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Warning: You actually need to read the post before replying.

Today I bought the hell-turkey. My mind filled with unholy thoughts of roasting some petty Ultramarines, I didn't mind the £45 price tag too much.
Picked up the box, took to the checkout desk, handed over the money (I felt my wallet twinge slightly), picked up the box, and took the receipt.

Read through the receipt, looked at the damage to my personal finances, moaned internally, and then saw the V.A.T (Value Added Tax).

Seven pounds, fifty-two pence. That's £7.52. From a £45 model.
That's 16.71% tax.

The actual price that GW is really selling it for is £37.48.
_______________________________________________________________________

Okay, let's do some thinking:

What are GW's costs for this model alone?

-Paying concept designers
-Paying model designers
-Paying photographers
-Paying market researchers [if any]
-Paying the 'Eavy metal team
-Paying for the running and upkeep of the production line(s)
-Paying for the materials
-Paying for distribution (to their stores)
-Paying for the upkeep of their stores
-Paying the one guy who runs the store (Maybe they have a one-man-store policy due to not being able to afford the other guy)
-Paying the person who puts the Heldrake onto their online store
-Paying for the storage space for stock [I'm assuming this is a factor]

How much profit is it even possible to make, considering the costs?
Looking at the current model price, and their costs, not much per model.

Could they make what may be considered an "unreasonable" amount of profit?
As far as I can tell, it's well within their rights to aim for huge profit margins, but I'm not seeing (m)any.
_________________________________________________________________________

Looking at the fact that 16.71% of the retail price of this model gets taxed off of GW, and the rest gets split between a large number of (possibly quite costly) expenses involved in the creation/distribution/sale of models, it seems to me that GW is getting more flak than it deserves for it's pricing.

While its policies seem abysmal (I'm not going into them here), and their take on releasing high-cost books that are necessary for gameplay is annoying, I don't think that their model prices are anywhere near as bad as people seem to make them out to be.
I admit that a sale or price reduction would be nice, but you need to think: How much would that cut into GW's profits? Any price reduction cuts directly into those.
It seems to me, right now, that GW is actually having a bit of a difficult time balancing "competitive" prices with necessary profits. It may be that GW is kinda forced to act the way it is in an attempt to still be able to make money.

I would like to think that once GW sorts things out, it will be able to make more profits, and start to ease back on the costs of these miniatures, but right now are just having a bad time.

.
Sorry for the kinda rambling post, I just write as thoughts appear, and thank you for reading(if you did).

You are calculating somewhat backwards.
VAT is 20% on purchase price (which back calculating ends up being 16.something).

20% tax is huge. It's also something that's not often calcuated when comparing the prices in other regions. It makes their (GW's) markup in Canada and Austrailia that much worse, given that we're comparing post tax british prices against pre-tax other prices.

You paid 20% VAT.

GWs declared net cost is 27% of their total turnover before the retail and distribution part of the business is included.

They make about 12% profit overall.

There is no need to guess from a receipt, they publish their accounts like all businesses. Look at GWs investor relatioms section you will find it in all of its boring detail.

GW certainly has higher costs than it's competitors

stores cost money in a big way

But even so I think their prices are high (and yes in the EU they pay VAT, but that's not there in the states and prices are still high there)

I fear the major issue is that both fantasy and 40K keep on growing in terms of model/points count so magnify the effects of the prices

(and in general that's at least due in part to the players wanting to run bigger and bigger games, and in part to GW not clamping down on this in the rules)

As for price reductions, no chance,

1. because it would be seen as a sign of problems by the city
2. because it's something virtually no business does
3. because GW see themselves as a premium product they WANT to be more expensive than the completion (and their prices are rising too)

with luck, however maybe they'll get off the price escalator for a year or two, or at least hold to the rate of inflation only

 Selym wrote:
Warning: You actually need to read the post before replying.

Today I bought the hell-turkey. My mind filled with unholy thoughts of roasting some petty Ultramarines, I didn't mind the £45 price tag too much.
Picked up the box, took to the checkout desk, handed over the money (I felt my wallet twinge slightly), picked up the box, and took the receipt.

Read through the receipt, looked at the damage to my personal finances, moaned internally, and then saw the V.A.T (Value Added Tax).

Seven pounds, fifty-two pence. That's £7.52. From a £45 model.
That's 16.71% tax.

The actual price that GW is really selling it for is £37.48.
_______________________________________________________________________

Okay, let's do some thinking:

What are GW's costs for this model alone?

-Paying concept designers
-Paying model designers
-Paying photographers
-Paying market researchers [if any]
-Paying the 'Eavy metal team
-Paying for the running and upkeep of the production line(s)
-Paying for the materials
-Paying for distribution (to their stores)
-Paying for the upkeep of their stores
-Paying the one guy who runs the store (Maybe they have a one-man-store policy due to not being able to afford the other guy)
-Paying the person who puts the Heldrake onto their online store
-Paying for the storage space for stock [I'm assuming this is a factor]

How much profit is it even possible to make, considering the costs?
Looking at the current model price, and their costs, not much per model.

Could they make what may be considered an "unreasonable" amount of profit?
As far as I can tell, it's well within their rights to aim for huge profit margins, but I'm not seeing (m)any.
_________________________________________________________________________

Looking at the fact that 16.71% of the retail price of this model gets taxed off of GW, and the rest gets split between a large number of (possibly quite costly) expenses involved in the creation/distribution/sale of models, it seems to me that GW is getting more flak than it deserves for it's pricing.

While its policies seem abysmal (I'm not going into them here), and their take on releasing high-cost books that are necessary for gameplay is annoying, I don't think that their model prices are anywhere near as bad as people seem to make them out to be.
I admit that a sale or price reduction would be nice, but you need to think: How much would that cut into GW's profits? Any price reduction cuts directly into those.
It seems to me, right now, that GW is actually having a bit of a difficult time balancing "competitive" prices with necessary profits. It may be that GW is kinda forced to act the way it is in an attempt to still be able to make money.

I would like to think that once GW sorts things out, it will be able to make more profits, and start to ease back on the costs of these miniatures, but right now are just having a bad time.

.
Sorry for the kinda rambling post, I just write as thoughts appear, and thank you for reading(if you did).

All of the above should be funded via profit from sales of product. otherwise it justifies the "we can charge this much, because we can" mentality. when in reality they charge that much because the consumer appears to lap up their product regardless. and it has been noted elsewhere. AU/Can have it worse in terms of tax. you buy X model for 35.40 pounds before tax and after is 45.XX pounds here that same product starts as X amount higher (15%-45% generally dearer) before tax and is X amount higher still (again up to or over 45%) effectively paying double. regardless i am not complaining (there are other threads for that purpose)

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
... here that same product starts as X amount higher (15%-45% generally dearer) before tax and is X amount higher still (again up to or over 45%) effectively paying double.

Uh, that's not how GST works.

 insaniak wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
... here that same product starts as X amount higher (15%-45% generally dearer) before tax and is X amount higher still (again up to or over 45%) effectively paying double.

Uh, that's not how GST works.

Do you understand what i typed? if not then sorry for the confusion. GST works like such:
The Goods and Services Tax (GST) in Australia is a value added tax of 10% on most goods and services transactions. GST is levied on most transactions in the production process, but is refunded to all parties in the chain of production other than the final consumer. (from Wikipedia)

i omitted numbers and used xx to represent whatever xx figure. do the mathematics of a British pound - AU $. then work out the gst (10%- potentially more, as most items it isn't fixed at 10%, though generally not much higher) then work out any other tax (banking taxes and/or stamp duty, since we removed the need for stamp duty with the inclusion of the GST simply don't include into final equation) so say a tac squad cost 34 pounds we'll pay $66+ (which means almost double price of a foreign counterpart)

and further reading (also from Wiki, however much of this can also be found here as well; http://www.ato.gov.au/

an excerpt:

Statistics on the GST can be found in publications of the Australian Taxation Office. These are the Annual Report and Taxation Statistics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Australia)


what is so hard to understand?

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Do you understand what i typed?

Hopefully not, since you seemed to be saying that GST adds on up to 45% to the price. Which it doesn't.

a tactical squad i say is $40 before shipping or other unknown figure related cost. it jumps to atleast $50 (whatever the tax is roughly a $10 increase) then with GST ad a further 10%...i am bad at math but the end result is here we pay $66 for something which the OP pays 45 xx pounds for after tax.. for a product which is in another thread (one of the anti GW ones i forgot the name as there are so many) which states "produced at a cost of 0.75 pounds (my math may be off. far dinkum. i apologised for the fact)


I am sorry if my mathematic's is not spot on (really it's used as an example only)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Do you understand what i typed?

Hopefully not, since you seemed to be saying that GST adds on up to 45% to the price. Which it doesn't.

that's right only 10%. (or slightly more each item differs) however we pay dividend of...... $30+ for a similar product. (what i mean't to say was. we pay x amount before GST and then add that on top of other surcharges, billed to the consumer so 34 punds+10% plus "shipping and other costs" = $66. that isn't including the fact the difference in wage country to country.

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
a tactical squad i say is $40 before shipping or other unknown figure related cost. it jumps to atleast $50 (whatever the tax is roughly a $10 increase) then with GST ad a further 10%

Nope, you've lost me again. Where are you getting that first $10 tax from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
that's right only 10%. (or slightly more each item differs)

No, each item doesn't. The GST is 10%.

however we pay dividend of...... $30+ for a similar product. (what i mean't to say was. we pay x amount before GST and then add that on top of other surcharges, billed to the consumer so 34 punds+10% plus "shipping and other costs" = $66. that isn't including the fact the difference in wage country to country.

That's not how it works. The price in the UK has absolutely no bearing on what we pay here. And the GST is factored into the final price, not the base cost of the product.

 insaniak wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
a tactical squad i say is $40 before shipping or other unknown figure related cost. it jumps to atleast $50 (whatever the tax is roughly a $10 increase) then with GST ad a further 10%

Nope, you've lost me again. Where are you getting that first $10 tax from?

it isn't $10 in GST i don't know the GST of a tac squad. i say 10% (meaning 10% GST surcharge, $10 is atleast what i calculated the GST to be included but that'd mean it'd cost 44$-53$ not the $66 we are currently paying [last time i checked they were $66] (might be more or less). added onto whatever hidden charges to make it from 34 pounds to the $66, however the pound is 2.3 the value or thereabouts, so adding that then one could see that GST is lower on a Tac squad, but not by much *anything from 4-8%* (example OP gave) to a further 10% (as we know we don't do stamp duty on goods thanks to GST as that is already included)....the other figures = whatever taxes which might or might even be present (and of which i am not sure of their names. not a Tax expert tbh)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
a tactical squad i say is $40 before shipping or other unknown figure related cost. it jumps to atleast $50 (whatever the tax is roughly a $10 increase) then with GST ad a further 10%

Nope, you've lost me again. Where are you getting that first $10 tax from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
that's right only 10%. (or slightly more each item differs)

No, each item doesn't. The GST is 10%.

however we pay dividend of...... $30+ for a similar product. (what i mean't to say was. we pay x amount before GST and then add that on top of other surcharges, billed to the consumer so 34 punds+10% plus "shipping and other costs" = $66. that isn't including the fact the difference in wage country to country.

That's not how it works. The price in the UK has absolutely no bearing on what we pay here. And the GST is factored into the final price, not the base cost of the product.

the tax is fixed at 10% (the only thing which differs is the end price on certain goods, some goods are exlcuded while other appear to have a higher GST surcharge. if they don't then it comes down to another tax or levy)

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
it isn't $10 in GST i don't know the GST of a tac squad. i say 10% (meaning 10% GST surcharge, $10 is atleast what i calculated the GST to be included but that'd mean it'd cost 44$-53$ not the $66 we are currently paying [last time i checked they were $66] (might be more or less). added onto whatever hidden charges to make it from 34 pounds to the $66, however the pound is 2.3 the value or thereabouts, so adding that then one could see that GST is lower on a Tac squad, but not by much *anything from 4-8%* (example OP gave) to a further 10% (as we know we don't do stamp duty on goods thanks to GST as that is already included)....the other figures = whatever taxes which might or might even be present (and of which i am not sure of their names. not a Tax expert tbh)

Yeah, you have misunderstood the process. GST is added on at the end, not in the middle. GST on a $62 box of Space Marines is $5.63 (you divide the final price by 11 to give you 10% of the base price).


The difference in our price and the UK price is nothing to do with taxes. It is to do with GW setting prices higher in Australia based on a 10-year-old exchange rate.

And the GST is factored into the final price, not the base cost of the product....as have i been suggesting all along. regardless when it is factored in the price is subjectively higher regardless. we are affected by UK pricing. they aren't by us. however AU seems to be the bar which price expectations seem to be measured against (in terms of price- value). a 10% GST is included after the price has been fixed. then retailers add their 10-15% (which determines overall price, which in turn gets regulated by the ARA or similar to find out if it meets fair trade, if not the price is altered to a suitable fixed price in this case its subjectively/objectively more than the OP and that is after he had to pay VAT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
it isn't $10 in GST i don't know the GST of a tac squad. i say 10% (meaning 10% GST surcharge, $10 is atleast what i calculated the GST to be included but that'd mean it'd cost 44$-53$ not the $66 we are currently paying [last time i checked they were $66] (might be more or less). added onto whatever hidden charges to make it from 34 pounds to the $66, however the pound is 2.3 the value or thereabouts, so adding that then one could see that GST is lower on a Tac squad, but not by much *anything from 4-8%* (example OP gave) to a further 10% (as we know we don't do stamp duty on goods thanks to GST as that is already included)....the other figures = whatever taxes which might or might even be present (and of which i am not sure of their names. not a Tax expert tbh)

Yeah, you have misunderstood the process. GST is added on at the end, not in the middle. GST on a $62 box of Space Marines is $5.63 (you divide the final price by 11 to give you 10% of the base price).


The difference in our price and the UK price is nothing to do with taxes. It is to do with GW setting prices higher in Australia based on a 10-year-old exchange rate.

I am no expert. errors are bound to happen

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
however AU seems to be the bar which price expectations seem to be measured against (in terms of price- value). a 10% GST is included after the price has been fixed. then retailers add their 10-15%

Still not how it works.

If the retailer sells for $62, that means the actual retail price is around $57, with the $5-ish GST added to make the final price of $62.

The retailer paid GW about $40. That $40 is not directly related to the current UK price in any way, shape or form. It's a price that GW set based on an exchange rate back when the Oz dollar was worth a whole lot less than it is now. When the dollar went up, GW, like a lot of other distributors, kept their price calculations the same, and pocketed the difference.

This is why so many Australian customers are so cranky about it. If the price difference was down to legitimate costs, that would be one thing... But it's not. It's just GW charging what they think they can get away with.

For me it was the not just the price increases that turned me away from the hobby but the consistent shrinking of what you actually got in the box.

For example i remember when it was 20 Cadians for about 20 odd quid, now i pay 18 of my hard earned pounds for only 10 models...

I mean we can scrub the following from your list to explain this

-Paying concept designers
-Paying model designers
-Paying photographers
-Paying market researchers [if any]
-Paying the 'Eavy metal team

As that is all already done before they decided to shrink what they gave me.

The rising cost of empire soldiers was the last straw for me with GW, when it got to 10 state troops for £16. Again you used to get so much more for about the same money.

So in all for me its not just about the price rises, its about what i am getting for my money, i doubt a couple of extra sprues in each set would cost an arm and a leg and eat into that 12% to much.

If small companies like Perry can turn a profit on a relatively small volume of sales compared to GW and be as generous as they are, 40 odd models for 18 quid normally then GW must be greedy, stingy or both.

Also 12% is pretty damn good, i know when i toe dipped into retail 3-4% profit would be considered good.

I really don't see much of a defense being possible when it comes to GW and its pricing, but ultimately enough people still buy the product so they are doing something right.

It is a shame though, as i do miss the games, but i just wont drop half a grand to get a decent army going considering what that would buy me from alternative companies.

According to GW's own statement, the production cost (Cost of Goods) of their goods is on average 24% of the pre-tax retail price.

Price is the one area of GW I don't have a problem with.

A couples of models are a bit high, including the LOTR range, but generally I find 40K models to be reasonably priced.

 Ugavine wrote:
Price is the one area of GW I don't have a problem with.

A couples of models are a bit high, including the LOTR range, but generally I find 40K models to be reasonably priced.

This is where I generally stand. It'd be nice for the boxes to be about 5-10% cheaper, but compared to similar items, GW isn't doing too badly with its prices.
Heck, whenever I've been pointed to other wargames, it's actually shown to be cheaper for me to stick with GW than to move onto another (for me at least).

 Ugavine wrote:
Price is the one area of GW I don't have a problem with.

A couples of models are a bit high, including the LOTR range, but generally I find 40K models to be reasonably priced.

Yup. I can spend £20 a bag of weed that will last a night, or I can spend £24 on models that will take me at least a week to paint, and that I can use more or less indefinitely. Not to mention the extortionate cost of tobacco in this day and age, even a moderate smoker spends more on tobacco in a week than the average 40k collecter spends on models.

I'm not convinced that, 'You'll spend less on our product than a chemically addicted person does on their drug!' is necessarily something to be cheering about, or putting on the advertising flyers....

'GW - cheaper than fags and it (probably) won't kill you!'

Unless you step on some of the old 2nd edition plastic gretchins and die from the bleeding.

"good" old memories ;(

 Ketara wrote:
I'm not convinced that, 'You'll spend less on our product than a chemically addicted person does on their drug!' is necessarily something to be cheering about, or putting on the advertising flyers....

Disregarding your factually incorrect statement on weed being "chemically addictive" (I assume you mean physically addictive, which it is not)...look kid, sorry to tell you this, but in the real world people drink, smoke, and have sex. Warhammer is cheaper than the first two, and far cheaper than the third (if you have to pay for it ).

40k may not be cheaper than your soda pops and colouring books, or whatever kids these days are into. But it's cheaper than many vices that a great many people have, and sticks around a lot longer too.

And it pales in comparison to actually hobbies, like golf.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I'm not convinced that, 'You'll spend less on our product than a chemically addicted person does on their drug!' is necessarily something to be cheering about, or putting on the advertising flyers....

Disregarding your factually incorrect statement on weed being "chemically addictive" (I assume you mean physically addictive, which it is not)...look kid, sorry to tell you this, but in the real world people drink, smoke, and have sex. Warhammer is cheaper than the first two, and far cheaper than the third (if you have to pay for it ).

40k may not be cheaper than your soda pops and colouring books, or whatever kids these days are into. But it's cheaper than many vices that a great many people have, and sticks around a lot longer too.

And it pales in comparison to actually hobbies, like golf.

He would be fctuay incorrect if we couldn't read properly like you. Once you have that down pat you can work on showing abit more respect to other posters.

And golf isn't a hobby, it's a disease.

 BryllCream wrote:

Disregarding your factually incorrect statement on weed being "chemically addictive" (I assume you mean physically addictive, which it is not)...look kid, sorry to tell you this, but in the real world people drink, smoke, and have sex. Warhammer is cheaper than the first two, and far cheaper than the third (if you have to pay for it ).

You may wish to cut the condescension, 'kid'. Not many people appreciate it, and it just makes you come across badly to adults.

I was referring to the 'extortionate cost of tobacco in this day and age, even a moderate smoker spends more on tobacco.' Last time I checked, tobacco contained nicotine, which is more than slightly addictive.

40k may not be cheaper than your soda pops and colouring books, or whatever kids these days are into. But it's cheaper than many vices that a great many people have, and sticks around a lot longer too.
And it pales in comparison to actually hobbies, like golf.

It also pales in comparison to high stakes gambling, a taste for vintage wine, and fine dining in expensive restaurants and hotels. But then again, so do most things.

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the point made, the logic used to get there is terrible.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Price is the one area of GW I don't have a problem with.

A couples of models are a bit high, including the LOTR range, but generally I find 40K models to be reasonably priced.

Yup. I can spend £20 a bag of weed that will last a night, or I can spend £24 on models that will take me at least a week to paint, and that I can use more or less indefinitely. Not to mention the extortionate cost of tobacco in this day and age, even a moderate smoker spends more on tobacco in a week than the average 40k collecter spends on models.

Sad thing is that night with your bag of weed would be worth more then 7 days painting a boring model made by games workshop.. I think most dedicated smokers also would agree that spending money smoking is more important then collecting minatures, my father rather somkes then paints miniatures for example

The avrage golfer also spends more money on green cards, clubs and gear.. The avrage soft-airgun/paintball player spends more money... Its all very irrelevant to the subject at hand....... GWs miniatures will still at the end of the day cost more when compared to many other companies in the same business as them, and that is the only relevent Fact we need to consider here..

 BryllCream wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
I'm not convinced that, 'You'll spend less on our product than a chemically addicted person does on their drug!' is necessarily something to be cheering about, or putting on the advertising flyers....

Disregarding your factually incorrect statement on weed being "chemically addictive" (I assume you mean physically addictive, which it is not)...look kid, sorry to tell you this, but in the real world people drink, smoke, and have sex. Warhammer is cheaper than the first two, and far cheaper than the third (if you have to pay for it ).

[b]40k may not be cheaper than your soda pops and colouring books, or whatever kids these days are into. But it's cheaper than many vices that a great many people have, and sticks around a lot longer too.

And it pales in comparison to actually hobbies, like golf.

This does not compare favorably with this:

 BryllCream wrote:
MeanGreenStomper, your style of posting is highly offputting. If you want people to reply rather than leave the thread, you might want to try being a little less confrontational.

Also, quite obviously we have no data to show how big the "online community" is, so everything in this thread is going to be speculation. You can reply to speculation or ignore it, but don't simply go "no facts, go home" as if that's mature or intelligent.

In the words of the immortal bard, you need to check yourself, before you wreck yourself... kid.

For the love of Pete, why oh why is it apparently impossible for almost everyone to get a handle on this?

IT'S NOT ABOUT PRICE IT'S ABOUT VALUE

It doesn't matter how much you spend, as long as you feel that you've received an appropriate amount in return, whether that's time spent, fun had, property gained, whatever.

If I spunked a million pounds a week on my private jet habit, but felt happy and content in what I'd bought, I'd be fine. I do not, and neither do many other people if these boards are a gauge, feel that GW offer me that value, which is why I've moved in to other games and found other ways of filling the gaps in my 40k armies (most of my daemons are 3rd party outside of core troops for instance)

I have no issue paying £50 for a model, I just have an issue paying GW that much money for what they offer at the prices they offer them.

 azreal13 wrote:
For the love of Pete, why oh why is it apparently impossible for almost everyone to get a handle on this?

IT'S NOT ABOUT PRICE IT'S ABOUT VALUE

It doesn't matter how much you spend, as long as you feel that you've received an appropriate amount in return, whether that's time spent, fun had, property gained, whatever.

If I spunked a million pounds a week on my private jet habit, but felt happy and content in what I'd bought, I'd be fine. I do not, and neither do many other people if these boards are a gauge, feel that GW offer me that value, which is why I've moved in to other games and found other ways of filling the gaps in my 40k armies (most of my daemons are 3rd party outside of core troops for instance)

I have no issue paying £50 for a model, I just have an issue paying GW that much money for what they offer at the prices they offer them.

Yep, it's about the same thing for all retail, Consumer Perceived Worth. 'That's too expensive' /= 'I can't afford that'.

And yet year in, year out, GW will raise price, some people will comment on the forum 'good grief, i'm not paying that much' and some bright spark will chime in with 'well, it's an expensive hobby, you should leave if you're too poor' or some variant on 'heat and kitchen' analogy, entirely missing the point.

Thank [insert deity] for online retailers and their 20-30% discounts on RRP, is all I can say.