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I played a game this weekend against High Elves with my Ogres. My opponent had a block of 30 (I think? It was a lot) Swordmasters. My Ogres pretty much had nothing to do against them. What offensive spells my Slaughtermaster had I tried using, but could never get them to do anything, and I didn't have the Maw. I was running 1 Ironblaster and no scraplauncher.

Aside from hoping to pepper them with my leadbelchers or switch to a scrap launcher, what do ogres have against such an OP killy unit?

Have you considered a fireblly? They have a hex that can cause damage if the affected unit moves whilst it's active. or just sling massive amounts direct damage their way. They can also give +1 to wound for your leadbelchers.

Probably ranged is going to be your friend. What about Monstrous cavalry like mournfangs or a Stonehorn for impact hitting goodness to soften them up?

A horde of Swordmasters will slaughter pretty much anything in the game, so yeah. But, they only have around 40 attacks in total, and that's only if they get all their guys in BtB. On an average Ogre Unit, if my calculations are correct, the Swordmasters will be killing around 8 Ogres a turn. That's 8 Ogres, not 8 wounds.

As scary as this is, a unit of say, 16 Bulls or a Gutstar or whatever, will have plenty of attacks left, even after half their unit has been slaughtered. With Impact Hits, normal attacks and Stomp, you're probably going to do a lot of damage. Of course, against HE, running a deathstar is always dangerous and they don't find it too hard to get a Dwellers off or something. It's up to you how you want to play it. Bring a Dispel Scroll though.

Ranged is probably a good idea as well. As long as you haven't let your opponent get Flesh to Stone off, they're still only T3 and will probably just have the 5+ Save, so any S5 attacks are going to be killing them on 2s. I'm not sure what Strength Leadbelcher guns are, but I imagine they're pretty strong and would be a good answer to it. Same goes for the Ironblaster.

Also, at the end of the day, Ogres are faster than Elves as far as movement goes and the fact that the swordmaster unit is 10 wide is going to make it hard to manoeuver about. You can, if you're clever, take advantage of this, and set it up unfavourably or simply avoid it for a large portion of the game.

A unit of 30 Swordmasters is a massive investment in terms of points (as well as not being a particularly good unit), so you can always take the same approach as with any other massive Deathstar close combat unit- just don't fight it. Feed it chaff and ignore it and kill the rest of his army to get the win.

Failing that, Ogres do have some pretty decent tools for dealing with big elf units, namely impact hits. Leadbelchers will take them off in droves, and Mournfang will also knock chunks out of the unit.

In short, play it smart- don't try and fight a combat where the maths isn't in your favour, instead chaff the unit up and whittle it down and then combo charge it when it's down to a manageable size. If you can't beat it with 1 unit of Mournfang, charge the Gutstar in as well. If that won't be enough, charge a second unit of Mournfang or an Ironblaster in as well to max out on impact hits. Get a calculator out and run some numbers, find out what you need to beat it if you're determined to fight it.

MSU still works for Ogres, unlike most armies. Take several units of ten gnoblars, no one cares if they die and they will neuter a Swordmaster horde guaranteed with an unavoidable succession of 'snack' units that add up to a very effective and large area tarpit.

I also think that trying to get a Disordering flank attack in here is of vital importance. A unit of 6 Ogre Bulls can move and maneuver pretty fast, and if you can get them into the flank, you will stand a chance of getting rid of their Stubborn/Steadfast benefits.

But you definitely need to gang up on these guys, following some sustained shooting. Otherwise their Always Strikes First, Str 5, and re-rolls for Initiative are simply going to carve you to ribbons.

Alternately, if you can get some negative modifiers to their Leadership, and charge them with Terror causing units (Gorgers spring to mind), you could conceivably get them to break and flee! If you CAN crack this nut (or choose to at all, rather than ignoring it) without dashing your brains out against it, it will be the end of his army, in all likelihood.

What you REALLY need to watch out for is if your opponent puts Teclis in there...with Lore of Life. Not fun.

Anytime the enemy has a massive deathstar unit, use Sabretusks to block them. Get right up in their grill and make it so they can't contribute without charging your kitty. Which will leave them out of position.

2 sabretusks can pretty much garuntee a unit is doing nothing constructive for 2 turns. use those 2 turns to kill the rest of the army and avoid the unit till the game ends or you have a flank charge.


Ogres shouldn't ever be offensive with their magic, ogre magic is purely defensive in nature. Gutmagic + Heavens can give you some excellent buffs and debuffs to work with. Comet is useful if you get it but not a major focus.

Trollguts will seriously hamper any attempts to hurt you, as will toothcracker. A lvl4 is very likely to get Trollguts(87%ish IIRC) which can make the entire army impossible to kill.


Elves can hit hard, but they can't take a hit at all. If they fail to kill you and start taking hits they go away fast.

All great advice. I have some questions still:

I had an Ironblaster, but it doesn't seem to be very effective against groups of enemies. Single target beasties, sure, but big blocks of infantry it doesn't seem to do too much. Am I doing something wrong with it? Should I try a Scraplauncher next time I face these guys?

I'm still new, so trying to get those kitties in position has been a bit tricky for me, but I think I'm getting there.

I did have a Lvl4 and tried a mix of buff/offensive spells to a somewhat ok effect. Near the beginning of the game, he had a line of archers in front of his Swordmasters, and I cast Braingobbler on them to make them roll for Panic test. It would have been awesome if not for the BSB re-roll. So, I had a good idea, it just didn't happen.

I plan on getting a Firebelly and a Stonehorn/Thundertusk soon. So maybe we'll see what we can do those.

Aside from the 6 leadbelchers I'm running I just don't seem to have a whole lot of range to strip them with.

And smashing my Mournfang into them would be satisfying, I don't see how the d3 impact hits can make that much of a difference. After that, they just get shredded.

Again, thanks for the advice guys.

Trappers thin down hordes.
50 points to make 30 guys take dangerous tests? That's pretty good. 6 kills (average) is 90 points of enemies taken out for 50 points. Do that a few times and try and get a flank charge.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Trappers thin down hordes.
50 points to make 30 guys take dangerous tests? That's pretty good. 6 kills (average) is 90 points of enemies taken out for 50 points. Do that a few times and try and get a flank charge.

-Matt

To be honest, I reckon you could just feed them gnoblars. I forgot Ogres have them. Say you deploy the Gnoblars 5 wide, so as to get as many ranks as possible. Only 7 of the Swordmasters will be able to get into BtB contact, so there'll only be 29 attacks. Heh, only. But the Swordmasters still will only be killing, on average, around 22. Another 20 or so in the unit (i.e. four ranks) will ensure that they still remain Steadfast and therefore, with the General and BSB nearby, they should stay in combat. I don't know the exact points value, but I imagine that about 45 Gnoblars is not going to cost a lot.

Of course, your opponent will be trying to avoid such a situation, as it's fairly obvious what you'll be doing with said unit, but it's up to your generalship to swing the battle in your favour.

Hmm. I like this idea. I don't have any gnoblars at the moment, and haven't used them yet. So what would be a better choice: smaller tar pit trapper units or large blocks of them?

 magless wrote:
All great advice. I have some questions still:

I had an Ironblaster, but it doesn't seem to be very effective against groups of enemies. Single target beasties, sure, but big blocks of infantry it doesn't seem to do too much. Am I doing something wrong with it? Should I try a Scraplauncher next time I face these guys?

I'm still new, so trying to get those kitties in position has been a bit tricky for me, but I think I'm getting there.

I did have a Lvl4 and tried a mix of buff/offensive spells to a somewhat ok effect. Near the beginning of the game, he had a line of archers in front of his Swordmasters, and I cast Braingobbler on them to make them roll for Panic test. It would have been awesome if not for the BSB re-roll. So, I had a good idea, it just didn't happen.

I plan on getting a Firebelly and a Stonehorn/Thundertusk soon. So maybe we'll see what we can do those.

Aside from the 6 leadbelchers I'm running I just don't seem to have a whole lot of range to strip them with.

And smashing my Mournfang into them would be satisfying, I don't see how the d3 impact hits can make that much of a difference. After that, they just get shredded.

Again, thanks for the advice guys.

Cannons are for killing large single targets generally, not units of normal dudes. Don't get the Scraplauncher, the Ironblaster fills a hole. The Scraplauncher does what normal ogres do, just worse.

Generally, braingobbler will never be cast. its almost never useful. Bonecruncher can be useful but thats it for the Gutmagic offensive spells. Avoid the Maw too, its bad if it misfires.

Generally, Gutmagic is about casting Trollguts, Bullgorger, Toothcracker, and Spinemarrow. Focus your energy at those spells. Maybe cast Bonecruncher against a unit of Knights or Braingobbler a unit to draw some dispel dice out but nothing more. Bonecruncher is effective against units with good armor saves, like any of the HE heavy cavalry. It can cause a couple wounds here and there.


Mournfangs are effective, but don't hit their Swordmasters or White Lions with them except in the flank. They will chew up Spearmen and guys in the flank like nobodies business. If you give them HA, Ironfists, and the Dragonhide banner. Rerolling 1s for 2+ armor saves make str 3 attacks useless. It takes something like 450+ str3 attacks(even with SoA rerolls to hit) to kill a single Mournfang with the DHB.

A unit of 4 mournfang can do the following.

4d3 impact hits. Averaging to 8 hits that will wound on 2s(rerolling 1s from DHB) with no piddly little elf armor saves.

Then each Mournfang has 3 Str4 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and wound. And 4 str5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit and wound. Thats a total of 12 str 4 and 18 str5 attacks.

Meanwhile the mournfangs also reroll 1s to save, on 2+ armor thats pretty significant.


If there are swordmasters, hit them in the flank. It will significantly reduce the attacks made back against you. If you have Toothcracker up on the Mournfangs the Swordmasters will need 4s to wound, and you'll have a 4+ armor and 6+ parry to bounce them. Or 4+ regen if you got Trollguts up.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Cannons are for killing large single targets generally, not units of normal dudes. Don't get the Scraplauncher, the Ironblaster fills a hole. The Scraplauncher does what normal ogres do, just worse.

Generally, braingobbler will never be cast. its almost never useful. Bonecruncher can be useful but thats it for the Gutmagic offensive spells. Avoid the Maw too, its bad if it misfires.

Generally, Gutmagic is about casting Trollguts, Bullgorger, Toothcracker, and Spinemarrow. Focus your energy at those spells. Maybe cast Bonecruncher against a unit of Knights or Braingobbler a unit to draw some dispel dice out but nothing more. Bonecruncher is effective against units with good armor saves, like any of the HE heavy cavalry. It can cause a couple wounds here and there.


Mournfangs are effective, but don't hit their Swordmasters or White Lions with them except in the flank. They will chew up Spearmen and guys in the flank like nobodies business. If you give them HA, Ironfists, and the Dragonhide banner. Rerolling 1s for 2+ armor saves make str 3 attacks useless. It takes something like 450+ str3 attacks(even with SoA rerolls to hit) to kill a single Mournfang with the DHB.

A unit of 4 mournfang can do the following.

4d3 impact hits. Averaging to 8 hits that will wound on 2s(rerolling 1s from DHB) with no piddly little elf armor saves.

Then each Mournfang has 3 Str4 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and wound. And 4 str5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit and wound. Thats a total of 12 str 4 and 18 str5 attacks.

Meanwhile the mournfangs also reroll 1s to save, on 2+ armor thats pretty significant.


If there are swordmasters, hit them in the flank. It will significantly reduce the attacks made back against you. If you have Toothcracker up on the Mournfangs the Swordmasters will need 4s to wound, and you'll have a 4+ armor and 6+ parry to bounce them. Or 4+ regen if you got Trollguts up.

Ok. Thats kind of what I thought. So I'll keep my Ironblaster in the back and snipe at single priority targets.

Again, this was only my 3rd game, 2nd with magic. I decided to give it a whirl and see what I could maybe make happen. But I think I will stick with the buffs from here on out primarily.
Along these same lines, where do people usually put their slaughtermasters or butchers? Do they stay on their own? Go with the bulls? I'm just not sure where to stick them. Actually, I have this same issue with all my characters (BSB and Firebelly).

Being new to this whole thing there were some rules that I didn't play correctly or just forgot about. I didn't realize that with all the armor bonuses combined, Mournfangs should have a 2+. I almost always forgot the rerolls from the Dragonhide banner. I need to make myself a better army list with reminders on it I think. lol
Somehow, I also missed that Leadbelchers have d6 multiple shots. We were playing it as d3 for some reason. When I saw that in my book last nite, I was flabbergasted. I even looked up the errata/faq to make sure it wasn't a typo. So knowing that might help to do a bit more damage.

From what I gather then, I should run my Mournfangs in a single rank? 4 side-by-side? Or does the 2nd rank get all those attacks as well?

Only the first rank of mournfangs gets all their attacks. Impact hits and mount attacks don't get to be made as supporting attacks, and the impacts and mount where the real teeth of the mournfang are.

 magless wrote:
Hmm. I like this idea. I don't have any gnoblars at the moment, and haven't used them yet. So what would be a better choice: smaller tar pit trapper units or large blocks of them?

Well, you want enough to hold them up for at least one phase. If they can wipe the unit out (or make it flee) in one round of combat then it's useless, because you charge in (on your turn) and they wipe you out (in your turn) and then get to reform and move as normal in their next turn.

IF you just want to distract them, run units of gnoblars 2 wide and 5 deep.
Swordmasters "only" get 16 attacks, and on average kill them all.
Congrats swordmasters, you just got 25 points. Line up several such 25 point units.
If you have the depth, you could even go 1 wide and 10 deep. With only 12 attacks, on average 1-2 gnoblars would survive!
Don't forget to stand and shoot.

-Maty