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Made in us
Drone without a Controller





Hey yall, with the advent of the new tau codex, my single army is boosted and doing better than it ever has before. That being said, i was saddened to see a lack of new units in the codex, and I was thinking on starting a second army to 1.) create a decent "ally" for my Tau, and 2.) add some variation that my new tau codex lacks, in order to stave off ennui. Luckily for ol' Materia_Master, my two favorite armies after Tau are the Space Marines and Eldar (IG is tied with them, but I don't have THAT kind of money to start up one of them), which happen to be Battle Brothers with my Tau.

With my Tau, I created my own Cadre, and I enjoy having my own fluff behind them, but I was thinking how cool it would be if my second army would be an actual canon army.

That being said, what Space Marine army would work with Tau? Some chapter that could/would be in the same general area of the Tau Empire (Ultima Segmentum, or as far as the Eastern Fringe), and what chapter would actually allow themselves to fight alongside the tau against Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and Chaos Space Marines. I know the question is two-fold, but I need an army that would actually exist in the same area, and isn't too "PURGE THE XENOS!".

The same question really applies for the Eldar as well, what Eldar would be in the general area, and what Eldar would be ok with working with the intrepid young race?

I've been scouring the lexicanum, and I'm not really coming up with any answers.

At the very least, I figure that the Ultramarines could, perhaps the Mentors, since they're all about studying technology... As for the Eldar, I have no idea.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Holland , Vermont

Ig : used as Tau Gue'la are my main Allied force.

But I am thinking on some elder just for the fun of painting and modeling them, and any craftworld other than maybe Biel-tan, they are kinda nasty to any non elder.

Could just convert some exodite elder and say they were discovered upon a world stumbled upon by the Tau.

Oh and I will never use space marines as a Tau ally or vis a versa , just does not feel right, and I have Marines Malevolent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 15:21:10


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Made in us
Drone without a Controller





I'd use IG if not for two reasons:
Personal reason: I simply don't have the cash to start an IG army. I loev me my IG, but my wallet weeps.

Crunch reason: For some reason IG isn't considered a Battle Brother, and although I love the idea of a Gue'la army, It would be wierd that my armies wouldn't sinc together.

 
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander






 Materia_Master wrote:
I'd use IG if not for two reasons:
Personal reason: I simply don't have the cash to start an IG army. I loev me my IG, but my wallet weeps.

Crunch reason: For some reason IG isn't considered a Battle Brother, and although I love the idea of a Gue'la army, It would be wierd that my armies wouldn't sinc together.

I think it's weird that Marines are considered BBs, not that IG aren't. The only thing that should force the Tau and IoM to forget their animosity is in the face of a more immediate threat to both of them. Something like an Ork Waaagh!, Tyrannid invasion, or basically a large enough presence of any other force. Before and after the immediate threat is delt with there will be no love lost, and during they'd be willing - maybe even respectful - allies, but I don't think any Imperial faction would ever be Battle-Brothers with a non-Imperial faction.

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Holland , Vermont

the only BB I could see from the IoM is IG to reflect tau aux, even elder is a streatch, personally I think the whole ally idea needs a big rethink, with restrictions on which individual unit in each codex is available for a ally detachment, maybe even base it on the level of the ally (BB and such).

If you are interested in my P&M for my Unified Corp Tau check here ----http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/282731.page
My planetary profile and background story for my Tau is here------http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/351631.page
War Field Boss Marshul Grimdariun's Panzuh Korps http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/353354.page
Tau Prototypes Technical readouts and Data sharing (for all Tau players )http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412232.page 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Anfauglir wrote:
 Materia_Master wrote:
I'd use IG if not for two reasons:
Personal reason: I simply don't have the cash to start an IG army. I loev me my IG, but my wallet weeps.

Crunch reason: For some reason IG isn't considered a Battle Brother, and although I love the idea of a Gue'la army, It would be wierd that my armies wouldn't sinc together.

I think it's weird that Marines are considered BBs, not that IG aren't. The only thing that should force the Tau and IoM to forget their animosity is in the face of a more immediate threat to both of them. Something like an Ork Waaagh!, Tyrannid invasion, or basically a large enough presence of any other force. Before and after the immediate threat is delt with there will be no love lost, and during they'd be willing - maybe even respectful - allies, but I don't think any Imperial faction would ever be Battle-Brothers with a non-Imperial faction.


Spoiler:


Materia_Master wrote:I'd use IG if not for two reasons:
Personal reason: I simply don't have the cash to start an IG army. I loev me my IG, but my wallet weeps.

Crunch reason: For some reason IG isn't considered a Battle Brother, and although I love the idea of a Gue'la army, It would be wierd that my armies wouldn't sinc together.


Neither army really has bonuses that would benefit the other. Most of the Tau bonuses specifically say 'Only C: Tau units may benefit'; unless you were going to take Eldar I would be taking an ally to plug gaps in your list. IG can provide several things... manpower for objective claiming, artillery, hellhounds, AV14, flyers that aren't arbitrary. That said, the IG aren't going to be providing much in the way of an assault deterrent, save for throwing giant tarpits at the enemy.

Otherwise, you might look at that image above and think "What if a whole SM chapter defected to the Tau for my fluff?" or "What if I model the SM allies to be unmanned ground combat vehicles (drones with legs and bolters)"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 17:15:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Holland , Vermont

if part of the problem with cost for IG is troopers then check these guys out.

http://dreamforge-games.com/catalog/

I have some I am planning on using for a Gue'la aux army of IG.

They are a bit cheaper than GW, and in my opinion, look even nicer.




If you are interested in my P&M for my Unified Corp Tau check here ----http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/282731.page
My planetary profile and background story for my Tau is here------http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/351631.page
War Field Boss Marshul Grimdariun's Panzuh Korps http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/353354.page
Tau Prototypes Technical readouts and Data sharing (for all Tau players )http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412232.page 
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller





 Anfauglir wrote:
 Materia_Master wrote:
I'd use IG if not for two reasons:
Personal reason: I simply don't have the cash to start an IG army. I loev me my IG, but my wallet weeps.

Crunch reason: For some reason IG isn't considered a Battle Brother, and although I love the idea of a Gue'la army, It would be wierd that my armies wouldn't sinc together.

I think it's weird that Marines are considered BBs, not that IG aren't. The only thing that should force the Tau and IoM to forget their animosity is in the face of a more immediate threat to both of them. Something like an Ork Waaagh!, Tyrannid invasion, or basically a large enough presence of any other force. Before and after the immediate threat is delt with there will be no love lost, and during they'd be willing - maybe even respectful - allies, but I don't think any Imperial faction would ever be Battle-Brothers with a non-Imperial faction.



I think there's a duality to the SM/IG allies issue.

On the educated/philisophical front:
The more lucid and reasonable Space Marine chapters recognize honor and tactical understanding philosophy of "the enemy of the enemy is my friend", and in a galaxy full of hungry bugs, undead robots, raging plantmen, and bizzaro marines, the small shooty armies are probably the best guys they're dealing with. Space Marines are the best of the best, warrior monks, who (should) value wisdom along with ferver.
The IG however, are fully absorbed into the Commisar-driven socio-political agenda, that all aliens are bad, abnormals are tollerable, and humans are the only thing worth anything. Allying with Tau from that perspective seems almost traitorous.

HOWEVER, on the flipside:

On the practical/fluff-as-written front:
Space Marines are the epitome of humanities drive and conquest. They embody the fiery independence that Humans are known for, and, you know, "PURGE THE XENOS" and all that. The may think the Tau are honerable, but only in the most dire of circumstances should a Space Marine chapter ever need to ask for xeno assistance. Also, Space Marine chapters range from calm, honorable and tactical, to semi-frothing wardogs only marginally more restrained than Khorne Berzerkers... your milage may vary.
While as the IG are opposite, they're scrappy-as-all-get-out. They do what they have to do because they need to do it to survive. Use forbiddon technology? Just don't get caught. Converse with traitors/heretics/xenos? If it prevents anihilation, absolutely, at least, for the immediate time being. Millions in the Imperial Guard have probably never even seen an alien, so if their choices were to die a horrible Tyranid death, or temporarily ally with little blue men with sweet guns, it should be a really easy choice. Also, there is the matter of the fluff where entire human planets have pledged themselves to the Greater Good. So from that standpoint, IG should be MORE willing than Space Marines.

Depending on what angle you choose to view it, it may alter how the alliance chart would work with Tau and the Imperium. Now it really wouldn't change anything with the SoB or GK, since they're pretty deep on the zealous side, but vanilla marines and IG are malleable.

That being said, with IG as "allies of convenience" and not "battle brothers", I just can't bring myself to start such a huge investment without it meshing as well as I think it should.

But back to my original question, any chapters or craftworlds in the area? I think I found one with the Eldar, the lexicanum says that Craftworld Lugganath is in that sector, and they have a reputation as Renagades...
I'm digging the idea of the Mentors too, but I'm really not the best with SM or Eldar fluff.
Opinions?

Edits for spelling...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 17:34:58


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




"I have followed the myriad potential futures of the Tau with great interest. Though barely even striplings compared to us, I feel a strange protectiveness towards them. In time I believe they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls."
--Eldrad Ulthran

The Eldar have a deep interest in the Tau, and both races are quite diplomatic, so an alliance between them is practically demanded. Eldar also synergize well with the Tau combat philosophy, while bringing CC abilities to plug in the gaps that Tau have. They can also bring in psychic protection to an army that really lacks that. If you can't find an official craftworld, you can make one up. There's nothing wrong with making your own fluff; maybe some craftworld was hit by a Hivefleet, the Tau managed to save the place, and now the craftworld is a good friend of so-and-so Sept.

Space Marines don't really mesh well with Tau from what I've read. If you've ever read Fire Warrior, you can see that an alliance with smurfs tends to be a bad decision for the Tau, and as a practical race they would have realized that. I really don't get why they are BB's.

What bonuses are you missing out on by allying with IG that you could be gaining if they were brosefs? I, personally, would have thought IG were BB's with everyone, since Chaos have analogues to everything in the army (demagogues versus commissars, etc.) they're allied with Tau, they work together with Eldar multiple times, etc.
   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept





My view of the SM is that they would not ally with Tau because the SM are extremely xenophobic, and while not stupid, very rigid in their core beliefs.

The Eldar do whatever advances their cause and I could see them assisting the Tau even if the reasons are not known to the Tau.

I could see IG allying with Tau, if the Tau had captured and converted a former IoM planet. However, I would not include any commissars in the allied force.

   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Jacksonville Florida

JWhex wrote:
My view of the SM is that they would not ally with Tau because the SM are extremely xenophobic, and while not stupid, very rigid in their core beliefs.


Generalizations are a fluff wizards favorite play toy. Not all Space Marine chapters have the same beliefs and not all are as xenophobic as say the Black Templars. There are numerous instances of Space Marines fighting alongside alien races against a common enemy some of which are even mentioned in the Space Marine codex, Marneus Calgar even fought alongside the Tau. As a matter of necessity there are some Space Marines that would fight along side the Tau.

As for Eldar I came up with an idea that I personally like in that my DIY Craftworld believe that the Eldars time is finished and that it is their duty to help guide the younger races in order to prevent their own mistakes from being repeated. While not subservient to the Tau they have allied themselves with them and will often work in conjunction with the Empire and occasionally the Imperium on military campaigns as well as forwarning them of dangers that the Eldar have forseen. The Craftworld benefits from the protection of the Tau Empire while subtley guiding/teaching them about things that they would normally have trouble understanding (the warp for instance) as well as fighting alongside them. The Eldar who most often fight alongside the Tau are volunteers under the command of an Eldar known as an Ethnarch within the Tau Empire and are often gifted with Tau technology due to long periods away from their Craftworld.

 
   
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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

I'm convinced that half the combinations on the Allies chart are just weird and unfluffy, and this is but one example. Even assuming the angle that you've got a Chapter of Reasonable Marines who get along just swell with Tau, why is it that it doesn't go for Eldar also?

OP: I'm with Soo'Vah'Cha in that Imperial Guard are the most likely allies, going by the background thus far released by GW. Second choice would be Eldar.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080420071331/http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/tau-auxiliaries/

Keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to shell out so much money if you don't want to. Just keep the Allies section small, that way you can spruce up your Cadre with a neat little addition of a few squads of auxiliaries. They wouldn't be sufficient to be run as an independent army, but they would surely fit in nicely from a background PoV. With a unified colour scheme, you could really make the Tau Empire look multi-species that way. Also, if you ask nicely, opponents who are aware of Tau background might just allow you to field IG as Battle Brothers.
   
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Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

As long as it's not Necrons. Every time I've read fluff between those two, it seems like the Necrons are slaughtering them.

I'm sure there are a few eccentric Overlords out there, but none of the fluff has shown them being kind to the Tau yet.

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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm convinced that half the combinations on the Allies chart are just weird and unfluffy, and this is but one example. Even assuming the angle that you've got a Chapter of Reasonable Marines who get along just swell with Tau, why is it that it doesn't go for Eldar also?

It's actually pretty easy to explain why Eldar aren't Battle Brothers.
The Space Marines know that the Eldar always have an agenda of their own, and have no problems turning their guns on the Astartes when the battles are over.

With the Tau, they might be aliens but at least they don't stab you in the back.
   
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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

And where would this "knowledge" come from? Is there some sort of Imperial study on joint operations between Space Marines and Tau, and Space Marines and Eldar? Do we have a list of these battles or is this something we'd have to make up ourselves to find an excuse for this chart?

Nope, sorry. Don't buy it. Not with the chart also being weird in other places, and not with Vanilla Marines being supposed to represent a whole range of opinions (this alone should necessitate picking something in the middle rather than any extreme).
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Jacksonville Florida

 Lynata wrote:
And where would this "knowledge" come from? Is there some sort of Imperial study on joint operations between Space Marines and Tau, and Space Marines and Eldar? Do we have a list of these battles or is this something we'd have to make up ourselves to find an excuse for this chart?

Nope, sorry. Don't buy it. Not with the chart also being weird in other places, and not with Vanilla Marines being supposed to represent a whole range of opinions (this alone should necessitate picking something in the middle rather than any extreme).


Ordos Xenos. And I'm pretty sure someone could compile a list of these battles if they had the time, they do exist.

 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




For what it's worth, I also think that part of the problem with the Alliance Matrix is the vast differentiation between Battle Brothers <--> Allies of Convenience and the relatively small differentiation between Allies of Convenience <---> Desparate Allies.

Going from "being able to cast blessings on one another, having IC's join each others' squads, etc." to "you are now ENEMIES who simply don't SHOOT each other ... YET!" is a bit of a stretch. Especially when taking into account that the difference between AoC and Desperate is a very slight increased paranoia as reflected in "One Eye Open."

They really should have included a category in between Battle Brothers / Allies of Convenience ... something like "Strange Bedfellows" where the units do not interact with each other as "Enemies" (could still benefit from beneficial effects, psychic abilities, etc.) but perhaps not quite so buddy-buddy that their IC's are running around in each others' squads, etc.

That would have given them some much needed flexibility to explain pairings like Tau / SM and Eldar / SM. I think both of those would (in actuality) be somewhere in between Battle Brothers and Allies of Convenience, but because of the lack of an actual definition of such a relationship, both wind up in somewhat strange ends of the spectrum. I have a hard time seeing Tau as "Battle Brothers," but I also have a problem seeing Eldar as "always enemies we just aren't shooting yet."

Regarding the Tau <---> Eldar relationship, however, I think it's one of the stronger, fluff-friendly pairings in the entire matrix. The two armies not only work well together mechanically, but they also have fairly compelling reasons to cooperate with one another from lore perspectives. I think most Craftworlds would be neutral to friendly with Tau, particularly as evinced by Eldrad's expressed sentiments on them.

There is, of course, also the debate about whether or not the Eldar might have meddled in some way with the Tau to help spark their sudden, meteoric rise in technological advancement and surprise appearance of Ethereals, etc. (mind you, I've not yet read the new codex, so no idea what still stands or has been retconned there).
   
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Solahma






RVA

The Eldar are an older race than humanity. They once ruled the galaxy, more or less, and even if they will never do so again that alone makes them a greater threat to the Imperium than the Tau, a nascent race taking its first steps into the wider galaxy.

   
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Been Around the Block




Also, the Eldar have a much longer history with the Imperium, and both races don't forget the betrayals and slights they've accumulated over the years.
   
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germany,bavaria

Tau basically have the Allies they want as "allies" of their Empire already, Kroot and Vespids.

The ally matrix seems like a pure game-mechanic because the first 4 codices of 6th didn't change anything to make this matrix work.

But if you really want a small detachment, it should be easy to add most of the 'forces of order' as temporary allies.
I would deem the Space Marines as just putting the non-imperials on the "to do list" , so real alliances are unlikely. Was the duty of all flavors of SM, even the traitors, to ensure the Galaxy belongs to mankind.
Eldar are also complicated, they are pretty self-centered and thus a very temporary ally. Well known backstabbers.

A detachment of allies to add if feeling like it, go for.
An army of 2 detachments of fixed allies, isn't working so well except for allies who are already getting along because they got the same Clubcard, like all the Imperials or chaos mortals and creatures of the warp or Eldar of high or dark flavor.

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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Ordos Xenos. And I'm pretty sure someone could compile a list of these battles if they had the time, they do exist.
Somehow I doubt the Inquisition keeps accurate and unbiased tabs on alien species. And at least for the Marine Codex, the only battles involving SM and Tau were against one another, but not together against a common enemy.
What examples are you referring to?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 19:17:43


 
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander






I think we can all agree that the allies matrix exists as a gameplay mechanic and that's pretty much it, as it makes little overall sense lore-wise. I maintain that any Imperial/non-Imperial matching would never, ever be anything more than AoC - i.e. "oh look a much bigger threat turned up and if we don't focus on it together we're all going to die" kind of scenario.

Back to the topic, I think Eldar are a sound choice for you, TC. Both from a fluff and a tabletop perspective. Tau are shooty gunline with pants close combat and no psychic power, Eldar can fill those holes quite effectively.

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Just had a look at the galaxy map, and Iyanden craftworld is actually pretty damn close to the Tau Empire. Given the proximity of Hive Fleet Kraken, and the desperation of the Iyanden where they would much rather say ally with Tau than have to resurrect more Wraithguard and risk losing Eldar lives as well, that's some prime set up for an alliance right there.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok





I really wish they had made IG battle brothers with Chaos and Tau to represent renegades and Gue'vesa, respectively. Tau should have no other battle brothers because everyone thinks they're weird and creepy.

On a mostly unrelated note, I was very disappointed that the new codex didn't include any new tales of hilarious Tau naivete (such as their first encounters with Necrons and Dark Eldar).
   
Made in gb
Wing Commander






Bludbaff wrote:
I really wish they had made IG battle brothers with Chaos and Tau to represent renegades and Gue'vesa, respectively.

Doesn't really make sense, though. Better just to have traitor guard and gue'vesa entries in their respective codex. Both are exceptions to Guard forces, not the rule.

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept





 Anfauglir wrote:
I think we can all agree that the allies matrix exists as a gameplay mechanic and that's pretty much it,


Actually it is a model selling mechanic, and that's pretty much it.

   
Made in gb
Wing Commander






JWhex wrote:
 Anfauglir wrote:
I think we can all agree that the allies matrix exists as a gameplay mechanic and that's pretty much it,


Actually it is a model selling mechanic, and that's pretty much it.

Well, sure. But what isn't, when it all boils down?

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





 Anfauglir wrote:
Bludbaff wrote:
I really wish they had made IG battle brothers with Chaos and Tau to represent renegades and Gue'vesa, respectively.

Doesn't really make sense, though. Better just to have traitor guard and gue'vesa entries in their respective codex. Both are exceptions to Guard forces, not the rule.


But both CSM and Tau now have 6th ed codexes with such entries nowhere to be found (Cultists are pretty close, but lack vehicles). If they weren't going to give them full entries, why not make guard battle brothers for a half-decent implementation?
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander




Jacksonville Florida

 Lynata wrote:
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Ordos Xenos. And I'm pretty sure someone could compile a list of these battles if they had the time, they do exist.
Somehow I doubt the Inquisition keeps accurate and unbiased tabs on alien species. And at least for the Marine Codex, the only battles involving SM and Tau were against one another, but not together against a common enemy.
What examples are you referring to?


Tau, Space Marine codex pg. 40 963.M41

Unidentified alien, Space Marine codex pg. 46-47 Aid Unlooked For

Eldar, Space Wolf codex pg.19 An Alliance Broken

Necron, Blood Angels codex 955.M41 The Gehenna Campaign

Eldar, Necron codex pg.25

Space Marines can and will fight alongside alien races including the Tau, not all of them will but it can happen. The Ordos Xenos who are responsible for monitoring human interactions with Xenos would be aware of the majority of such situations. wether or not they are biased toward the situation is irrelevant, and as far as accuracy gors it's the Inquisition getting accurate information is in their job description. And besides the knowledge is also taken from each chapters experiences and histories with each race.

 
   
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Wing Commander






Bludbaff wrote:
But both CSM and Tau now have 6th ed codexes with such entries nowhere to be found

Indeed. I said it was the better option, not the one GW have taken (a rare occurance).
If they weren't going to give them full entries, why not make guard battle brothers for a half-decent implementation?

Because it doesn't make sense? If they wanted to "half-way" it, then there should be an annotation in the matrix for gue'vesa being stand-ins for BB IG allies, otherwise they are AoC only. However, they've failed to do either. So we're stuck with a matrix that makes little overall sense.

Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
   
 
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