

They even turned down the BBC for an interview.

The list is as long as I am tall of what sheer idiocy comes out of Nottingham.

Facts are that the times have slipped by the leadership of GW... I cant keep up with the kidds and im alot younger then Kirby and his lackeys.. They are Old and it is showing.. Also as I pointed out before 2013 cant be compared with the begining of the 90s.. for those of us that were there, the World was alot diffrent.. No Internet, no cell-phones... and there wasent much DOOM and GLOOM in the hobby.. we were all having to much fun playing "NEW and FUN games".. Atari, amiga grafics and concole games on the old Nintendo and Sega units were still light-years behind IRL Grafics hehe.. It was a totaly diffrent world...

I remember when GW said they would start shifting products over to plastics and pass the savings on to us.

That was in a White Dwarf somewhere around 1990 or 91.

So why does a ten man box cost nearly $40 US when the mold has been paid for times over since it was made. Economy of scale says I shouldn't be paying more than $15 or $20 for it, and that's being generous!

Not turning this into a pricing thread!

GW has many lies to account for.

 Kingsley wrote:
Quote from Usenet circa 1992:

"BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?"

3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..

Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..

So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...

I'm good with GW. Let the hate flow on the interwebs, no issue in my local game meta. I'm fortunate to have a solid 40k environment here is my area.

I think that there were other Sci-fi games back then, but nothing of any serious note.

The 90's were more still dominated by RPG's than wargames.

Other manufacturers saw what was coming, but had no means to compete with GW. Grenadier had a fantasy battle game as well as a sci-fi game, but they never took off and Grenadier shut down (though they had good minis, I think they just were at the end of their business' life-span).

TSR had Battlesystem for the AD&D line, but due to internal problems and other issues it never did what it could have done.

 Byte wrote:
I'm good with GW. Let the hate flow on the interwebs, no issue in my local game meta. I'm fortunate to have a solid 40k environment here is my area.

I'm not really hating on GW. What I am doing is saying this.. If they dont change they will be gone in a few years time.. And Kingsly said lets get back to this in 2018 and see how things are... I will take him and any of you up on that challenge... I say that if nothing changes GW will be gone or in steep decline by the year 2018...

I'm basing this off some simple facts..

Unless humanity goes into some Retro Renaissance, and people will suddenly abandon the technical wonders that we keep inventing, the regrowth of the hobby will keep on declining year after year.. Back in the day Toy stores were full of many diffrent kinds of toys.. these days they are shell of their former glory, kidds play on the computers and on consols these days.. there is no time for the types of toys we had when I was growing up.... Evolution will take its tole on this hobby as it has done with so many others, over the decades..

There will always be people playing Table top games, but GWs strategi has never been on customer retention...and with that strategi in mind they will not have enough older people advocating their game to their childrean... and the kidds who are 15-18 by the year 2018.. will have grown up in a totaly diffrent world then those of us that were born in the 70s,80s and the 90s... Things have really moved fast... much faster then in any other generation in human history... In the last 20 years we have made huge leaps forward... and we will probably make even faster progression in the comming years...

 Nucflash wrote:

 Byte wrote:
I'm good with GW. Let the hate flow on the interwebs, no issue in my local game meta. I'm fortunate to have a solid 40k environment here is my area.

I'm not really hating on GW. What I am doing is saying this.. If they dont change they will be gone in a few years time.. And Kingsly said lets get back to this in 2018 and see how things are... I will take him and any of you up on that challenge... I say that if nothing changes GW will be gone or in steep decline by the year 2018...

I surely hope they get bought out by then so I can throw money at the new Corporation.

 Nucflash wrote:


3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..

Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..

So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...

Hahaha, you really have no idea what things were like back then. All of usenet is public record.

While I wasn't involved in the Wargaming online community back then in the early 90s, I was all about Alt.Toys.Transformers and remember epic "Unicron vs Deathstar". We had our 14.4 modems and dialed up Free.nets and gophered our way from system to system to read and post to newsgroups. I remember the having to re-dial every 30 minutes and usually wait 20 minutes to get through the busy lines and once on, having to hop 2-3 systems before I could access the old newsgroups and then sit there and read them in a text-only screen. When that was done, I was then dialing in to Prodigy online to download my 6 pictures a day onto floppy disks and then doing TXT based MUD/MUSH for the night. The Internet was alive and well in 1992, as we online communities with discussion groups about every dumb topic possible.

I was just starting out in GW back in 1992, but I seriously doubt there was zero negativity back then. There is always negativity, and newsgroups were full of them. When Portent popped up, there was already epic wars way before that.

nkelsch wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:


3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..

Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..

So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...

Hahaha, you really have no idea what things were like back then. All of usenet is public record.

While I wasn't involved in the Wargaming online community back then in the early 90s, I was all about Alt.Toys.Transformers and remember epic "Unicron vs Deathstar". We had our 14.4 modems and dialed up Free.nets and gophered our way from system to system to read and post to newsgroups. I remember the having to re-dial every 30 minutes and usually wait 20 minutes to get through the busy lines and once on, having to hop 2-3 systems before I could access the old newsgroups and then sit there and read them in a text-only screen. When that was done, I was then dialing in to Prodigy online to download my 6 pictures a day onto floppy disks and then doing TXT based MUD/MUSH for the night. The Internet was alive and well in 1992, as we online communities with discussion groups about every dumb topic possible.

I was just starting out in GW back in 1992, but I seriously doubt there was zero negativity back then. There is always negativity, and newsgroups were full of them. When Portent popped up, there was already epic wars way before that.

Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet conections over here it was the mid 90s... And yes there is always negativity about things.. But You cant compare negativity of the early 90s with what we are seeing today in 2013.. if you have lived a while.. Im guessing you are like me in your mid 30s or even pushing 40 you would undestand this.. but you flame me like a little kidd?? or do you not grasp the diffrence that existed betwen diffrent parts of the world back then?

And kingsley have been using that same quote for a while now... and it is not even that negative to be honest.. it reads more like someone reflecting over that people he knew that were fantatics of the hobby, dont really like the way the GW was moving into a more Futuristic setting... You have to understand that the person making this quote is probably older, around 25-30 would be my guess.. He has grown up on Historical games, so has his friends.. this new setting is alien to them.. that is why he comes of as negative...

I'm also on my way out of the hobby.. I'm way to old to really have time to play Table-top games these days.. Most of my friends are slowly playing less and less that is the natural order of things.. But what people are whining about today is not a new setting or more kiddy friendly models.. It runs much deeper then that these days.. And there is much less Regrowth.. There are alot more things these days that will pull the younger generation away from table-top gaming then what we had in the 1990s... This combination.. Vets quiting(getting old) less new blood coming into the hobby, is the reason I think that in a few years GW will really be struggling to get anyone to play their game... If you dont belive me that is your choise.. I still thinkI will be right in the end.. only time will tell..

 Nucflash wrote:


Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet connections over here it was the mid 90s...

Even BBSs were pretty widespread 1990 and before. Hell, A Kid in my middle school had a dedicated phoneline and modem and ran one out of his house. Every night, the BBS would be down for a few hours to connect to a freenet to exchange emails and download newsgroups. It gave users of the BBS the ability to communicate and read stuff without needing an internet connection. I spent 7th and 8th grade in a wheelchair, and I spent a ton of time online from 1990-1996.

I didn't get involved in the 'online' community for GW until around 1998 when Portent.net popped up, and half the people there were from previous newsgroups and there were long histories even then.

If someone wants to Snopes that quote, I am sure it can be done simply because almost the entirety of the old newsgroups are still around, but don't discount the existance of the online community back then. It was a real thing, even back then.

nkelsch wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:


Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet connections over here it was the mid 90s...

Even BBSs were pretty widespread 1990 and before. Hell, A Kid in my middle school had a dedicated phoneline and modem and ran one out of his house. Every night, the BBS would be down for a few hours to connect to a freenet to exchange emails and download newsgroups. It gave users of the BBS the ability to communicate and read stuff without needing an internet connection. I spent 7th and 8th grade in a wheelchair, and I spent a ton of time online from 1990-1996.

I didn't get involved in the 'online' community for GW until around 1998 when Portent.net popped up, and half the people there were from previous newsgroups and there were long histories even then.

If someone wants to Snopes that quote, I am sure it can be done simply because almost the entirety of the old newsgroups are still around, but don't discount the existance of the online community back then. It was a real thing, even back then.

I did not say there wasent a community back then... I'm saying that the community can't be compared to the internet of 2013.. I'm also saying that the world back then was a very diffrent place to live in. If I look at the kidds today they do not do the same things I did growing up.. this is natural, all generations progress and change with the times. But my point is GWs strategi for selling their product has not changed with the world around them.. They fought long and hard against computer games, they are draging their feat compared to others in the industry... Take a look at Wizzards of the cost, they did not hesitate putting magic on the internet for example.. They are still growing were GW has stagnated.. The conservative thinking of GW will be the end of them that is a fact.... With Kickstarter and the prices on 3d printers going down... they will soon find themselves outrun by the competition...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also belive that Retail(stores that you go to for shoping) will change in the comming years... Back in the day we had many diffrent stores all privatly owned. But these days the big chaines have taken over, It dosen't mather what department store i go to these days.. they all have the same Retail chaines that sell the exact same product... When 3d printers become as common as a printer is today in every home (and yes it will happen, they are really cheap these days and they will only become cheaper).. we will see a drastic change in how retail stores operates... If GW do not want to end up like Kodac and the music industry which both have failed to keep up with the times.. they need to change gear and they need to do it now before it is to late for them...

 Baldsmug wrote:
I hate how GW forces me to buy their stuff, its ridiculous its like i have no choice.

oh wait... that didn't happen.
If you don't like the company or what they do don't buy their stuff and if you are SOOO righteous don't even buy it second hand like i know a lot of you haters like to brag about doing. No one is forcing you to play with these toys. You people are just ridiculous. Get over yourselves. If you want to hate a corporation why not focus on hating one that REALLY deserves it, like Monsanto, Pfizer, or one of those REAL evil corporations who really DO NOT give you a choice.

When prices or whatever have gotten too much for you, there will be many of us here telling you the exact same thing we are telling you now. Quote "those that stay on the longest are generally the most ignorant". i was among the first "whingers". yet the message us "whingers" never changes. in due time i have seen many such as yourself on dakka and other places who complain about someone airing their concerns regardless of validity of topic, yet soon after join the riff raff mob who your so staunch at judging. (don't be too harsh in your judgment. someday we'll welcome yo with open arms, and then you will sing our song)

Note: i predict there will be many such threads/post pertaining this topic as this fine example. with people amazed in either for or against (positive or negative) response and as to "why they drew that conclusion".

 Nucflash wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:


3 years after release and people are saying in 1992 that they do not Improve WH40k, called rouge trader back then... I would cheack my facts on that... First time I started to hear real complaints about GW was after the turn of the century. I know that you were to young to be around back then or you would not have posted such a quote, and I have seen you use the same quote before in other threads Kingsley, the exact same one. Find the person who made it please or back it up with more from the Usenet?? lol... hmm Or I call it bs, because most of the human population dident even have a internet conection back in 1992..

Because you have to undestand that those that even had an internet conection was on dail up modems... There was no Internet community... overall the gaming community was very possitive..

So you should listen to people that were actually alive back then instead of reusing and old quote you have found someplace over and over... There was NO OTHER GAME ON THE MARKET IN 1992(in the sci fi genre).. And there was no wide spread negativity about GW...

Hahaha, you really have no idea what things were like back then. All of usenet is public record.

While I wasn't involved in the Wargaming online community back then in the early 90s, I was all about Alt.Toys.Transformers and remember epic "Unicron vs Deathstar". We had our 14.4 modems and dialed up Free.nets and gophered our way from system to system to read and post to newsgroups. I remember the having to re-dial every 30 minutes and usually wait 20 minutes to get through the busy lines and once on, having to hop 2-3 systems before I could access the old newsgroups and then sit there and read them in a text-only screen. When that was done, I was then dialing in to Prodigy online to download my 6 pictures a day onto floppy disks and then doing TXT based MUD/MUSH for the night. The Internet was alive and well in 1992, as we online communities with discussion groups about every dumb topic possible.

I was just starting out in GW back in 1992, but I seriously doubt there was zero negativity back then. There is always negativity, and newsgroups were full of them. When Portent popped up, there was already epic wars way before that.

Dude I do not live in the states you have to undestand that we were years behind you back then.. As I said it could take over 2 years for a movie to even get over to pond so that we could watch it... Keeping this in mind you have to roll back to how it was in the states in the 1987 to get a an understanding of how thing were in Europe back then... Text based muds never made it big over here for example.. because by the time we all had internet conections over here it was the mid 90s... And yes there is always negativity about things.. But You cant compare negativity of the early 90s with what we are seeing today in 2013.. if you have lived a while.. Im guessing you are like me in your mid 30s or even pushing 40 you would undestand this.. but you flame me like a little kidd?? or do you not grasp the diffrence that existed betwen diffrent parts of the world back then?

And kingsley have been using that same quote for a while now... and it is not even that negative to be honest.. it reads more like someone reflecting over that people he knew that were fantatics of the hobby, dont really like the way the GW was moving into a more Futuristic setting... You have to understand that the person making this quote is probably older, around 25-30 would be my guess.. He has grown up on Historical games, so has his friends.. this new setting is alien to them.. that is why he comes of as negative...

I'm also on my way out of the hobby.. I'm way to old to really have time to play Table-top games these days.. Most of my friends are slowly playing less and less that is the natural order of things.. But what people are whining about today is not a new setting or more kiddy friendly models.. It runs much deeper then that these days.. And there is much less Regrowth.. There are alot more things these days that will pull the younger generation away from table-top gaming then what we had in the 1990s... This combination.. Vets quiting(getting old) less new blood coming into the hobby, is the reason I think that in a few years GW will really be struggling to get anyone to play their game... If you dont belive me that is your choise.. I still thinkI will be right in the end.. only time will tell..

You have drawn similar conclusion to i had 10 years ago. it'd be fair to say I'd expected it to happen sooner rather than later. however with current trends and styles of GW business model of late then it'd be only logical to see it happening. what window of time is anyones guess/bet. being also a veteran i also hold many similar concern for a hobby which i once loved. Are we investors:? indirectly yes, yes we are investors. without us, the consumer, then there'd be no outside ie official investors. ie without the consumer then GW wouldn't need to produce miniatures to sell a rules system etc. it'd be prudent to think otherwise.

GW relies on investors "consumer based and private". Investors only hold sway over financial "arm" of GW processes. it is the consumer who holds sway (leading direction) over production (if it is not well recieved, then it wont sell, or it will at a loss = squatting of a race or unit or something else).


Last thing to finish on (for me atleast. heres hoping) 2 main reasons people are leaving the hobby 1. GW's recent actions and descisions and 2. people growing older having better things to do (or have been priced out of the hobby. be warned the can of worms has been sprung) remember rule #1 folks

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Crimson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Comparing other system's pricing is a fallacy, firstly because as the market leader, it's GW's pricing which dictates what the competition will charge.

Oh wow! So it is now GWs fault that Warmachine miniatures are so expensive! This is really something special.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Harriticus wrote:

-Clear-cut scams like "limited edition" codex's that aren't just overpriced, they're actual literal scams that seek to steal your money unfairly

Willingly paying for worthless limited edition tag is not stealing. If people are stupid enough to pay, GW would be idiots if they wouldn't take this free money.


I certainly don't think that GW is perfect, far from it. It just seems to me that people's reactions are totally out of proportion, and totally disconnected from the reality of how big companies generally behave. Most things many here see as a horrible outrage are mildly annoying at most to me.

In response to the pricing, you can generally thank GW for the high prices. They are (currently) one of (if not) the largest companies in the miniatures industry. If we are willing to pay X dollars for a product then they are going to charge X dollars for said product. Competing companies are going to set prices at the same or a similar level. Why would Privateer Press charge $20 for a model that all things held the same GW would charge $60? (Obviously they are different companies but for comparison sake I hope you understand).

I tried to find the business definition to help better explain what is going on, I think it has to do with "Market Leader" and "Price Setters / Price Takers" but I cannot recall completely.

GW's competition sets its prices similarly, even if they are a bit cheaper to draw in customers they will generally not be 'that' much cheaper, hence why GW's major competition is similarly priced.

The key, as noted previously in this thread, is the start up cost. While prices for kits and models between GW, PP, and Wyrd might be similar, it takes far less of an initial investment to play Malifaux or Warmachine/Hordes in comparison to GW's Warhammer and Warhammer 40k.

To address the original post, I agree with what you are getting at. Do I hate some of GW's policies? You bet your ass I do. Do I understand 'some' of their policies, sure (protecting brick and mortar stores I agree with to an extent, I like playing at local stores and not simply buying products at online stores and playing in my garage). However I do think they raise prices for no reason, they sometimes have no idea what the value of a kit should be (right now plastic broadsides are more expensive than Forge World Broadsides, go figure), they have no real market strategy or plan other than to let information leak and officially release stuff a week ahead of launch give or take (hence why they don't seem to give a crap how expensive it is to start the hobby nor do they make it really easy to start the hobby). Furthermore, people are gonna cry, no matter what. Remember finecast? Everyone cried over that, even I did, but I called customer service on the phone and cried and they sent me replacement models (and a new can of Purity Seal and replacement models for other issues as well). You get what you pay for, and GW (from my experience) has good customer service if you call them. Furthermore, if people have complaints they should voice them to GW via email or phone, even if you don't think it is worth your time just do it. From a business perspective if they hear the same complaints enough perhaps they will make a change or listen and I doubt they are surfing Dakka to hear any ranting voices.

Hope the rant helps.

Last thing to finish on (for me atleast. heres hoping) 2 main reasons people are leaving the hobby 1. GW's recent actions and descisions and 2. people growing older having better things to do (or have been priced out of the hobby. be warned the can of worms has been sprung) remember rule #1 folks

There are other reasons but those two are high in the list so I agree with the comment.

 Dynamix wrote:

RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.

Thanks - Rationalization ticked

Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?

Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.

GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.

 Kingsley wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:
Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):

1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.

2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.

The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this, please stop making stuff up and passing it on as if it were facts.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this, please stop making stuff up and passing it on as if it were facts.

Aside from the fact that they actually tried to do it, research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case.

I think the difference is however that Battlefront came out of it a little better because they acquiesced to popular fan opinion. They have a forum, facebook page, amongst other connections through convention attendance, and there is at least the impression that they care what their fanbase thinks. I agree that it is more of a pressing issue for FoW, because it would be very easy for fans to jump en-masse to a different historical ruleset and pick up their shermans and panzers from any number of other manufacturers. But, Battlefront could have pressed ahead with it, lost a few customers because of it, and helped nurture the embers of discontent among the player base who stayed with the game.

There is also the situation that, if indeed GW are saying "we don't have to listen to our fans, we are making too much money to care" (and there is no indication that this is actually the case - they might genuinely think they are doing everything to the best of their ability) there is the case that they are not operating in a market place of 1, and each 'unpopular' policy change costs them some market share. Even if those are only a handful of people each time, those totals add up. And, considering the growth of the wargaming industry in general over the past few years, and GW's static position within that, we could already be seeing that in action.

 Kingsley wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this, please stop making stuff up and passing it on as if it were facts.

Aside from the fact that they actually tried to do it, research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case.

Pacific wrote:I think the difference is however that Battlefront came out of it a little better because they acquiesced to popular fan opinion. They have a forum, facebook page, amongst other connections through convention attendance, and there is at least the impression that they care what their fanbase thinks. I agree that it is more of a pressing issue for FoW, because it would be very easy for fans to jump en-masse to a different historical ruleset and pick up their shermans and panzers from any number of other manufacturers. But, Battlefront could have pressed ahead with it, lost a few customers because of it, and helped nurture the embers of discontent among the player base who stayed with the game.

This^^

Yes, BF tried to do it and then listened to the feedback from their customers and actually changed their mind!

Human psychology has absolutely nothing to do with it and your argument that "research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case" is a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing! Companies generally listen to feedback from their customers and use that feedback to help them guide their future decisions, this is what BF has done in this instance and you have ZERO evidence that they will change their behaviour in the future.

Comparing both companies and stating that BF would behave like GW if the roles were somewhat closer is another example of your disassemble of facts to try and white knight GW's actions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary... Please stop it its getting tiresome.

PhantomViper wrote:
Human psychology has absolutely nothing to do with it and your argument that "research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case" is a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing! Companies generally listen to feedback from their customers and use that feedback to help them guide their future decisions, this is what BF has done in this instance and you have ZERO evidence that they will change their behaviour in the future.

Excuse me? One of the primary messages of social psychology is that individual factors generally matter less than situational ones. This is 101-level stuff.

 Goliath wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.

The door swings both ways.

Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?

There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

The door really doesn't swing both ways.

What, you mean apart from on half a dozen high-profile blogs, everyone who's ever written or read a thread about INQ28/Necromunda including on this very forum, and several youtubers? Yep, can't think of anyone who's praised GW for the Nurgle champ. I've also never seen big threads focused around the conversion of other plastic characters GW have put out, like that "Pimp my wizard" thing that didn't happen. I must also have imagined the near-universal praise the company was given when they revamped the Dark Eldar line.

Anyway, sarcasm aside, you're also being disingenuous by trying to cast critique of GW as being nothing more than unreasonable and trite remarks on subjective aesthetics, when in reality most of the issues people discuss relate to the company's business strategy, pricing, and legal shenanigans.

 Kingsley wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Human psychology has absolutely nothing to do with it and your argument that "research into the influence of situational factors on human psychology would indicate this is nearly certainly the case" is a whole lot of words used to say absolutely nothing! Companies generally listen to feedback from their customers and use that feedback to help them guide their future decisions, this is what BF has done in this instance and you have ZERO evidence that they will change their behaviour in the future.

Excuse me? One of the primary messages of social psychology is that individual factors generally matter less than situational ones. This is 101-level stuff.

I once again applaud your initiative and apparent aptitude at dissembling! Bravo good sir.

 Goliath wrote:

Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.

I really, really want to respond to this, because one of the most regularly critical posters of GW, HBMC, routinely praises that entire batch of plastic characters, as do a sizeable number of other posters, and request more, much more like it, in terms of their sculpts, price and adaptability to kitbashing. The individual model not specifically, but that wave of plastic characters, absolutely and regularly praised on dakka as a great thing.

 Goliath wrote:

Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?

Two different things here, the pumbagor was ridiculed for being a poor sculpt (and it really is just awful) from a company that charges premium and claims to make 'the best model soldiers in the world' and the 'goldswords' were criticized as part of an ongoing trend to massively mark up certain plastic units along a 'rarity in game' pricing system that lead to a fairly cheap elite unit costing the bloody earth.

 Goliath wrote:

There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous. The door really doesn't swing both ways.

I worked in resolving corporate complaints for many years. Complaints outnumber compliments in business by hundreds to one, know why? Because if you're doing things right, you're doing things per customer expectation and you should take retained business and brand loyalty as your marks of success. Human nature is to remain silent when content and share your ire when not. You want to see praise, look up every time (and it happens about once a couple of months) a 'what's your favorite miniature' thread crops up or 'hello, I've just come back to gaming after many years away because I saw the new X models and just had to pick some up', or the 'here's my entire space marine company I've been collecting and building and painstakingly individualizing over the last 10 years' in modelling and painting threads.

That is the love and attention and that's what's telling GW 'you're not all bad you know', or would be, if they were to treat the internet forums as what they are, a tool for bringing hobbyists together.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dynamix wrote:

RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.

Thanks - Rationalization ticked

Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?

Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.

GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.

Yep , thanks , I think you must detect I actually know the answer to this question . It was was more of an invitation for those with lets say GW tinted spectacles to try and justify this as a 'good thing' .

If GW did make moves to try and restrict people , you and I , from listing our own property on E-Bay , then I find this outrageous , and very revealing of GW Corporation mindset .

A mitigation for me of GW pricing is the resale value

 Dynamix wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dynamix wrote:

RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.

Thanks - Rationalization ticked

Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?

Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.

GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.

Yep , thanks , I think you must detect I actually know the answer to this question . It was was more of an invitation for those with lets say GW tinted spectacles to try and justify this as a 'good thing' .

If GW did make moves to try and restrict people , you and I , from listing our own property on E-Bay , then I find this outrageous , and very revealing of GW Corporation mindset .

A mitigation for me of GW pricing is the resale value

I agree with you here.

Luckily British trading laws do not allow anyone to start controlling the second-hand market. Re-sales can be limited on places like Amazon, but this is because Amazon is often used as a first-sale site, where companies sell their stuff.
Ebay, however is pure re-sale, and therefore cannot be bossed around by GW.

 Dynamix wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

A mitigation for me of GW pricing is the resale value

I find the resale value of GW is at a total low at the moment. Everybodys trying to get a deal on ebay, so the cash isn't great.

Just got a WoC army to offload now............

 -Loki- wrote:
Please don't try and lump Dakka in with your views. Plenty of people gripe about GW here but still play their games. There's actually very few of you lot that come in here to gripe that have actually stopped playing their games entirely.

Not playing games with your existing fig collections punishes the player much more than the company as opposed to not buying or selling those collections on the secondary market. I got fed up with GW a while back (see the sig) and simply haven't purchased any new armies while also actively paring down my fig collection to a few completely painted forces that require little to no additional effort or expenditure on my part. My GW purchase total for the past few years (which I do update including just last week for tau) consists mostly of codex purchases for existing armies and a few paint pots here and there but total less than what I'd usually buy from them in a quarter. The only models I've bought since making the decision have been a second hand gamesday fig and a plastic GK kit that I preordered prior to the decision along with the codex (no sense in screwing over the FLGS and backing out on a preorder). The GW corporate culture and decisions have stopped them from largely making almost any money off of me but I still like the universe/IP which is why I still occasionally play (despite my dislike of 6th edition "cinematic" gameplay). Am I indirectly supporting them by adding myself to the occasional pool of players at the FLGS which encourages others to buy their products? Yes, I suppose.. but that's not money out of my pocket and I'm a firm believer in each gamer (regardless of how stupid) being able to make their own recreation time purchase decisions.