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 Exergy wrote:

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Well, they should.

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

Well, they should.

Exactly. The failure of one Codex to offer builds is not an argument for other Codices to fail in the exact same way.

Bitter Dark Angels player here.

I think what the SM codex needs is to take anything good about the DA codex and make it better.

Lets do all the devastator, whirlwind, tac-squad, librarian point decreases and maybe drop it a point or two lower than that. Etc. Etc.

I'm feeling that I will be using the SM codex for my DA army again sometime next year.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Heavy Support:
New predator variant with better armor

Predators are already AV13/11/10. A Predator with better armour is called a Land Raider.

 -Loki- wrote:

Predators are already AV13/11/10. A Predator with better armour is called a Land Raider.

Well, they could get 12 on their side armour, not that it is needed.

However, Vindicators really should get AV12 on the sides. It is a tank with a short ranged weapon with weak side armour. And most importantly, Vindicator's sides actually look much more heavily armoured than other Rhino variants', they have that whole extra armour piece.

Funny that in any other threads everyone is complaining about AV14 vehicles, and when you get into this thread with space marines there is a few that wish their AV13 was AV14.... not like picking down armor was hard enough.

( Reference that "Everyone" is those complaining about the Tau Rails got nerfed so they couldnt kill AV14 that easily anymore, also a disclaimer that this is a half-joke on the irony )

This is my first post. So I hope this is a suitably good one.


HQ

CM
Wargear that grants EW (even if it's 60+ points)
CM specific warlord trait list, or ability to select warlord trait

Captain
Company specific rules as stated above. Something like:

First company - can take Tactical termies as HS and assault termies as FA
Battle company – one less Elite slot may take an additional HS or FA
Tactical Reserve- one less HS and FA two more troop
Assault Reserve – Assault squads / Bike squads are troop
Heavy Reserve – Dev's / Predators are troop
Scout company – one scout squad gets +1BS, +1WS, and +1ld to all models

Chaplain
Adamantium Will
Chapter Reli (one per army) models within 12” get a buff

Honor Guard
2W
more wargear options (combat shields, Jump packs for jump pack CM, bikes for bike CM)


Elites

Raise point costs of termies and give tactical termies BS2 snap shots


FA

Give bike squads the option of either taking two additional bikes or an attack bike (this always seemed odd to me)


Give vanguard vets the option to take two special weapons for full squad


I think all this chapter tactics SC stuff is a mess. In some ways some of the SC's are less balanced then stuff that could be done with the traits system (I'm looking at you Vulkan) and while I would like to see something like the traits stuff come back so that more of the different chapters could be viable, I also see a lot of potential for abuse. Whatever the solution to that problem is, I would hope GW would see the sense (and profitability) in releasing a “Chaos Legions” supplement like the “Craftworld Eldar” book so that CSM players wouldn't get the short end of the stick.

Space Marines could use a couple things, really.

Snipers that can actually shoot.

4++ invul saves on their tanks, 3++ especially for the Land Raiders.

Sternguard vengeance rounds should be AP2.

Flying Terminators.

Add Calgar's special rule to just choose whether or not to pass morale tests to ATSKNF, and then let Calgar choose whether the enemy's morale tests pass or fail.

Make Relic Blades ignore armor and invul saves and gives +2 to initiative.

An upgrade to allow their flyers to come in turn two every time.

Heavy flamers that auto-wound entire horde units in overwatch.

New Psychic power that allows you to reroll hits, wounds and pen table results until you get what you want and denies the other player any rerolls that they may benefit from. Call it Null Storm. Also shoots down enemy fliers.

Allow Tac units to upgrade their power armor to artificer for 2pts per model.

A new HQ choice that gives a roll, at start of the game, to auto-win the game, with an upgrade that allows re-rolls of that roll, and obviously, he'd be an Ultramarine.

No, but, really, what the SM codex needs is more randomness. We don't have enough randomness yet in sixth edition.

Zen2k wrote:
Space Marines could use a couple things, really.

Snipers that can actually shoot.

4++ invul saves on their tanks, 3++ especially for the Land Raiders.

Sternguard vengeance rounds should be AP2.

Flying Terminators.

Add Calgar's special rule to just choose whether or not to pass morale tests to ATSKNF, and then let Calgar choose whether the enemy's morale tests pass or fail.

Make Relic Blades ignore armor and invul saves and gives +2 to initiative.

An upgrade to allow their flyers to come in turn two every time.

Heavy flamers that auto-wound entire horde units in overwatch.

New Psychic power that allows you to reroll hits, wounds and pen table results until you get what you want and denies the other player any rerolls that they may benefit from. Call it Null Storm. Also shoots down enemy fliers.

Allow Tac units to upgrade their power armor to artificer for 2pts per model.

A new HQ choice that gives a roll, at start of the game, to auto-win the game, with an upgrade that allows re-rolls of that roll, and obviously, he'd be an Ultramarine.

No, but, really, what the SM codex needs is more randomness. We don't have enough randomness yet in sixth edition.

When I started reading your post, I thought you were serious, but now I realize

Also: Calgar should have a 2+, 2++, FnP (2+), ten wounds, EW, it will not die (2+). Because spess muhreen heroes can't die.

Cheaper TAC marines would be the biggest change that would help the codex. I'd expect this and across the board point drops on support units like Bikers/Devastators/Assault Marines. Make Legion of the Damned worth a damn.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Devastators adjusted in cost downward heavily, Vulkan's ability re-worked/removed/apply only to his own unit/etc, AA missiles on Whirlwind, TH/SS termi's upp'd in points and ranged terminator weapons dropped in points, points drop on tanks and especially Venerable dreads, obviously adjust assault/tac squads like DA's.

What is wrong with Vulkan he is fine as he is and needs no adjustment. TH/SS termis are at a good pt range compared to other armies. Have you been flamed/melta to death too much?

lynxstrife wrote:
What is wrong with Vulkan he is fine as he is and needs no adjustment.

He's not only a force multiplier, he's the best force multiplier in the book by far, and doesn't pay for it. He takes already no brainer weapons (flamers, meltaguns and thunderhammers) and simply makes them better for free.

lynxstrife wrote:
TH/SS termis are at a good pt range compared to other armies

Says someone who hasn't played other armies. T4, 2+/3++ saves, S8 AP2 attacks. While they strike last, they have the best durability in the game - they don't care about striking last. They are, flat out, one of the best assault units in the game, and while they're almost 50pts each, no other army has an assault unit with that durability or offensive punch for anywhere near as low as that price with the exception of Grey Knights. Throw in Vulkan, like anyone with half a brain that knows what synergy looks like would, and you've just boosted its offensive capabilities without even adding anything to the squad.

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

But it should have, and the mistakes of one codex doesn't mean others should be held back on account of that.

 -Loki- wrote:

lynxstrife wrote:
What is wrong with Vulkan he is fine as he is and needs no adjustment.

He's not only a force multiplier, he's the best force multiplier in the book by far, and doesn't pay for it. He takes already no brainer weapons (flamers, meltaguns and thunderhammers) and simply makes them better for free.

lynxstrife wrote:
TH/SS termis are at a good pt range compared to other armies

Says someone who hasn't played other armies. T4, 2+/3++ saves, S8 AP2 attacks. While they strike last, they have the best durability in the game - they don't care about striking last. They are, flat out, one of the best assault units in the game, and while they're almost 50pts each, no other army has an assault unit with that durability or offensive punch for anywhere near as low as that price with the exception of Grey Knights. Throw in Vulkan, like anyone with half a brain that knows what synergy looks like would, and you've just boosted its offensive capabilities without even adding anything to the squad.

190pts for a special chara is about normal compared to new SM books like DA or Chaos. Compared to other SC in the book I rarely ever see him if at all ever. You see wolves,BA ect more then codex then C:SM.

You know what armies i play? I play necrons learned of off CSM/Salamanders and moved on.

Are SS/TH Termies good in assault yes are they the best no. Seen them eatten alive by the a termgaunt? the melee roach/nid alot. Seen them utterly crushed by daemons of all colors and flavors to the point i sold them. Even seen 1 killed by 1 firewarrior and that was epic and made the marine player almost cry.

But it still sounds like there are a few salamanders in your area that are rather good at beating you. Don't cry nerf when there is no need just adjust your tactics and move on.

Cheers!

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Codex Space Marines needs to have options to make your force a Salamanders army, Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and another chapter that operates a little bit different than Ultramarines

because chaos has the ability to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

O wait

But it should have, and the mistakes of one codex doesn't mean others should be held back on account of that.

I really don't understand why people are having a hard time making a Traitor Legion list with the new CSM codex. Its truly not that difficult, especially for the ones listed above. The most challenging builds would be Alpha Legion and Night Lords, but for AL, all you really need to do is use a counts-as with Huron, and build a standard tactical list heavy with cultists and there you go. Night Lords are more of a challenge since Warp Talons take up the same slot as Raptors. Putting WT in the Elite section would have remedied this, but in a standard sized battle, 2-3 full units of either Raptors or Warp Talons would be more than enough to get the point across. Just because a Legion favors a particular style of warfare doesn't mean that's all they ever field. Night Lords had basic tac marines and terminator squads after all. They weren't an entire legion of Jump Assault.

Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are NOT difficult to build at all, and the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle were made specifically for those legions, you just won't be able to spam heldrakes if you try to stay true. Any of the Chaos Undivided legions are perfectly buildable with the new codex, its just that people want to spam the most effective units. In truth, none of the Legion specific builds would be considered "optimal" with the competative crowd anyway, because none of them would generally call for 3 heldrakes.

Back to the original subject, I really don't see a large oval monster in store for the C:SM. Not sure why everybody thinks that's the standard now. The first 6th edition codex had 2, and the fourth had 1. The 2nd and 3rd had none.

I foresee points and option loadouts matching the basic units from the DA codex, but none of the more DA specific stuff. As a result, I don't see assault marines really getting any better, just a point or two cheaper.

I also foresee some form of chapter traits in store, how its implemented I'm not sure, but I seem to recall an old rumor about chapter banners that can be purchased that will have different chapter traits.

Rumors abound about some sort of midway point between terminators and Dreads. I'm okay with this, as it might be that one unit that really brings some life to the stale SM builds. Not sure how they will write it into the fluff though. Hopefully they will have some experimental weaponry available to them.

I'd like to see Vanguard and Sternguard get a points decrease. Given the prevalance of AP3 or better, they really tend to not be very survivable. Also, taking a LR as a dedicated transport would be nice too.

Another Predator build is probably in the works, and possibly another LR build. No new flyers should be expected, although I wouldn't be shocked if they allow squadrons of stormtalons.

The marine Codex is in good shape really. The major needs as many have said is some minor tweaking of unit costs to bring them in line with the current Dark Angel costs.

Tactical Marines need to be one special weapon option in the base squad and if they have 10 men they can take a second special weapon or a heavy weapon.

TH/SS is a powerful unit and could use a points increase to balance them vs the other termie options.

I'd love to see Apothacaries as a 1-3 per slot IC elite choice like in the Blood Angel Codex. Let me spread some healers into my other units instead of only in command squads. Speaking of which let command squads match the Captain's movement options (Jump Pack, Bike) or Termie armor if the captain is wearing terminator armor. And make Captains playable instead of a joke compared to the Librarians or special characters.

Give Whilwind AA and a points drop.

As others have said a return to a more balanced traits system using the Chapter Tactics template to build non Ultramarine chapters.

What do they need to be perfect? Simple. More chaos influence!

Ps. Papa Nurgle says hi.

needs more cowbell.

I agree with what most folks have posted. I think a cost reduction to Tactical Marines is a must to pull them more in line with what DA are today.

I am ok with TH/SS Terminators at their current costs. I have played with and against them and found their cost on par.

I personally feel that some of the IC are not assigned a proper cost given their benefits. (Some need to come down just a pinch while others need to come up just a little)

One of the things that I would like to see more of is distinction within the codex. My feelings are that each SM codex has multiple things that set them apart from other SM codices. Sure there are other heroes you can take from other chapters in the codex, but something more than that.

Just my two cents.

Cpt of the 8th.
As lord of the reserve, all assault company he can take a jump pack, bike or land speeder. Any squad he joins gets skilled rider plus hit & run. Fast attack units are now scoring, Troops are not.

Cpt of the 9th.
As lord of the reserve, all fire support company he can be equiped with either a las cannon or hvy bolter. Any heavy support squad he joins gains Relentless & Tank Hunter. Heavy support units are now scoring, Troops are not.

In either case Tactical squads are a 0-1 choice.

Cheaper Tac termies. Hammernators 5 points more a piece.

Cheaper Rhino upgrades. I think Rhinos are what there supposed to be but they do need a little love.

Melta guns for assault sqds, and cheaper upgrades.

Divination for the Libs.

 Eldarain wrote:
I want to see a return to the "make your own chapter" strengths and weaknesses system.

It needs to be done better though. The old one was far to simplistic with some obviously powerful strengths and lame downsides you'd hardly notice.

^^^^^^^^^

They could nerf the heck out of the book for all I care, I love force customization.

I miss IG doctrines too.

Something on an oval base. Perhaps two things on oval bases.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Something on an oval base. Perhaps two things on oval bases.

An oval base on an oval base?

The number 1 thing Marines need in 6th is a reduction in anti MEQ units in other books.

I always find Marine on Marine fights the most fun, because there are very few AP2 or AP3 weapons throughout the whole army, or rather, whole squads of such weapons.

Facing Guard? Multiple veteran squads with 3 plasmas each, plus pie plates. Facing Chaos? Havok squads with plasma or melta, Oblits, and Chaos Lords with 100+ AP3 attacks. In 4th I used to run 3 Fire Dragon units and a Dire Avengers unit...if I had first turn I'd Fish of Fury and take out half an enemy's army, if they were marines. ( remember when starcannons were king?)

I could go on, but really...the biggest problem with 40K and the Marine book really is how other army books are structured to take on Marines. They should instead be written to take on what should be the most numerous armies are, GEQ. Then you would see Marines return to an elite level and play like their fluff. Sure getting hit with 50+ lasguns is almost the same as 9 plasma guns, but at least you get to roll saves. Make power armor worth something instead of 823708234092 ways to negate it.

General Hobbs wrote:


The number 1 thing Marines need in 6th is a reduction in anti MEQ units in other books.

I always find Marine on Marine fights the most fun, because there are very few AP2 or AP3 weapons throughout the whole army, or rather, whole squads of such weapons.

Facing Guard? Multiple veteran squads with 3 plasmas each, plus pie plates. Facing Chaos? Havok squads with plasma or melta, Oblits, and Chaos Lords with 100+ AP3 attacks. In 4th I used to run 3 Fire Dragon units and a Dire Avengers unit...if I had first turn I'd Fish of Fury and take out half an enemy's army, if they were marines. ( remember when starcannons were king?)

I could go on, but really...the biggest problem with 40K and the Marine book really is how other army books are structured to take on Marines. They should instead be written to take on what should be the most numerous armies are, GEQ. Then you would see Marines return to an elite level and play like their fluff. Sure getting hit with 50+ lasguns is almost the same as 9 plasma guns, but at least you get to roll saves. Make power armor worth something instead of 823708234092 ways to negate it.

The most numerous armies are MEQ.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


The number 1 thing Marines need in 6th is a reduction in anti MEQ units in other books.

I always find Marine on Marine fights the most fun, because there are very few AP2 or AP3 weapons throughout the whole army, or rather, whole squads of such weapons.

Facing Guard? Multiple veteran squads with 3 plasmas each, plus pie plates. Facing Chaos? Havok squads with plasma or melta, Oblits, and Chaos Lords with 100+ AP3 attacks. In 4th I used to run 3 Fire Dragon units and a Dire Avengers unit...if I had first turn I'd Fish of Fury and take out half an enemy's army, if they were marines. ( remember when starcannons were king?)

I could go on, but really...the biggest problem with 40K and the Marine book really is how other army books are structured to take on Marines. They should instead be written to take on what should be the most numerous armies are, GEQ. Then you would see Marines return to an elite level and play like their fluff. Sure getting hit with 50+ lasguns is almost the same as 9 plasma guns, but at least you get to roll saves. Make power armor worth something instead of 823708234092 ways to negate it.

The most numerous armies are MEQ.

I feel for GH, the last two games I played in I never got to make any Saves with my MEQs. I don't know what salution is, but it is starting to be a problem.

Not in the fluff they aren't, which is the problem. There is a disconnect between fluff and game rules. If the 40K universe were real and you were an Imperial Guard army, you'd face traitor guard, tyranids, orks, tau and eldar the vast majority of the time. So while yeah, a vet squad might have those plasmas to face MC, most of the time you'd be carrying flamers and heavy bolters.

But in the game, because MEQ is so popular, the designers have felt the need to design so many units per army that are points/cost efficient to ot only take on marines, but other armies. Cheap plasma, missile launchers etc.

GK for a time found a way around this by wound allocation shenanigans with Draigo....

 juraigamer wrote:
I just want an iron hands guy in the book. Just give me that and I'm happy.

This. This. 1000x this. The iron hands have never had proper representation in the SM codex, and they are a first founding legion. Their chapter make up is unique. they have good fluff and would be a cool army to see on the table top.

 Havok210 wrote:
I agree with what most folks have posted. I think a cost reduction to Tactical Marines is a must to pull them more in line with what DA are today...

I see this quit a bit:
DA tacticals with 10men, 1 vet sarg, ML, MG, Rhino = 210
SM tactical with 10 men, 1 sarg, ML, MG, Rhino = 210

And I'd argue the SM have the better Special Rules

Iron Hands