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 grendel083 wrote:

Beast wrote:
To further this assertion, the last sentence of the first paragraph on p114 says "All fortifications have a datasheet that contains all the information you'll need to use them in your game." And what is the very first datasheet listed on that page? Yes, it is the ADL...

Yep, and that Datasheet lists it's Terrain Type as Defence Line, not Fortification.

And yet you buy it as a Fortification and place it on the field as per the Fortification deployment?

 grendel083 wrote:

That's sort of the point, it was stated that the ADL was listed under "Purpose-built Fortifiications".
It is mentioned on page 18, in the rule named "Types of Cover Saves" in the first paragraph, but it definatly doesn't list anything as this type.
I think some miss-quoting of "Purpose-buit Fortifications" has caused some of the confusion in this thread.

Actually Grendel, check p109 under "Fortification"- it's the second to last paragraph. That talks about the FOC chart where you have the option to purchase purpose-built battlefiled defenses and it then refers you to p114 (Fortifications)for the desription and selection of them....

Edit fat fingers and clarity..

As grendel pointed out there are fortifications (aka buildings) and Fortifications (aka FOC slot). fortifications confer a 3+ cover save. Fortifications use the rules listed in the data sheet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beast wrote:
Actually Grendel, check p109 under "Fortification"- it's the second to last paragraph. That talks about the FOC chart where you have the option to purchase purpose-built fortifications and it then refers youto p114 for the desription and selection of them....

No it refers to prpose-built defences.

Edit: Beast fixed his post, I'm not changing mine

Beast wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

That's sort of the point, it was stated that the ADL was listed under "Purpose-built Fortifiications".
It is mentioned on page 18, in the rule named "Types of Cover Saves" in the first paragraph, but it definatly doesn't list anything as this type.
I think some miss-quoting of "Purpose-buit Fortifications" has caused some of the confusion in this thread.

Actually Grendel, check p109 under "Fortification"- it's the second to last paragraph. That talks about the FOC chart where you have the option to purchase purpose-built fortifications and it then refers youto p114 for the desription and selection of them....

Hold up that was the problem earlier. It says "Purpose-built, battlefield defences" on page 109, not "Purpose-built Fortifications".

 imweasel wrote:
I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

And yet the Heading of that paragraph is "Fortifications" and refers you to p114 where you may purchase these fortifications...

 Happyjew wrote:
As grendel pointed out there are fortifications (aka buildings) and Fortifications (aka FOC slot). fortifications confer a 3+ cover save. Fortifications use the rules listed in the data sheet.

Absolutley. It was a poor choice of names on GW's part.

Beast wrote:

 imweasel wrote:
I don't see anything about purpose built fortifications, I see reference to purpose built battlefield defences on page 109. Not purpose built fortifications.

And yet the Heading of that paragraph is "Fortifications" and refers you to p114 where you may purchase these fortifications...

Right because it is referring to the FOC slot "Fortifications".

 grendel083 wrote:

Beast wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

That's sort of the point, it was stated that the ADL was listed under "Purpose-built Fortifiications".
It is mentioned on page 18, in the rule named "Types of Cover Saves" in the first paragraph, but it definatly doesn't list anything as this type.
I think some miss-quoting of "Purpose-buit Fortifications" has caused some of the confusion in this thread.

Actually Grendel, check p109 under "Fortification"- it's the second to last paragraph. That talks about the FOC chart where you have the option to purchase purpose-built fortifications and it then refers youto p114 for the desription and selection of them....

Hold up that was the problem earlier. It says "Purpose-built, battlefield defences" on page 109, not "Purpose-built Fortifications".

Yeah I was fixing my post as you were calling me out... Regardless, let's all go to p114 and read that and then look at the choices of fortifications that it talks about... The first datasheet for these fortifications that you can purchase is the ADL...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You can take a single fortification for each primary detachment in your force" So how can we choose an ADL if it is not one of the fortifications this is talking about?

Beast wrote:
"You can take a single fortification for each primary detachment in your force" So how can we choose an ADL if it is not one of the fortifications this is talking about?

It is a Fortification. The Type of Fortification that you purchase, not to be confused with the Terrain type Fortification.

 A GumyBear wrote:
I think we can all just ignore this post. This is a rules debate please do not post random jokes and garbage alike so we can keep our threads serious

This thread is a joke tbh

Two rules:
-Fortifications give 3+
-Defence Lines give 4+

ADL is written under the Fortification-section with Type: Battlefield Debris (Defence Line)
Three guesses what cover-save it will have!

I think you are making a distinction that is not supported by either the words themselves (they don't make the distinction you are making) or the context of the paragraphs on the page nor the ADL datasheet itself. Both the wording and the context support them being fortificaitons (which confer a 3+ cover)...

I really, really don't want this to be the case for ADLs since I face them all the time, but I think Betray may be right on this...

Edit- I was responding to Grendel but was typing slowly... :-(

Beast wrote:
I think you are making a distinction that is not supported by either the words themselves (they don't make the distinction you are making) or the context of the paragraphs on the page nor the ADL datasheet itself. Both the wording and the context support them being fortificaitons (which confer a 3+ cover)...

I really, really don't want this to be the case for ADLs since I face them all the time, but I think Betray may be right on this...

There is a distinction made in the rules, it's on Page 114.

Fortifcations Page 114 wrote:Terrain Type: This tells you what part of the terrain rules you'll need to refer to when using your Fortication. This can be anything from a line of barricades to a large building

This shows that a Fortification needs a Terrain Type (and it's stated in their datasheets). It is not a Terrian Type itself.
If it is a Terrain Type, why does it need a Terrain Type?

Kangodo wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
I think we can all just ignore this post. This is a rules debate please do not post random jokes and garbage alike so we can keep our threads serious

This thread is a joke tbh

Two rules:
-Fortifications give 3+
-Defence Lines give 4+

ADL is written under the Fortification-section with Type: Battlefield Debris (Defence Line)
Three guesses what cover-save it will have!

GUESS #1

the batman symbol

GUESS #2

*this answer was removed due to lack of cowbell

GUESS #3

Defense Line! (4+)

 grendel083 wrote:

I propose that there are 2 definitions of "Fortication" defined in the BRB.

Fortification(1): First Fortification is a terrain type (or 'Cover Type' if you prefer: The cover granted by a piece of terrain). This is found on the Cover Chart of Page 18.

Fortification(2): The second is a piece of terrain purchased for your army and taking up the "Fortification" slot found on the FoC (page 114). All of these have their own datasheet.

Fortification(1) is a terrain type, while Fortification(2) requires a terrain type.

What we have here is an unhappy naming coincidence. Where 2 different things have been given the same name. Fortuatly the Datasheet for the AGL makes it clear which Terrain Type we need to use.

When I started reading this thread, I thought, "Oooooo, 3+ for everyone!" But I think Grendel's above has convinced me to stick with 4+. I think there is a case for 3+, but this argument is far more likely in my mind. GW carelessly used the same word for two different things Not surprising.

Fortifications. Page 114.. Terrain Type. This tells you what part of the terrain rules you'll need to refer to when using your fortification. This can be anything from a line of barricades to a large building.

ADL. page 114. Terrain Type. Battlefield Debris (Defense Lines).

Defense Lines

Defense lines follow all the same rules for barricades and walls except that a unit that decides to Go to Ground behind a defense line gains+ 2 to its cover save rather than +l

Barricades and Walls

If a model is in cover behind a barricade or wall, it has a 4+ cover save


Clear and specific rules that show how to play the ADL. It is a 4+ cover save. Anything else is easter egging.

So what cover save does the landing pad give?

 imweasel wrote:
So what cover save does the landing pad give?

None because it is listed as a Unique terrain type apparently.

Lies! It'd have a 3+ if the unit is hidden behind it

I allways thought this was pretty cut and dry 0_o
Fortifications are generally buildings and enclosed areas.
ADL is a wall. (even says so after it)

Pretty sure its impossible to argue with its own wording.
Theres no way to even twist the rules.

Also, i love the title.
Surely though, if everyone plays it nothing like you do, then theres a pretty damn good chance your playing it wrong

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Betray - you appea to be now entirely ignoring rule #1

Your argument has been disproven by showing you what specifc rules apply to the ADL. You are simply ignoring those contradicting you, as you seem to believe you have spotted something noone else has.

You havent

Me not responding to 2 people who can't construct a proper sentence doesn't disprove anything. If you post solid proof of something, backing it up with page numbers and quotes several times, and my response every time is inevitably some version of "nuh uh!", with no new evidence or explanation of why your proof is invalid, you would eventually quit responding to me as I have to them.

And for the record, the majority of the arguments against me have been: "Your argument has been disproven". Saying something has been disproven doesn't make it so, although to someone skimming through the thread, it may certainly appear that way.

I had a class with someone like you once. They brought up a point in the class, then the ENTIRE class told then exactly how and why that person was wrong. But after 30 minutes, the person was adamant that they were right.

Dude, if after 5 pages people are telling you you're wrong, you probably are. Specific ALWAYs overrides general rules. The general 3+ provided to "purpose built fortifications" is negated by the SPECIFIC rules for the ADL. I do see what you mean, and if specific did not override general rules you would be correct, but alas you are not.

Deal with it.

I think the OP made a solid case, and I was persuaded until someone pointed out the FAQ. We've been playing battlements as 3+ cover because of this very thing, but I feel the FAQ makes the intent clear.

Not the wording, mind you. It just made it all worse. Now battlements are just walls, and not fortifications? Why not just say that somewhere?

 imweasel wrote:
So what cover save does the landing pad give?

3+

I will first address two issues before I reach my conclusion: (1) how much cover does an ADL provide and (2) what effect does its terrain type have?

Each issue will be broken down into two parts: (1) givens provided by the rulebook and (2) a logical argument.

1) ADL & Cover Saves

Givens

The ADL is listed under the Fortifications section. Therefore, it is a fortification. (BRB, p. 114).

It is a purchased fortification [50 pts.] (BRB, p. 114).

Anything that is a fortification can be found to be listed on page 114 and in issues of White Dwarf magazine (BRB, p. 109).

Fortifications [not ruined] provide a 3+ cover save (BRB, p. 18).

Logical Argument

If a piece of terrain is a non-ruined fortification, then it provides a 3+ Cover save. The ADL is a non-ruined fortification. Therefore, the ADL provides a 3+ cover save.

2) ADL & Terrain Type

Givens

ADL has the terrain type: Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines) (BRB, p. 114).

Elements of other types of terrain may apply to Battlefield Debris (BRB, p. 104).

Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines) provide 2+ to cover for Go to Ground while functioning also as Barricades & Walls (BRB, p. 104).

Barricades & Walls provide a 4+ cover save and, for the purposes of assaults, count assaulting models to be in base to base contact if they are within 2" [of the Barricade/Wall] (BRB, p. 104).

Logical Argument

If the ADL functions as Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines), which involves a range of rules [including but not limited to cover saves], and elements of other types of terrain [ex. fortifications] can apply, then the ADL can follow all of the rules listed under Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines) while also having a different cover save appropriate to its being a non-ruined fortification.

Argument Conclusion

Therefore, the ADL is a fortification that, according to the rules, has the appropriate 3+ cover save, provides +2 to cover when models Go to Ground behind it, and counts assaulting models as being base to base with models behind it provided that they are within two inches [of the ADL].







Whew... that took a while.

The better FAQ this for quick reference because it took effort to pull that all together.

Props to Betray for his hard work.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

#1, So it is a Defense Line,

1. Correct, for the purposes of determining movement.

Why only for determining movement?
What rule tells you this? And what rule tells you to ignore the cover save?

The one that tells me that fortifications I pay for give me a 3+ cover save. It's actually a two-part, section. You have to read both sentences.

1. Fortifications as part of your force organization chart: "These represent purpose-built battlefield defenses."
2. Purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ cover save.

The only place fortifications are defined in the book is in the FoC section. That definition is, a fortification purchased as part of your army. Fortifications purchased as part of your army are in better shape, and function better than standard battlefield garbage, as described in the dilapidation section, and inferred through the listing of 3+ for fortifications.

except you are 100% wrong,

the aegis, by definition is BRB pg 114

Terrain type: Battlefield Debris (Defence Lines)

So you see that when you argue that the ADL is NOT battlefield debris, you are wrong

just because ADL takes up a fortification slot, does not mak the peice of terrain you purchase stop being battlefield debris

Therefore, the ADL is a fortification that, according to the rules, has the appropriate 3+ cover save, provides +2 to cover when models Go to Ground behind it, and counts assaulting models as being base to base with models behind it provided that they are within two inches [of the ADL].

And yet the specific rules of Fortifications tell you to play the ADL as a barricade / wall. Which by your conclusion, you are not doing.

 warpspider89 wrote:
The ADL is a non-ruined fortification. Therefore, the ADL provides a 3+ cover save.

It's Terrain Type: Defence Line, Why are you using Terrain Type: Fortification? The datasheet doesn't say this.

Fragile wrote:

Therefore, the ADL is a fortification that, according to the rules, has the appropriate 3+ cover save, provides +2 to cover when models Go to Ground behind it, and counts assaulting models as being base to base with models behind it provided that they are within two inches [of the ADL].

And yet the specific rules of Fortifications tell you to play the ADL as a barricade / wall. Which by your conclusion, you are not doing.

It says it uses the rules for defensive lines, which includes the rules for barricades/walls. Those rules involve more than simply cover saves so those are of particular relevance. The rules for battlefield debris state that other terrain based rules, such as those of fortifications, can be applied to those listed below. As such, the cover save rules overlap and the 3+ would apply.

It's Terrain Type: Defence Line, Why are you using Terrain Type: Fortification? The datasheet doesn't say this.

I am not using Terrain Type: Fortification because that doesn't exist.

It is a fortification, as per page 114, that has the applicable rules from Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines).

 warpspider89 wrote:
I am not using Terrain Type: Fortification because that doesn't exist.

There's no terrain in the BRB that is a Fortification? are you quite sure? Bet I can find one...

It is a fortification, as per page 114, that has the applicable rules from Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines).

So following those rules you get a 4+, yet you choose to use something else?

 grendel083 wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
I am not using Terrain Type: Fortification because that doesn't exist.

There's no terrain in the BRB that is a Fortification? are you quite sure? Bet I can find one...

It is a fortification, as per page 114, that has the applicable rules from Battlefield Debris (Defensive Lines).

So following those rules you get a 4+, yet you choose to use something else?

You are misquoting me. I said that there is no "terrain type: fortification". However, there are fortifications and the ADL is one of them.

Just look at the list of fortifications that begins on page 114. There are four fortifications listed: the Aegis Defence Line, the Skyshield Landing Pad, the Imperial Bastion, and the Fortress of Redemption.

Each of these fortifications has a terrain type. These direct the player to other rules that apply. In order these terrain types are: Battlefield Debris (Defence Lines), Unique, Medium Building, and Small/Medium/Small Building.

I didn't misquote at all. Terrain Type: Fortification is simply a easier way to write "A piece of terrain that is a Fortification". My point remains very much valid.

Cover saves are determined by the type of terrain (or terrain type) that obscured the target.

The terrain type for the ADL is listed in the Datasheet as Defence Line. Therefore a 4+ save

You're choosing a type of terrain that is not listed as the ADL's terrain type to determine cover saves.