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 Kingsley wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
One interesting fact about human psychology is that people seem to accept or reject arguments based not on their factual content, but based on whether they agree with the conclusions.

Another interesting fact about human psychology is how everyone who puts forward a theory like that never seem to consider that it might apply to them as well as the people they're disagreeing with.

Cute. Not right, but cute.

Polonius wrote:The point is, nearly any positive GW discussion is going to take place outside of the general forums, and instead will be in Modeling, gaming, battle reports, tactics, whatever.

I think that's fairly easy to notice-- the real question is why it is the case, and what can be done to fix the problem.

Why do you think it is a problem?

 Kingsley wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
If you're truly concerned about connections to reality (which you might be, as a sidelight to your flamewar business), you'd follow the examples of people like Yak or Hulk or the guys that post reasons they like stuff, and why things can be great, rather than constantly butting heads.

I, uh, do post reasons why I like stuff. I would say that most of my posts are far more high-effort and evidence-based than those of the people arguing with me. Generally speaking a minority viewpoint has to be more rigorously supported in order to be successful, since people will otherwise be inclined to dismiss it out of hand.

But what Polonius says is spot on, and you go on to openly say 'my posts are better than those of people arguing with me'. Missing his point entirely, his point is stop arguing, stop targeting and state making a strong positive point of your own instead of taking on what you perceive as negative posts and heaping negativity on them.

GW does X
Poster says 'hey I don't like X'
You retort with 'you're dumb for disliking X'
Poster rounds on you and say 'nu-uh, you're dumb because Y'
and round and round we go.

You go page after page after page with people and then complain that the site is a negative and conflict stewn hellhole.

You make that happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BryllCream wrote:
People are still knocking GW for not advertising, despite new Tau stuff being horifically popular? Sounds about right

1. Is there any evidence that not advertising produce sells more than advertising product? Conventional business wisdom seems to indicate that informing people of your wares allows them to buy your wares.

2. Do you have anything at all to back up your statement that Tau is horrifically popular as opposed to the counter argument that they made less or there was a problem in the production of the product?

Or are we, once again, being treated to your opinion as fact and every else's opinion being treated as nonsense, by you...

 Goliath wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.

The door swings both ways.

Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.
Conversely, when was the last time you heard of someone criticising GW for a model that was released a while ago that people still refer to by a stupid nickname? "the Pumbagor" "goldswords" etc?

There is a huge disparity between the amount that GW are criticised for getting something wrong, and the amount they are praised for getting it very right, and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

The door really doesn't swing both ways.

What are you talking about?


You didn't like the superheavy tanks or stompa models?

You didn't like 5th editions Ork codex when it was relevent?

The Dark Eldar Took them damn near 10 years, but didn't they eventually revamp them into something useable?

The disparity is in how GW can swing that door, to on one hand- make better models, yet make such gak decisions amounting to a WTF reaction from me as a customer.
There is no disparity. GW either craps the bed, or they make a game that they can spin into what they want you to think it is.

GW is a gak company, but the game is what people like, for good or ill.

As to your champion comment- so what?

Just because they make a good model ignores the total package. That demon codex is gak. Who cares if they make a good model at that point, or plastic units for three times the old cost of the metals? When you change the game to such an extent- GW plays a zero sum gain when they close down stores, crap on FLGS's and rewrite the product to the extent that the game becomes unplayable with ALREADY released codex's.

That good Ork codex, that pretty good Dark Eldar codex is now worthless, as are the models. Example- painfully so? Orks from 4th edition to 5th. They go from metal specifics to plastic general use.

To the kid that throws down his 50.00 for the purchase, then to be told- "Don't come back in here, we don't want you here painting and playing..." They then not only lose out on playing a game, but 50.00 and build in the continuous ire that GW brings to the table.

Oh, and by the way- the running joke is still relevent.

"I'm a porche..."

 Kingsley wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Why is it a problem?

I mean, seriously? So a bunch of people in a handful of threads in a few places are super mean to GW.

And as for why, for the same reason guys sitting around a bar rarely speak well of their wives: sometimes venting is just venting.

It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.

Divorced from reality? I'm gona tell you my Reality.. I find it really hard to find anyone who has anything good to say about GW these days, when I'm out playing in my area. All the clubs I play in have mostly stoped playing the game, and are now playing better options on the market. That is my Reality..

The one thing that has changed though in the last few years is that I meet more and more people who are activly advocating against GW. Telling others not to play the game and pointing out all the flaws in the rules etc..

 Morachi wrote:
Also a good (if very jaded) read - http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Workshop

That was a long rant, could have been a funny parody but it didnt quite make it from rant to satire.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Because E-bay is bigger than GW.

No because E-bay is more profit oriented than GW.

They have spent considerable amounts of money in Washington DC lobbying congress to prevent rules and regulations that apply to pawn shops from being applied to them. The amount of stolen goods that circulate through E-bay is pretty staggering. They rely on "user policing" to control this, but they spend minimal amounts actual Ebay staff to police this.

There are supposedly several people who are banned from my LGS' because they are know shoplifters and they sell the goods on Ebay. Put that $40 kit in a pocket, walk out, and put on Ebay for instant profit.

 Goliath wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
The hate flows when GW screws up, just as the praise comes when they do well.

The door swings both ways.

Pahahaha!! Oh, you're serious? So, when was the last time you heard of someone praising GW for, for example, the plastic Nurgle Champion? It's an amazing model, but outside of a few " that's really nice" posts in the thread where it was announced, i cant remember it being mentioned since.

WTF, you think a plastic infantry size model that cost $25 is worth praise. Its bad enough that people will bend over and pay that price but you praising that product is truly atonishing.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.

If you feel there is a problem with the community being divorced from reality, why fight tooth and nail against people making negative comments? It only serves to polarise the community even further. There's no problem with individuals being divorced from reality, at worst it's simply a polarisation of the community.

I think that a polarized community is better than one that outright refuses to see one side of an issue.

Nucflash wrote:The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...

I disagree. 6th edition is probably the most balanced edition of the game yet. First edition and second edition did not even really try to be balanced. Third edition and fourth edition were dominated by gimmicks. Fifth edition was better, but there was still a very prevalent style of army (mech) favored by most serious players, which while not as bad as the Rhino Rush of 3rd edition or the holo-Falcons and Nidzilla spam of 4th edition, was still somewhat dull and limiting. Sixth edition does not seem to have any style of army that is anywhere close to as dominant as other editions have had.

Nucflash wrote:The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..

Them "giving up trying to fix the rules" exists only in your mind.

Nucflash wrote:The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..

A lot of people disagree with many decisions made by GW on a corporate level. But what I think they don't realize is that any other company would make the same decisions were they in the same place (see the Plastic Soldier Company issue). When you evaluate GW, you have to consider positional factors. For instance, the new White Dwarf is far, far more professional than the old White Dwarf. The new GW website is far, far more professional than the old GW website. Both of them no longer include certain types of content which many found appealing-- but that content would be very hard to develop and show in a professional manner.

Now, some of GW's decisions are stupid. Their lawsuits over the phrase "Space Marine" are laughable to anyone who knows about the science fiction tradition of that phrase. But the few stupid decisions seem to have been blown out of proportion into a general bias against GW's decisions, good or not.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:You go page after page after page with people and then complain that the site is a negative and conflict stewn hellhole.

You make that happen.

I would rather have the site be negative and conflict-strewn than systematically biased and one-sided. Again, I think that seeing multiple sides to an issue is far more important than harmony and lack of arguments on these forums. You yourself claim that this site is influential for a great number of hobbyists. If that's true, isn't it even more important that they get an unbiased perspective, or at the very least see that there are two sides to any issue? Also, much of the issues here IMO lie with the moderation team's apparent unwillingness to remove insulting content. I think that Rule One should be enforced much more strongly than it currently is.

End result remains the same though me and my 12 friends (gaming group) stoped playing games workshop games and picked up others instead. We used to be 18 in my gaming club but the remaining 6 have stoped playing table-top games all together (their GW armies are collecting dust on the shelfs in our local gaming club, they havent been used for over a year now.)...

Two of the larger clubs in my local area ( I would estimate they are about 60-70 people in total ( about 30-60m drive from were i live), have all stoped playing games workshop games. What remains are the toddlers playing at GWs shop in town(vets are baned from the shop) and one Club in the city, that are mostly dead.(their forums are a ghost town, they are not that active anymore) that play GWs games...

That is what "only exist in my mind" and my "imaginary unbalanced rules" have done to warhammer and GW games in my local area. The funny thing though is that we have an active Blood Bowl community, and people who play Mordheim, but GW do not suport those games rules anymore, they live on because of the dedicated people of the community hahaha.... And they use alot of other figures in their games.. so GW arnt making any money of these people..

Tomorrow we are going to a warmachine Tournament that will have about 70-80 people participating.. the community (that GW hates) made this happen... In the End the community of the hobby are Judge, jury and executioner.. if we decide GW is gak it is gak... even if we are imagining things and are totaly wrong... We can shut them down whenever we want... And that is what will happen if they dont Make a U turn and start doing things the way we want them done..

 Kingsley wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
It's always dangerous for a community to become too divorced from reality. In reality, GW is neither good nor evil. It's just another company trying to make money, and there really isn't anything that notable about it.

If you feel there is a problem with the community being divorced from reality, why fight tooth and nail against people making negative comments? It only serves to polarise the community even further. There's no problem with individuals being divorced from reality, at worst it's simply a polarisation of the community.

I think that a polarized community is better than one that outright refuses to see one side of an issue.

Nucflash wrote:The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...

I disagree. 6th edition is probably the most balanced edition of the game yet. First edition and second edition did not even really try to be balanced. Third edition and fourth edition were dominated by gimmicks. Fifth edition was better, but there was still a very prevalent style of army (mech) favored by most serious players, which while not as bad as the Rhino Rush of 3rd edition or the holo-Falcons and Nidzilla spam of 4th edition, was still somewhat dull and limiting. Sixth edition does not seem to have any style of army that is anywhere close to as dominant as other editions have had.

Nucflash wrote:The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..

Them "giving up trying to fix the rules" exists only in your mind.

Nucflash wrote:The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..

A lot of people disagree with many decisions made by GW on a corporate level. But what I think they don't realize is that any other company would make the same decisions were they in the same place (see the Plastic Soldier Company issue). When you evaluate GW, you have to consider positional factors. For instance, the new White Dwarf is far, far more professional than the old White Dwarf. The new GW website is far, far more professional than the old GW website. Both of them no longer include certain types of content which many found appealing-- but that content would be very hard to develop and show in a professional manner.

Now, some of GW's decisions are stupid. Their lawsuits over the phrase "Space Marine" are laughable to anyone who knows about the science fiction tradition of that phrase. But the few stupid decisions seem to have been blown out of proportion into a general bias against GW's decisions, good or not.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:You go page after page after page with people and then complain that the site is a negative and conflict stewn hellhole.

You make that happen.

I would rather have the site be negative and conflict-strewn than systematically biased and one-sided. Again, I think that seeing multiple sides to an issue is far more important than harmony and lack of arguments on these forums. You yourself claim that this site is influential for a great number of hobbyists. If that's true, isn't it even more important that they get an unbiased perspective, or at the very least see that there are two sides to any issue? Also, much of the issues here IMO lie with the moderation team's apparent unwillingness to remove insulting content. I think that Rule One should be enforced much more strongly than it currently is.

Are you actually reading what you are posting here?

What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.

Nah Nucflash. I'm sure all those people dropping 40K is all to do with their negativity (and regional minimum wages), and nothing at all to do with anything GW has done in the past 5 years.

 Nucflash wrote:
End result remains the same though me and my 12 friends (gaming group) stoped playing games workshop games and picked up others instead. We used to be 18 in my gaming club but the remaining 6 have stoped playing table-top games all together (their GW armies are collecting dust on the shelfs in our local gaming club, they havent been used for over a year now.)...

Two of the larger clubs in my local area ( I would estimate they are about 60-70 people in total ( about 30-60m drive from were i live), have all stoped playing games workshop games. What remains are the toddlers playing at GWs shop in town(vets are baned from the shop) and one Club in the city, that are mostly dead.(their forums are a ghost town, they are not that active anymore) that play GWs games...

That is what "only exist in my mind" and my "imaginary unbalanced rules" have done to warhammer and GW games in my local area. The funny thing though is that we have an active Blood Bowl community, and people who play Mordheim, but GW do not suport those games rules anymore, they live on because of the dedicated people of the community hahaha.... And they use alot of other figures in their games.. so GW arnt making any money of these people..

Okay. In my area the GW community is growing. Who is right?!?

The answer, of course, is that different people and groups of people can react to things differently and that there isn't really a "right" and "wrong" here. There is room for both perspectives-- but on these forums, that might be hard to spot.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nah Nucflash. I'm sure all those people dropping 40K is all to do with their negativity (and regional minimum wages), and nothing at all to do with anything GW has done in the past 5 years.

Haha yes .....

xraytango wrote:
What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.

Sure, here's a link.

 Nucflash wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 bkiker wrote:
I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.

I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...

The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..

The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..

That people keep defending them makes it all the more fun... haha

Not defending gw but I must inform you of solutions to you're strikes

Solution 1 to you're strike one: stop playing or play out dated editions

Solution 2 to you're strike two: See above solution.

Solution 3 to you're strike three: Don't like what the company does okay so do what normal people do and stop buying their product.

Now I am sure you will agree those are proper solutions that you no doubt thought of already. Me on the other hand will just grin, promptly bend over and wait for GW to rape me again, let's face it I am addicted to 40k

So they said, we won't send support for our game if you don't use our models and everyone got butt-hurt over it?

So now its "please compose 50% of your army from our models for events using our rules and our support."?

Sorry, I fail to see the parallel with this and general ninney-hammered moves that GW makes.

I honestly don't see whats wrong with requiring a range of models to be used with a set of rules in order to receive tournament support from the company that makes them.

So it was Battlefront drama more than any policy from PSC.

Am I reading that wrong?

 Kingsley wrote:

xraytango wrote:
What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.

Sure, here's a link.

Ah, yes. Plastic Soldier Company and Battlefront.

Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):

1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.

2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.

xraytango wrote:

I honestly don't see whats wrong with requiring a range of models to be used with a set of rules in order to receive tournament support from the company that makes them.

Simply put, that's taboo in Historicals. There has never really been a company that produces miniatures and rules and demanded that only their models be used in their events (even GW didn't do with with their Historical lines of rules, because they knew how stupid that would be).

 infinite_array wrote:
Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):

1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.

2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.

The difference is solely positional. If Battlefront were in a position where they could ignore the outcry and just say "nope, not allowed" (as GW is), they would.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
End result remains the same

Okay. In my area the GW community is growing. Who is right?!?

The answer, of course, is that different people and groups of people can react to things differently and that there isn't really a "right" and "wrong" here. There is room for both perspectives-- but on these forums, that might be hard to spot.

Funny thing though Kingsley is that your own countrymen are telling a totaly diffrent story.. and some are even asking you what alternate reality you are inhabiting? In the end it comes down to numbers and your local gaming community looks on the surface to be in the minority... And if I look out into my own reality they reflect these boards perfectly..

Now using ordinary logic, your gaming area will at some point become effected by whats happening around it.. This means even if you have been spared thus far.. time will catch up to you.. Its just the nature of the beast... It can of course be stopped. But then GW has to take action now.. or in the end, your Island of GW gamers will get swallowed up by the larger community..

I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards.. But a better action would be to join the rest of us now and we can put pressure on GW today!. and not when its to late and the last bastion of GW gamers falls into the abyss and are lost forever... Because at this point all evidence points to this, everything from GWs stagnent sales(that they keep up by raising prices).. To idiotic decisions that brings them closer and closer to the precipice that will tip the scale towards their competitors and send them swirling down in a death spiral...

 Nucflash wrote:
Funny thing though Kingsley is that your own countrymen are telling a totaly diffrent story.. and some are even asking you what alternate reality you are inhabiting? In the end it comes down to numbers and your local gaming community looks on the surface to be in the minority... And if I look out into my own reality they reflect these boards perfectly..

The US is a big place. And what "countrymen" do you refer to-- the ones on these boards? Of course most people on these boards will have the consensus opinion of these boards!

 Nucflash wrote:
Now using ordinary logic, your gaming area will at some point become effected by whats happening around it.. This means even if you have been spared thus far.. time will catch up to you.. Its just the nature of the beast... It can of course be stopped. But then GW has to take action now.. or in the end, your Island of GW gamers will get swallowed up by the larger community..

I don't think your understanding of the larger community is accurate.

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

 Nucflash wrote:
But a better action would be to join the rest of us now and we can put pressure on GW today!. and not when its to late and the last bastion of GW gamers falls into the abyss and are lost forever... Because at this point all evidence points to this, everything from GWs stagnent sales(that they keep up by raising prices).. To idiotic decisions that brings them closer and closer to the precipice that will tip the scale towards their competitors and send them swirling down in a death spiral...

I'll be interested to see what this exchange looks like in hindsight in 2018 or so.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

xraytango wrote:
What is the PSC issue? Can you post up a link please. I know that they have a few different scales, but I thought they just produce figures, didn't know they had drama as well.

Sure, here's a link.

Ah, yes. Plastic Soldier Company and Battlefront.

Two points, Kingsley, that I feel need to be mentioned (as I realize that you certainly won't be including them):

1. The current higher-ups at Battlefront are GW trained. Thus, it is not unexpected that they would respond to a problem (i.e., competition) in a manner that GW would.

2. That decision was reversed - Sinsynn doesn't mention it, but thanks to the vocal outcry from their online community (gee, isn't there a thread on that right now?), that number was decreased to 50% - a goal that is easily accomplished by using BF infantry (which are relatively on par with other metal 15mm WWII miniatures) with PSC vehicles, which are obviously cheaper.

xraytango wrote:

I honestly don't see whats wrong with requiring a range of models to be used with a set of rules in order to receive tournament support from the company that makes them.

Simply put, that's taboo in Historicals. There has never really been a company that produces miniatures and rules and demanded that only their models be used in their events (even GW didn't do with with their Historical lines of rules, because they knew how stupid that would be).

GW didn't really ever have a wide selection of historical figures, unless you count the offerings from Foundry, and even then those were limited ranges, that other manufacturers did as well, better, or had other time-period appropriate armies.

WWII is far too ubiquitous to really exert control over which models are used, but for promotional purposes, which tournaments are, you would want your figures to be in the forefront of that use. So then it is a matter of not what models are used, but whose models are used.

Historicals have been rules or minis, very rarely have there been both from the same manufacturer.

It's all about promotion, and BF wanted to promote its products. Most gamers could care less though and it only would affect the tournament scene. Historical players are more concerned with correct kit and color, I should know I are one!

So I can see their purpose, especially as former GW employees running things, but it could have resulted in massive losses.

 Kingsley wrote:

 bkiker wrote:
I hope I'm mistaken and have just stumbled into wrong threads and topics.

I'm not entirely sure what caused the culture of these boards to become so anti-GW, but to be honest I'm growing increasingly tired of it and am tempted to start posting on boards where people are a little more clear-headed.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:

The first reason is that the game rules are stupid and unbalanced, that was strike one for GW. The game is unplaybal as far as I'm concerned...

The second reason was them giving up trying to fix the rules and saying they suport "cinimatic gameplay", and stopped giving suport to competative gamplay.. That was Strike two..

The third reason was all the crap they made on a corporate level the last two years... We laugh our ass off at my local club at all the idiotic decisions they keep making.. That was the third and final strike..

That people keep defending them makes it all the more fun... haha

Not defending gw but I must inform you of solutions to you're strikes

Solution 1 to you're strike one: stop playing or play out dated editions

Solution 2 to you're strike two: See above solution.

[list]Solution 3 to you're strike three: Don't like what the company does okay so do what normal people do and stop buying their product.

Now I am sure you will agree those are proper solutions that you no doubt thought of already. Me on the other hand will just grin, promptly bend over and wait for GW to rape me again, let's face it I am addicted to 40k

I wasent really asking for solutions? I was informing Kingsley why the boards here might be a little negative towards GW.... I pointed out 3 things that I personaly think have contributed to the fact that Games Workshop do not see much play time in my local area, and why people are very negative in general towards their games...

Prices are not the main reason we stoped playing their game, the game is, you might want to try a few others yourself to be honest before you quote"bend over again" hehe, you might get surprised at how good the competion really is...

Ps I have stoped playing GW games a long time ago....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

 Nucflash wrote:
But a better action would be to join the rest of us now and we can put pressure on GW today!. and not when its to late and the last bastion of GW gamers falls into the abyss and are lost forever... Because at this point all evidence points to this, everything from GWs stagnent sales(that they keep up by raising prices).. To idiotic decisions that brings them closer and closer to the precipice that will tip the scale towards their competitors and send them swirling down in a death spiral...

 Kingsley wrote:

I'll be interested to see what this exchange looks like in hindsight in 2018 or so.

Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...

But it's the only action I get

 Nucflash wrote:
I wasent really asking for solutions? I was informing Kingsley why the boards here might be a little negative towards GW.... I pointed out 3 things that I personaly think have contributed to the fact that Games Workshop do not see much play time in my local area, and why people are very negative in general towards their games...

Prices are not the main reason we stoped playing their game, the game is, you might want to try a few others yourself to be honest before you quote"bend over again" hehe, you might get surprised at how good the competion really is...

Please don't try and lump Dakka in with your views. Plenty of people gripe about GW here but still play their games. There's actually very few of you lot that come in here to gripe that have actually stopped playing their games entirely.

 Nucflash wrote:
Ps I have stoped playing GW games a long time ago....

Then surely there must be something in your life more important than moaning about something you don't have anything to do with anymore?

 Nucflash wrote:
Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...

Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?

 -Loki- wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I wasent really asking for solutions? I was informing Kingsley why the boards here might be a little negative towards GW.... I pointed out 3 things that I personaly think have contributed to the fact that Games Workshop do not see much play time in my local area, and why people are very negative in general towards their games...

Prices are not the main reason we stoped playing their game, the game is, you might want to try a few others yourself to be honest before you quote"bend over again" hehe, you might get surprised at how good the competion really is...

Please don't try and lump Dakka in with your views. Plenty of people gripe about GW here but still play their games. There's actually very few of you lot that come in here to gripe that have actually stopped playing their games entirely.

 Nucflash wrote:
Ps I have stoped playing GW games a long time ago....

Then surely there must be something in your life more important than moaning about something you don't have anything to do with anymore?

Lets be clear This is Dakka General discussion.. this is not the GW 40k/fantasy subforum.. Dakka also has warmachine forum on these boards if you have missed that? And yes I am very interested in how things are going for GW.. It is in my personal best interest that things go downhill for them.. Also if they shaped up and actually made a playabal game I might still consider comming back to play it (That they would change the rules and make the game fun for me and my buddies is a real long shoot though). But getting more deffecters to play other games with is an achievable goal.. and I will continue to work towards that goal..

If I whent into the 40k forums on this site and started pissing on the game your points would be valid.. now not so much...

Ex 40k playing Warmachine players are worse than ex smokers/drinkers/crack addicts combined in my experience.

I'm not sure if it's a desperate need to validate their choice, or just a moderate lack of class, but even amongst my friends who have made the leap they can't help but try and persuade me that 'their' game is 'better'.

My response is always the same, I have no issue with the gameplay, and I will look at starting a faction once PP start making minis that I don't consider fugly.

It's no surprise that some cant help but jump on the beat GW bandwagon, regardless of how justified it may or may not be.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
Lets hope for your sake that I'm worse at predicting outcomes for Table-top games then MMORPGs... I have been right 100% when it comes to video games, what would make it and what would Fail.. I would not have been this bold back in 2004, the Table-top scene was alot diffrent.. But now in the year 2013 things are looking very diffrent. The main problem GW is facing is regrowth. They have based their business model on getting new players (childrean) into the hobby. But this is not the 90s.. I find it very hard to see how they are going to maintain that model going forward. And as many of the veteran players have left them (and are not comming back).. Who will be playing their games in 2018?? not the kidds born 2000-2005, they will not be interested in Toy soldiers.. Unless they have parents who urge them into the hobby...

Are you aware that people were literally saying the exact same thing back in '92?

To be honest man they wernt I was there... 40k rouge trader came out in 1989.. or atleast we saw it for the first time around the 1990s.. and there was no other game around to play if you wanted to play Table top games(atleast not here in sweden, historical games have never had any following here).. So in our local shop there where Roleplaying games like WhitWolfs, vampire, D20 systems like D&D and we also had alot of lokaly produced Roleplaying games in swedish (the scene here in the 90s was large, much bigger then it is today. We had alot of fun with 40k and fantasy and there was no DOOM and Gloom.. GW also had alot of other cool games back then like space hulk, Blood Bowl and many others... Card games hadent really come into the market jet.. they got big a few years later... You have to understand we played the Zega and nintento 8bit systems and amiga and atari and commendore 64 games on the computer back then hehe.. It was a totaly diffrent world... It took over a year or more before a movie got over here after its première in the states.. we had no cellphones haha... hmm you cant compare the begining of the 90s with 2013 hahah .. you just cant sorry..

I'm Old and Im wise and I have been around for a long long time, Both in computer games and in Roleplaying and Table-top games.. and it has never been this bad.(from a gw perspective)

Quote from Usenet circa 1992:

"BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures?"