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 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

So where can I go for GW supported tournaments?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

So where can I go for GW supported tournaments?

I would not be surprised if they have a Time Machines in Kingsleys alternat Reality hehe... .....

Iran has a time machine (apparently), Maybe Kingsley has access to it?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

So where can I go for GW supported tournaments?

Warhammer World!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dynamix wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dynamix wrote:

RatBot Beause GW would like to control the entire miniature wargames industry, including the second hand market, and is delusional enough to believe that it is both capable of doing so and within its rights to do it.

Thanks - Rationalization ticked

Now anyone want to have a go at why GW trying to restrict people selling their own property , and which GW has no legal basis in trying to restrict , how this is actually really a good thing ?

Because GW is under the impression that second-hand sales hurt their first-hand sales. They see everyone that buys their product from someone else as lost profit. They want their miniatures to only ever have one owner, a disposable product that is never resold once its bought.

GW needs to realize they are making a durable good, not a non-durable good. A product that actually has an indeterminant lifespan. A model bought today could easily still be usable in 50 years, or even 100 years.

Yep , thanks , I think you must detect I actually know the answer to this question . It was was more of an invitation for those with lets say GW tinted spectacles to try and justify this as a 'good thing' .

If GW did make moves to try and restrict people , you and I , from listing our own property on E-Bay , then I find this outrageous , and very revealing of GW Corporation mindset .

A mitigation for me of GW pricing is the resale value

I don't understand this - what makes you think GW are trying to restrict people's ability to resell their stuff on ebay?

The fact that in 2009 they actually sent eBay a letter requesting any 2nd hand sales be blocked. Thankfully eBay told them to shove it.

 Morachi wrote:
The fact that in 2009 they actually sent eBay a letter requesting any 2nd hand sales be blocked. Thankfully eBay told them to shove it.

A quick google search gave me a thread on dakkadakka where someone says that he received a message from someone on ebay, saying that GW didn't want his store selling new GW products on ebay, which is a million miles from what you suggested. Do you have a source?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iran has a time machine (apparently), Maybe Kingsley has access to it?

This is the sound it makes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2sKH8yjVsM

I love how the GW bashers just resort to mod-sanctioned trolling in these threads

And we love apologists. So it evens out.

I've never resorted to trolling threads in leui of responding to contrary arguments. Regardless, you've been reported so I suggest you let someone with something to add to the topic at hand make the next post.

 BryllCream wrote:
I've never resorted to trolling threads in leui of responding to contrary arguments.

You've posted contrary arguments? News to me. All I’ve seen is people lining up to say how much your ‘arguments’ aren’t actually arguments and are often so far from the point as to be literally busting with straw and red herrings.

Just like you're last couple of posts.

My last couple of posts relate to me asking for someone to cite evidence in support of their claim. I know you *love* red herrings, straw men, ad homs, and other little tidbits from your favourite website, but if your next post contains nothing but nonsense I'm just going to ignore it and let a mod deal with you.

In fact, I think there might be a connection between GW ragers and the notion of strawmen/red herrings. Their attitude is such that anyone who does not see GW the way that they do must surely have a different, flawed perception of reality, and therefore any argument railed against them must be fallacious - you can either agree with them, or you are addressing a non-existant reality. I wonder if we can classify it as a new mental condition? Severe Butt Hurt Syndrom, or SBH.

Note that "apologists" or "white knights" are far more likely to point out areas that they dislike GW, than ragers are to point out areas that they like GW. That in itself says a lot about the extremism of the view point.

The Blue Knight strikes again. Butthurt Syndrom? That's amazing. You come up with that all by yourself?

 BryllCream wrote:
I know you *love* red herrings, straw men, ad homs, and other little tidbits from your favourite website...

Never actually been to that link, but thanks for it. It’ll make things a little quicker.

BryllCream wrote:... but if your next post contains nothing but nonsense I'm just going to ignore it and let a mod deal with you.

I’ll stop posting nonsense if you do. C’mon – pinky swear!

BryllCream wrote:In fact, I think there might be a connection between GW ragers and the notion of strawmen/red herrings.

What did you just say about nonsense?

BryllCream wrote:Their attitude is such that anyone who does not see GW the way that they do must surely have a different, flawed perception of reality, and therefore any argument railed against them must be fallacious - you can either agree with them, or you are addressing a non-existant reality.

Completely untrue. When I see someone claim that GW prices haven’t gone up in 8 years, or that they’re doing nothing wrong, then I assume that they’re either a moron or live in some bizzaro land where GW staff give out free hugs and candy to everyone to walks into the deeply staffed vet-friendly multi-gaming table retail outlets.

Plus it’s really not that difficult to figure out. If you have a litany of people lining up to list the things they perceive as wrong with a company, and one person going “Nope. Everything is totally fine!” Then is it any surprise that you’d question their... not sanity... perception of reality?

BryllCream wrote:I wonder if we can classify it as a new mental condition? Severe Butt Hurt Syndrom, or SBH.

To quote that website you linked, ad hominem. You’re attacking us rather than our points.

BryllCream wrote:Note that "apologists" or "white knights" are far more likely to point out areas that they dislike GW...

Except that they’re not. That’s the entire concept of a white knight/apologist. They apologise or otherwise explain away any and all criticism.

What you’re actually describing is the typical fan, someone who really likes something but also vents enormously about its faults like someone who likes Lost but talks endlessly about all the stupid things in it, or someone who loves 40K but cannot stand stupid rules or the company that makes it.

Focussing on the actual content of your post rather than the "fluff".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Completely untrue. When I see someone claim that GW prices haven’t gone up in 8 years

You mean like that post that compared the prices of things 8 years ago with the price of things now? And the Butthurt Brigade's response was to simply list random prices of things?

Note that those afflicted by butthurt refused to accept that *anything* had stayed the same price - in fact the tone of your post suggests that you consider this possibility absurd, despite the cast iron evidence supporting it. Whereas the GW "apologists" (or, resonably minded people) could happily accept that prices had gone up, sometimes massively, in many areas, but most of the "core" box sets had risen slightly if at all.

or that they’re doing nothing wrong

Who said that? I don't think I've seen *anyone* say that GW has never done anything wrong.

Plus it’s really not that difficult to figure out. If you have a litany of people lining up to list the things they perceive as wrong with a company, and one person going “Nope. Everything is totally fine!” Then is it any surprise that you’d question their... not sanity... perception of reality?

The rest of your post is filled with all those fallacies that you love to trot out, then you casually mention that you're right because everyone on the internet agrees with you?

BryllCream wrote:
Except that they’re not. That’s the entire concept of a white knight/apologist. They apologise or otherwise explain away any and all criticism.

What you’re actually describing is the typical fan, someone who really likes something but also vents enormously about its faults like someone who likes Lost but talks endlessly about all the stupid things in it, or someone who loves 40K but cannot stand stupid rules or the company that makes it.

Then by that definition there are no apologists on these boards. No one has apologised for what GW do, they simply seek to offer an explaination that's more complex than whatever the hate machine came out with.

 BryllCream wrote:
I've never resorted to trolling threads in leui of responding to contrary arguments. Regardless, you've been reported so I suggest you let someone with something to add to the topic at hand make the next post.

Trolling? I was having honest fun taking the piss out of kingsley and you got butthurt.Then claimed everyone else was unreasonable,butthurt, ignorant, and should crown you as the supreme grand master of all that is right in the world.

"Haters" and "ragers" as you say are pointing out flaws in GWs policy, that include gems like isolating and alienating whole countries (but whatever right?) and you tell us that its fine and we should just accept that, that is what apologists do, they make reasons to accept terrible behaviour. By all means tell us GW is doing a great job, and prices for an army havent changed in 10 years.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

So where can I go for GW supported tournaments?

Warhammer World!

Excellent, so glad that they're making the type of HHHobby I want available to all .

Seriously, I do realize there are tournaments for GW games, but unlike several other game companies, GW sadly just doesn't get out there and say, "Here's the Official Games Workshop Tournament Circuit" at least... they don't anymore. I never got a chance to do 'Ard Boyz because they cancelled it the year I was going to enter it, and, feth Throne of Skulls, that's gone too . There's nothing official on a wide scale from GW anymore, and that's a bit of a sad thing.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

So where can I go for GW supported tournaments?

Nowhere (or maybe Las Vegas), but who cares? 40k is so widely played that every store I know of runs 40k tournaments regardless of GW prize support (which sometimes they get and sometimes they don't), and there are by far the greatest number of large independent tournaments as well. If I wanted to, I could trivially go to an RTT every week-- perhaps more than one! No other miniatures wargame offers anything close in my experience, though obviously MtG and the like have us beat in that respect.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
I understand that you know this and that is why you are fighting thooth and claw on these boards..

If I thought GW was doomed I would switch systems to Infinity right now. I don't, so I'm not. GW has by far the strongest tournament scene and largest number of players of any game in my area and nobody is even remotely close.

So where can I go for GW supported tournaments?

Nowhere (or maybe Las Vegas), but who cares? 40k is so widely played that every store I know of runs 40k tournaments regardless of GW prize support (which sometimes they get and sometimes they don't), and there are by far the greatest number of large independent tournaments as well. If I wanted to, I could trivially go to an RTT every week-- perhaps more than one! No other miniatures wargame offers anything close in my experience, though obviously MtG and the like have us beat in that respect.

Fyi, you can't go to Las Vegas anymore, Throne of Skulls is dead and gone. I won't argue that 40k is the prevalent beast upon the market, but while you anecdotally say that every store you know of runs 40k tournaments regardless of prize support, every store I frequent, doesn't run 40k tournaments. If I want tournament level 40k, I have to drive to Toledo, Columbus, or Dayton for a tournament. And I'm in Ohio, which is a pretty solid place for miniature wargaming on the competitive level, I've heard horror stories about some of the players in Toledo (not because they're dicks, well some are, but because of how solid of players they are). So I have to drive 2 hours to Toledo, 2 Hours to Columbus, or almost 4 hours to Dayton or Cincinnati. On the other hand, I can drive an hour and a half (or so) to Erie Pa, an hour to Mansfield, Ohio, 30 minutes to Akron, or even 15 minutes to the other side of Cleveland to get in to a Warmachine or Malifaux Tournament (the first is far more prevalent than the second). It's all about local areas. You're west coast if I remember correctly, California is a hot bed for tournaments for Games Workshop Games. My complaint is that there is no official Games Workshop Tournaments, run by GW, for GW players, and of GW Players. I can go to AdeptiCon, NoVA, or the BAO and get a fantastic quality 40k tournament, but those aren't games workshop tournaments. The rules are the 40k rules and errata, but there are FAQs, mission primers, and tournament packets made by these people that aren't Games Workshop. That is not to say that they aren't well run events, my local 40k meta used the INAT as a set of rules questions, because it gave us (hopefully) the clear cut rules answers we wanted.

My complaint for GW supported tournaments (other than I suck with 6th ed ) is that every other company I play competitively actively supports and maintains their tournament scene, GW washed their hands of it and haven't looked back. While that's their prerogative, it's certainly not something that makes me feel wanted as a customer (amongst everything else).

 Alfndrate wrote:
I won't argue that 40k is the prevalent beast upon the market, but while you anecdotally say that every store you know of runs 40k tournaments regardless of prize support, every store I frequent, doesn't run 40k tournaments. If I want tournament level 40k, I have to drive to Toledo, Columbus, or Dayton for a tournament.

Interesting. If you're looking for stuff, I have a friend who used to play WHFB in Cleveland (though not that often) and he says a store named "Warzone" hosted 40k and WHFB tournaments there while he was around. Not sure if they still do, but it might be worth looking into.

 Alfndrate wrote:
You're west coast if I remember correctly, California is a hot bed for tournaments for Games Workshop Games.

I wasn't aware of that. My impression has been that we've only had a "real" tournament scene crop up recently and other parts of the US have a much stronger tournament tradition. When I was at school in Minnesota the local stores certainly ran tournaments as often as most stores around here do.

 Alfndrate wrote:
My complaint is that there is no official Games Workshop Tournaments, run by GW, for GW players, and of GW Players. I can go to AdeptiCon, NoVA, or the BAO and get a fantastic quality 40k tournament, but those aren't games workshop tournaments. The rules are the 40k rules and errata, but there are FAQs, mission primers, and tournament packets made by these people that aren't Games Workshop. That is not to say that they aren't well run events, my local 40k meta used the INAT as a set of rules questions, because it gave us (hopefully) the clear cut rules answers we wanted.

My complaint for GW supported tournaments (other than I suck with 6th ed ) is that every other company I play competitively actively supports and maintains their tournament scene, GW washed their hands of it and haven't looked back. While that's their prerogative, it's certainly not something that makes me feel wanted as a customer (amongst everything else).

GW doesn't want a tournament scene because they think it encourages a style of play that they don't like. I wish they had a true tournament circuit too, but when the fans provide so much it really does seem less than necessary.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I won't argue that 40k is the prevalent beast upon the market, but while you anecdotally say that every store you know of runs 40k tournaments regardless of prize support, every store I frequent, doesn't run 40k tournaments. If I want tournament level 40k, I have to drive to Toledo, Columbus, or Dayton for a tournament.

Interesting. If you're looking for stuff, I have a friend who used to play WHFB in Cleveland (though not that often) and he says a store named "Warzone" hosted 40k and WHFB tournaments there while he was around. Not sure if they still do, but it might be worth looking into.

Warzone has mostly switched to Warmachine and Hordes. Though if you've ever been to the Warzone, you'd know why they call it Warzone (hint: It looks like a bomb went off in there). Not a bad place if you're looking for obscure models and games, but playing there is a pain.

 Alfndrate wrote:
You're west coast if I remember correctly, California is a hot bed for tournaments for Games Workshop Games.

I wasn't aware of that. My impression has been that we've only had a "real" tournament scene crop up recently and other parts of the US have a much stronger tournament tradition. When I was at school in Minnesota the local stores certainly ran tournaments as often as most stores around here do.

Well I'm certain, "recently" for you is, "my entire wargaming life" for me. I've only been playing wargames since 2010, and since then it seems as if GW games have a large hold in California for things like the Broadside Bash, the BAO, and I'm sure the nameless number of tournaments that you mentioned you could go to a few posts ago.

GW doesn't want a tournament scene because they think it encourages a style of play that they don't like. I wish they had a true tournament circuit too, but when the fans provide so much it really does seem less than necessary.

But their view on the tournament scene affects the perception of every other aspect of the game. If you have an, "official tournament packet" or kit (like you can buy from PP), and in the packet it says, "All models must be WYSIWYG and have a 3 Color minimum" amongst the other things that you'd find in a tournament packet, then you're bound to see painted armies improve, conversions and kit bashes to get models to a point where they're WYSIWYG and if you tighten up the rules so you don't have to release a day one faq (I'm looking at you tau), or so your stuff doesn't come out with spelling errors, it improves the game as a whole. Look at Warmachine and Hordes, while you might not agree with the aesthetic of the models, or the mechanics of game play, or even the type of people that play it, no one can argue that PP's games have rules that are clear, concise, and easily made for a tournament scene, and yet we see beautifully painted armies, some interesting conversions, and a player base that is growing, not shrinking.

Having a solid tournament scene doesn't mean you're going to get WAAC-os, it means you're actively developing competitive players that in which competition is employed with honorable methods. Such things are a boon to wargaming everywhere, and a benefit to the players, the flgs, and the game company. But when we as players resort to groveling and unprincipled means, when we dash the gaming spirit and healthy interests against the rock of unhealthy competition, it becomes a "snare to the feet" and a detriment to everyone involved. We as players should condemn that form of competition and actively try to avoid it.

GW's view on the tournament scene has varied a lot over the years.

They have run official tournaments and sponsored unofficial ones, and now they seem to be against tournaments.

They have required armies to be painted, and not required them to be painted ('Ard Boyz).

They have encouraged fluffy, non-WAAC play with Comp scoring, and they have encouraged WAAC play ('Ard Boyz).

 Alfndrate wrote:
Well I'm certain, "recently" for you is, "my entire wargaming life" for me. I've only been playing wargames since 2010, and since then it seems as if GW games have a large hold in California for things like the Broadside Bash, the BAO, and I'm sure the nameless number of tournaments that you mentioned you could go to a few posts ago.

Got it. Yeah, for me the BAO is still a newish event, but I definitely take more of a long view.

 Alfndrate wrote:

GW doesn't want a tournament scene because they think it encourages a style of play that they don't like. I wish they had a true tournament circuit too, but when the fans provide so much it really does seem less than necessary.

But their view on the tournament scene affects the perception of every other aspect of the game. If you have an, "official tournament packet" or kit (like you can buy from PP), and in the packet it says, "All models must be WYSIWYG and have a 3 Color minimum" amongst the other things that you'd find in a tournament packet, then you're bound to see painted armies improve, conversions and kit bashes to get models to a point where they're WYSIWYG and if you tighten up the rules so you don't have to release a day one faq (I'm looking at you tau), or so your stuff doesn't come out with spelling errors, it improves the game as a whole. Look at Warmachine and Hordes, while you might not agree with the aesthetic of the models, or the mechanics of game play, or even the type of people that play it, no one can argue that PP's games have rules that are clear, concise, and easily made for a tournament scene, and yet we see beautifully painted armies, some interesting conversions, and a player base that is growing, not shrinking.

I agree with you. I think GW should put together a tournament/organized play program and it would improve the level of play of most 40k players. That said. it might not solve all the problems. 'Ard Boyz for instance actually increased the number of unpainted armies out there because they thought "hardcore" players didn't care about painting and didn't even require a 3-color minimum-- many armies were bare plastic.

Overall I think GW needs to realize that tournament play is another aspect of the hobby that is no lesser or no greater than the rest-- if they cared about tournaments even half as much as they do about painting or modeling I'd be ecstatic. However, that unfortunately does not seem to be their plan at present.

IIRC, 'Ard Boyz was run by GW Trade Sales. So its raison d'etre was different from the GW GTs, which were originally set up by Jervis and then run by their events teams, etc. One pushed product -- however -- and the other was meant to be more of a celebration of the hobby.

 Kingsley wrote:
I agree with you. I think GW should put together a tournament/organized play program and it would improve the level of play of most 40k players. That said. it might not solve all the problems. 'Ard Boyz for instance actually increased the number of unpainted armies out there because they thought "hardcore" players didn't care about painting and didn't even require a 3-color minimum-- many armies were bare plastic.

I think they should put a solid packet together as well. I mean the Throne of Skulls and 'Ard Boyz packets were pretty clear (if I remember) about their rules. Though I do agree the lack of painted armies in 'Ard Boyz was a crying shame, because not only did it purvey this idea that hardcore players didn't care about painting, it also encouraged codex hopping for the latest easymoad army list of the month. With that said, Throne of Skulls had an intense focus on not just painting, but also creative and artististic representations of army lists. So they did have both ends of the spectrum at the same time. If only they could find a happy medium

Overall I think GW needs to realize that tournament play is another aspect of the hobby that is no lesser or no greater than the rest-- if they cared about tournaments even half as much as they do about painting or modeling I'd be ecstatic. However, that unfortunately does not seem to be their plan at present.

Agreed.

 gorgon wrote:
IIRC, 'Ard Boyz was run by GW Trade Sales. So its raison d'etre was different from the GW GTs, which were originally set up by Jervis and then run by their events teams, etc. One pushed product -- however -- and the other was meant to be more of a celebration of the hobby.

However from a player viewpoint, it was just GW having an inconsistent attitude towards the HHHobby, which is a large part of what people are complaining about.

Soo much TL;DR....
Ima out...

As a new comer, everyone has a right to post their opinion.

I understand that veterans of Warhammer and 40k feel hard done by, by GW. In regards to them updating Codexs' forcing upgrades and altering tried and true playstyles. I imagine for some it would be like changing the rules of football or golf every so often just to squeeze some more money out of their long-term customers who want to field a viable and winning army.

Not being silly I recognised that 40k is one of the most expensive hobbies possible in Australia. Particularly when you compare it to the prices that USA and UK enjoy. It comes down to money .v. enjoyment. Some are happy to spend hundreds of dollars a fortnight on cigarettes, and my justification for any of my gaming or hobby habits has always been that. But cost of living v optional hobbies comes into mind, again, particularly when Australians see that the hobby is accessible to almost all levels of financial consumers, and we are paying through the nose.

Naturally people will form logical assumptions on business practices and perspectives will be formed based off how they feel they are treated. Outright, GW has the hardest image to maintain in Australia. Their prices are not justified in any manner and they know that, so they say nothing and remain hopeful that the small amount of market they receive is practical to their needs. But if they spent the time focuses their efforts on lowering costs and product RRP to consumers here, their image would improve and so would profits.

Half the issue is GW, being completely new again, they have the worst image and business practices I've known. To restrict selling their product, removing secondary retailers online who offer discounts is unreasonable to the savvy consumer in this day and age where we want bang for our buck. Especially when you consider the fact that GW no longer have a monopoly on the market. They are simply legally trying to retain the large segment they have, which is slowly slipping through their greedy fingers.

The other half is not the consumer, but the shareholder. Not enough shareholders of GW are paying attention to the market segment and the future of where it is going. They are focusing solely on numbers instead of their consumers happiness which is going to affect their long run profits. Happy customer = more profit. It may mean a slower increase or stagnant increase in share price for a period of time. But that is better than juicing it for a burst of profit on shares, and then slowly dwindling down thereafter.

Of course, I'm no business mogul or economic professional. But a business that has a shop front only capable of being open 7 hours in an 8 hour business day because they only have 1 staff member, is already 1/8th worth of profits. What is GW's perspective on this though? I imagine: "They'll come back, we're the only people selling it".

That won't last. There are other hobbies offering similar game styles and armies. Given enough time, they will surpass GW. And no longer will they be back, if they are even lucky enough to have held their interest, they'll go elsewhere.

I have purchased my army through methods that allowed me to get it at UK prices. The reason I did this was because I cannot support the practices that GW are doing towards their Australian shop fronts. It may mean the closure of them, but I have a feeling it's heading that way when they're manned by 1 staff member only. And with closure of gaming tables and moving towards gaming clubs, why should I pay 150% more for the privilege of being sold and told in the store. Then told to go elsewhere when I want a game.

This way, if GW stores die in Australia, my outlay was practically 1/3rd of what it would have been paying AU prices. And if necessary I can always shift across to another hobby TT with minimum loss of investment.

I am a newbie. And this is my thought and process. And if I can already see a bleak future for GW, and my practices minimise GW profit in Australia, but save myself money in the long run which, I would most likely invest into GW in future codex updates. Why can't GW be honest about prices worldwide and the direction of the company, stop being greedy, and start making the consumer happy instead of focusing solely on shareholder happiness.

Sadly because the shareholders are the same people running the company :( I dare to think of what they will do once their pockets are stuffed full of cash and the company has no capital reinvested in it.

Im telling ya guys--

GW tanks, sells its IP to FFG so they can make the RPG stuff and then Rick Priestly buys the miniature rights--problem solved!!

I remeber someone saying once, "the more you tighten your fist, the more will slip through your fingers". Now we're did I hear that?