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 Mr Nobody wrote:
If you're not having fun, don't force it. You can always return to the hobby if you want.

This.

i think its a conspiracy to take over Australia using little robotic plastic men and they cost so much to pay for the robotics. but on a serious note hold onto them you never know it may improve.

StonedDragons wrote:
Sadly I am seriously contemplating leaving Warhammer 40k for one of the other gaming systems. It has not been a easy choice, I love the game, I think it has great promise, amazing potential but Games Workshop has largely ruined the enjoyment for me. I don't want to look forwards to spending the rest of my hobby playing life watching a procession of 'flavour of the month' books coming out each more powerful than the last just to sell models. I don't want to have to deal with the discriminatory pricing policies I encounter, not only in Australia though it is bad here with even E-books getting at least a 40% 'australian tax' courtesy only of GW on them, but notice that despite significant profit margins on there models the consumer gets little reward back.

I am feeling rather cold and cynical over the whole business to put it bluntly and almost regret having forked out for the eldar army I see sitting lined up on my hobby table.

Don't be sad. Be happy. You are taking your first steps into exploring the greater hobby that exists outside of GW's "hobby" of molesting your wallet.
I played 40k on and off for about 24 years before giving it up for another SF miniatures game. Infinity. 20-30 local players and not a single douchebag amongst them (yet). Wish I could say the same for the other games.

I still have my armies. I bought them because I liked the models, not because I thought the ARMY's rules were cool. They are still my cool models, even if they are currently sitting forgotten and unmourned in the shed. I can always use them with another set of rules down the track, after all. Powered armour human infantry will always be PA human infantry. Regular mooks will always be cannon fodder - no matter the game or manufacturer.

Not everyone can make the jump from 40k to Infinity though. They are two massively different games IMHO. Infinity can be fun but it can be outright boring. I found the games to be frustratingly short and over with very quickly (150 point games mind you, I've heard 300 is obviously much more meaty but much more paperwork to keep track of). Whilst sometimes Infinity can be very rewarding tactically I still didn't and never have had as much fun as 40k. The only game I've had more/similar enjoyment from is Flames of War using the Americans. That system is pure fun, tactics and outright awesome. Maybe it's the D6 system suiting my lack of brains ;-)

Oh - and don't quit.

 chromedog wrote:

StonedDragons wrote:
Sadly I am seriously contemplating leaving Warhammer 40k for one of the other gaming systems. It has not been a easy choice, I love the game, I think it has great promise, amazing potential but Games Workshop has largely ruined the enjoyment for me. I don't want to look forwards to spending the rest of my hobby playing life watching a procession of 'flavour of the month' books coming out each more powerful than the last just to sell models. I don't want to have to deal with the discriminatory pricing policies I encounter, not only in Australia though it is bad here with even E-books getting at least a 40% 'australian tax' courtesy only of GW on them, but notice that despite significant profit margins on there models the consumer gets little reward back.

I am feeling rather cold and cynical over the whole business to put it bluntly and almost regret having forked out for the eldar army I see sitting lined up on my hobby table.

Don't be sad. Be happy. You are taking your first steps into exploring the greater hobby that exists outside of GW's "hobby" of molesting your wallet.
I played 40k on and off for about 24 years before giving it up for another SF miniatures game. Infinity. 20-30 local players and not a single douchebag amongst them (yet). Wish I could say the same for the other games.

I still have my armies. I bought them because I liked the models, not because I thought the ARMY's rules were cool. They are still my cool models, even if they are currently sitting forgotten and unmourned in the shed. I can always use them with another set of rules down the track, after all. Powered armour human infantry will always be PA human infantry. Regular mooks will always be cannon fodder - no matter the game or manufacturer.

While I agree quitting for your reason makes sense, quitting for unformed reasons, more then liking come about from over reading other misinformed posts on the Internet, just isn't right in my mind. If you love 40k, stick with it, yes it can be expensive, but if you refuse to spend money on something you love, what is worth while spending money on?

Edit: quoted wrong post

StonedDragons wrote:
No, thats all GW.

So you saying when Aussies, have to buy video games at a 40% mark up as well it's GW fault? So you saying you are paying $50 for a video game? Funny I keep reading how Aussies, have to over pay on a lot things espically video games. Even on Steam they are Aussie prices not rest of the World prices. This is GW fault as well?

As for quitting, why not just take a break from GW. Like you, I became cynical, hatefull etc etc. I took a break or quit. BUT I didn't get rid of my stuff. I am glad I didn't. After years later, I got back in, and I am glad I didn't get rid of anything. Take a break. Even quit but don't get rid of anything, because eventually you will come back.

I wish I never got rid of my battletech stuff. I had a lot of stuff. Wanted to get back into it, but just couldn't rebuy everything again what I already had.

In Canada our dollar is the same as the US buck. We are paying 20% if not more on a lot of stuff.

Simple answer is this. Want to keep buying GW, you will just have to save a bit more. Thing, is I don't really think price is why you are quitting. You like me are not just having fun anymore. So how about house ruling a lot of stuff? Is that an option for you? For me it's not because people in my group, or use to group since I haven't gone in a year, are so afraid of house rules, they just stick to the book. They have a need to win instead of having fun.

So as I said, just take a break. Don't get rid of anything and when you are ready, you will come back. Good luck in your choice. Also, why not do both systems? I bought Hobbit, 40K, and I also got Warmachine and Hordes and bought the new Battletech box set as well. You can play with more than one system. Just let 40K take a back seat for a while.

Good Luck.

Davor wrote:

StonedDragons wrote:
No, thats all GW.

So you saying when Aussies, have to buy video games at a 40% mark up as well it's GW fault? So you saying you are paying $50 for a video game? Funny I keep reading how Aussies, have to over pay on a lot things espically video games. Even on Steam they are Aussie prices not rest of the World prices. This is GW fault as well?

Terrible example, just awful. The reasoning behind making Aussies pay more for games it supposedly with less people per square km distribution costs more, yet the product is usually digital.

GW taxing Australia (and might I add NZ gets it a degree worse still!) is pretty shameful, fortunately there are alternatives.

MarsNZ wrote:

Davor wrote:

StonedDragons wrote:
No, thats all GW.

So you saying when Aussies, have to buy video games at a 40% mark up as well it's GW fault? So you saying you are paying $50 for a video game? Funny I keep reading how Aussies, have to over pay on a lot things espically video games. Even on Steam they are Aussie prices not rest of the World prices. This is GW fault as well?

Terrible example, just awful. The reasoning behind making Aussies pay more for games it supposedly with less people per square km distribution costs more, yet the product is usually digital.

GW taxing Australia (and might I add NZ gets it a degree worse still!) is pretty shameful, fortunately there are alternatives.

Actually, that is a great example, how would steam justify digital downloads for movement of goods? It is just the economy, mate. The Aussie dollar is strong, yes, but it is just based on the market, higher wages, higher cost of living, higher goods prices. It is all relative.

 Rippy wrote:
Actually, that is a great example, how would steam justify digital downloads for movement of goods? It is just the economy, mate. The Aussie dollar is strong, yes, but it is just based on the market, higher wages, higher cost of living, higher goods prices. It is all relative.

No, it's based on the strength of the Australian dollar over a decade ago. In the late 90's, early 00's we were paying $90-$100 for video games and $30-$40 for DVDs and CDs. Notice that we're still paying those prices? Same reason we're still paying GW's insane prices - those industries are quite happy pocketing the extra based on the strength of the Aussie dallar, and since the average Australian consumer pays it, they see no reason to reduce the price.

Digital distribution prices depend on the publisher. Valve aren't the publisher - Steam is a distribution method for publishers. You'll notice that, say, Activisian games are $99usd for Australians, but some of the publishers charge us $50usd-$70usd for new games. Look at iTunes - it's significantly cheaper than buying a CD on day of release, because even the music industry has decided to not gouge Australia (Apple admitted in the Australian Supreme Court that they don't control pricing on iTunes for music and movies, the movie and music industries do).

The scary part there is the music and movie industries are more willing to give Australians a fairer shake on digital distribution than anyone else.

That is a scary thing. And as for battletech its relatively easy to get back into with just the box set, $60 and you get 24 plastic models (low quality but something to build on) and 2 good quality models. 2 map sheets and some other really cool books and a big fold out poster of the inner sphere. Plus battletech has always been of the opinion they don't care what you use to play it. Could use a cardboard cutout with 'Atlas' written on it, since they aren't driven by miniature sales.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Actually, that is a great example, how would steam justify digital downloads for movement of goods? It is just the economy, mate. The Aussie dollar is strong, yes, but it is just based on the market, higher wages, higher cost of living, higher goods prices. It is all relative.

No, it's based on the strength of the Australian dollar over a decade ago. In the late 90's, early 00's we were paying $90-$100 for video games and $30-$40 for DVDs and CDs. Notice that we're still paying those prices? Same reason we're still paying GW's insane prices - those industries are quite happy pocketing the extra based on the strength of the Aussie dallar, and since the average Australian consumer pays it, they see no reason to reduce the price.

Digital distribution prices depend on the publisher. Valve aren't the publisher - Steam is a distribution method for publishers. You'll notice that, say, Activisian games are $99usd for Australians, but some of the publishers charge us $50usd-$70usd for new games. Look at iTunes - it's significantly cheaper than buying a CD on day of release, because even the music industry has decided to not gouge Australia (Apple admitted in the Australian Supreme Court that they don't control pricing on iTunes for music and movies, the movie and music industries do).

The scary part there is the music and movie industries are more willing to give Australians a fairer shake on digital distribution than anyone else.

The is exactly the point! Games are still $100 and have been for a long time. If our dollar was as weak as it was ten years ago, prices would be alot different. Games are still the same price as when I was a kid. And that is thanks to the strong Aussie dollar. Our minimum wage is much higher then that of a lot of other first world countries, and therefore things cost more. Things just aren't that bad.

im not going to make this a GW bash or anything but i stopped seriously collecting gamesworkshop stuff 2 years ago now i really only buy the 2 player sets for me and my friend to enjoy every now and then, there are many other tabletop games out there, since ive started warmachine/hordes i havent regretted it, australians tend to get the crappy end of the deal when it comes to GW pricing, but its still a great game, honestly if you not happy with the game just shelve them and try out another table top game, many of them are fantastic a few recommendations would be: warmachine, hordes, flames of war, infinity, malifaux and dystopian wars, you cant go wrong with any of these games the companies tend to release updates all at once to maintain balance and encourages players to stick with there faction or race that they want instead of jumping on the flavour of the month bandwagon

Oh and the biggest point of all in regards to games and DVDs, is that they get pirated, which lowers their prices, making their inflation seem less. So in summary, thanks to pirating, and the Aussie dollar, games have been "inflating" in price, relatively, games workshop is also inflating prices for maximum profit. Plus Nurgle is god.

 Rippy wrote:
Oh and the biggest point of all in regards to games and DVDs, is that they get pirated, which lowers their prices

And GW products get recast and sold, and their books can scanned and put online. Why are GW's prices not being reduced due to piracy?

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Oh and the biggest point of all in regards to games and DVDs, is that they get pirated, which lowers their prices

And GW products get recast and sold, and their books can scanned and put online. Why are GW's prices not being reduced due to piracy?

The scale of piracy are on such a different level. Pretty much everyone I know downloads movies, and everyone I know who plays warhammer has a physical copy of the rule book, codices, and legitiment models. Please tell me you are just arguing for the sake of it now.

 Rippy wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Oh and the biggest point of all in regards to games and DVDs, is that they get pirated, which lowers their prices

And GW products get recast and sold, and their books can scanned and put online. Why are GW's prices not being reduced due to piracy?

The scale of piracy are on such a different level. Pretty much everyone I know downloads movies, and everyone I know who plays warhammer has a physical copy of the rule book, codices, and legitiment models. Please tell me you are just arguing for the sake of it now.

Anecdotally, everyone I know buys movies, but out of the 3 wargamers I personally know, two download their books and one recasts his models.

The scale of the piracy in the movie and music industry is only due to the scale of those industries. There's plenty of recasting and pirating of books getting done in the the wargaming industry - even non GW stuff.

The fact it's happening, and not driving the price down as you say it does in other industries only sheds negative light on GW. They're greedy enough to make the rest of the buying population foot the bill.

 Rippy wrote:
The Australian minimum wage is much higher then that say, in the USA. Cost of living is also much higher, everything from electronics to cars are more expensive in this way. Going to stop buying those too? GW want their cut as well, it sucks, but it's life.

It is also based around the main industry supporting Australia, which is mining, that is another reason prices are so much higher. But alas, not everyone works in the mines and such so there is really, (minimum wages and such included) no reason it should be THAT high, 10-20% maybe, but anywhere upwards of 100-150%¿ I do not really think it is justified. (I live in Perth, so everything is more expensive than over eat anyway XD just me two cents

 Ailaros wrote:
Codex creep has been a blatant lie for years now. Just ask eldar, tyranid, dark angels, tau, chaos, orks or dark eldar how overpowered their current codex was when it came out. Furthermore, the idea that GW makes up rules just to sell models is meaningless in a world where GW doesn't actually MAKE models for its new units. The guard codex has been out for 5 years now, and we still don't have a medusa or colossus model - both of which were "new" additions to the codex.

If you're getting sick of people getting excited by new things, then don't play a game that is continually generating new content. Go find something stale to play with no innovation whatsoever, like chess, or go, or battleship.

40k has a great return on investment compared to SO many things, given that it's a durable good. And it's very comprehensive, what with gaming and hobbying and community.

If you've got a bad attitude about it regardless, then I'm sure there's someone out there who is more than willing to buy your minis off of you for cheap who will get more enjoyment out of them.

This was the singularly most insightful thing in this thread.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Oh and the biggest point of all in regards to games and DVDs, is that they get pirated, which lowers their prices

And GW products get recast and sold, and their books can scanned and put online. Why are GW's prices not being reduced due to piracy?

The scale of piracy are on such a different level. Pretty much everyone I know downloads movies, and everyone I know who plays warhammer has a physical copy of the rule book, codices, and legitiment models. Please tell me you are just arguing for the sake of it now.

Anecdotally, everyone I know buys movies, but out of the 3 wargamers I personally know, two download their books and one recasts his models.

The scale of the piracy in the movie and music industry is only due to the scale of those industries. There's plenty of recasting and pirating of books getting done in the the wargaming industry - even non GW stuff.

The fact it's happening, and not driving the price down as you say it does in other industries only sheds negative light on GW. They're greedy enough to make the rest of the buying population foot the bill.

You miss the point that no one wants to drive their prices down, and the piracy and other factors obviously aren't significant enough to drive them down.

Dude 5 words Batman Arkham city miniatures game its fun and ibly getting better its relatively cheap as gou obly need so many models to get going the team who created it are very active in facebook to help with rules queries good stuff

I buy 99% of all my models from eBay. In the end I only pay about half of what it would cost me buying from GW direct. 40K can be reasonable on your wallet if you have the patience to shop around.

StonedDragons wrote:
I love the game, I think it has great promise, amazing potential but Games Workshop has largely ruined the enjoyment for me. I don't want to look forwards to spending the rest of my hobby playing life watching a procession of 'flavour of the month' books coming out each more powerful than the last just to sell models. I don't want to have to deal with the discriminatory pricing policies I encounter...
...I am feeling rather cold and cynical over the whole business to put it bluntly and almost regret having forked out for the eldar army I see sitting lined up on my hobby table.

If you want to shelve 40k, I completely understand. GW has some policies that provide more than enough reason to get out. There's a world of other wargames out there to try and no reason to stick with a game thats not doing it for you..
However, I HIGHLY recommend holding on to your Eldar for at least a couple years, maybe more for a few reasons.

1) You might change your mind. It's easy to get burned out on something, take a break and then get the itch again after a while, and it sounds like you do still like the game.
2) It's a big investment. If you decide to get back in later, you won't have to face the huge financial hurdle of buying a new army.
3) You might move or your gaming community might change and 40k might end up being the only game in town.
4) The next codex might really inspire you to play again. Its's fun to be the flavor of the month.

I shelved 40k a while ago and only play it a couple times a year. However, I'm holding on to my two armies. Though I've got a nice club of gaming buddies who play indie games with me, if that changes I know I will always be able to find a game of 40k. Also, two of my buddies are playing 40k (one seriously, one occasionally) now, so it's nice to be able to play a casual game with them now and then.
Suffice to say, explore your options, but don't burn your bridges yet.

If you do not like being thrown around by GW go ahead and quit, or get a force that you are happy with in size and just don't buy anymore products


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you do not like being thrown around by GW go ahead and quit, or get a force that you are happy with in size and just don't buy anymore products

Just keep your force at the size it is now and play at FLGS or at friends houses, so you dont have to have any more to do with GW.

The last 3 codex's have been very balanced I think. There is still an aspect of 'flavour of the month', but they are a business, and they want to sell new products to justify the expenditure needed to create them.

GW are unfortunately heading in a direction that a lot of people dont like. The price creep (which is now getting disgusting), the policy towards resellers/distributors, their errors in new books and failure to address them adequately in FAQ's/Errata's. Its all a bit dissapointing.

I still love 40k though. I just buy less, and I buy and play at my FLGS and at home.

The game is fun. So denying yourself fun over philosophical differences with a COMPANY doesn't make sense to me.

Buying online is the sure way to cheat GW itself out of sales and show them your displeasure. Proxy stuff is another. I can get Gundam models for $16 that stand in just fine as Crisis sutis, etc...

GW is pumping its stock price for a sale to someone to take over the property I think and when that happns it could be a good thing.

Decide what YOU like or don't like about it. See if any of those you regularly play feel the same way. You may be able to come to some kind of accord. My group decided they didn't like a lot of the rules since 5th Ed. and felt GW was trying too hard to generate sales simply by invalidating old rules and turning armies over. So we kept what we liked and incorporated new things if we decided they were worthwhile.

They are your miniatures so you can do what you want with them. Just remember, you don't have to decide right away so take your time if not sure. If you decide you're done, then you're done and you can move on from there.

hubbsey wrote:
If you don't like the prices, please enjoy selecting any model you desire from a number of reputable ebay dealers.

If you don't like the models, buy some lovely counts-as models from any number of reputable and desirable competitors.

The only reason to quit the game is if you aren't having fun playing. If you're offended by GW's business practices, by all means, do not purchase from them; if you still want to play the game, just maneuver around buying from GW directly.

BINGO! +1 my friend...

The last 3 codex releases have had 0 bandwagon jumpers around here. They really balanced. Now if only they'd hurry up and make a new necron dex...

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Just keep your force at the size it is now and play at FLGS or at friends houses, so you dont have to have any more to do with GW.

He'll still have to live with their rules updates though, unless they decide to stick with the system as it was at particular point in time

 Jancoran wrote:
The game is fun. So denying yourself fun over philosophical differences with a COMPANY doesn't make sense to me.

Buying online is the sure way to cheat GW itself out of sales and show them your displeasure. Proxy stuff is another. I can get Gundam models for $16 that stand in just fine as Crisis sutis, etc...

GW is pumping its stock price for a sale to someone to take over the property I think and when that happns it could be a good thing.

Buying GW stuff online is still a sale and profit for them, unless its second hand.

There is no guarantee that someone taking over is going to be a good thing. It could be worse.

obviously I meant buying second hand. So...

And as for "no guiarantee", who cares if the man is already displeased. His opinion can only get better not worse.