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Ok guys, I planned to take a gun drone unit with a commander with drone controller, then I looked right below at pirhanas and realized with one slot I could have both!!

Here is what I am looking at

A pirahana costs (point cost removed, they cost...14 points less than a unit of 4 guns drones), and comes with 2 gun drones that can be detached. More than half the cost of the pirahana is in those the dang drones!

So why not buy 4-5 pirhanas, detach the drones as one big unit the commander joins?

Here is my plan!

Commander - drone controller, 2 marker drones, burst cannon, (4 shots), cyclic cannon (3 shots) - this build maximizes the volume of fire, or maybe a build with the target lock so he can shoot at other targets?

4 pirahanas with fusion blasters - 200pts (comes with 8 gun drones) When you detach them the 4 pirahanas are just over half that cost, not a bad cost for throw away tank hunters, that isnt bad!

edit 2 - confirmed, the drones form one mass unit when disembarking from a vehicle squadron (read drone rules on page 33 of codex)

edited it to remove actual costs....think i did it right this time.


What you guys think?

Hey! Don't be listing point values!

How are you making all the detached drones become one big unit? Is that how it works in the new codex?

 DeffDred wrote:
Hey! Don't be listing point values!

Yeah, GW's lawyers don't care about what is and isn't legal (game mechanics can not be copyrighted, so posting point values is perfectly legal) and the forum owners probably can't afford lawyers.

Theorius wrote:
So why not buy 4-5 pirhanas, detach the drones as one big unit the commander joins?

Because it's a waste of a commander. Gun drones have twin-linked weapons already, so even BS 3 (normal crisis suits with drone controllers) gives you a 75% chance to hit, and BS 4 (through markerlights) is up to 90%. Going for BS 5 is just a huge waste of points for minimal gain. The only reason to spend a lot of points on getting BS 5 drone is if you're using marker drones, and Piranhas can't take those.

 Peregrine wrote:
game mechanics can not be copyrighted, so posting point values is perfectly legal) and the forum owners probably can't afford lawyers.

Source?

Or you keep the drones and go flat out across the board and flank the enemy now that 1 piranha puts out 8 str 5 sttacks with 4 that are twinlinked. pew pew

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Hey! Don't be listing point values!

Yeah, GW's lawyers don't care about what is and isn't legal (game mechanics can not be copyrighted, so posting point values is perfectly legal) and the forum owners probably can't afford lawyers.

Regardless of legality posting point values is strictly against Dakka policy

 zaxz wrote:
Or you keep the drones and go flat out across the board and flank the enemy now that 1 piranha puts out 8 str 5 sttacks with 4 that are twinlinked. pew pew

the problem I have with that is all your eggs in one basic, when you could split em!

be in range of an ethereal and get +1 shots! (i plan personnaly to take an ethereal for my other hq)


How are you making all the detached drones become one big unit? Is that how it works in the new codex?

I dunno actually....the way i read it since the 4 pirhanas are a unit, if you detach all the drones from them they make one unit, i dont see why they would become 4 seperate units, but when I get home I will re-read the entry as you may be right....and then I am a sad panda....

Because it's a waste of a commander. Gun drones have twin-linked weapons already, so even BS 3 (normal crisis suits with drone controllers) gives you a 75% chance to hit, and BS 4 (through markerlights) is up to 90%. Going for BS 5 is just a huge waste of points for minimal gain. The only reason to spend a lot of points on getting BS 5 drone is if you're using marker drones, and Piranhas can't take those.

Drone controller is super cheap and confers the bs of the commander (5) to the drones. The commander will take 2 marker drones himself so I will have 2 bs 5 markerlights from the unit. I dont see why i would need more than that as I plan to do rolling lights.

The unit is then a nice torrent of fire with jsj around the firebase for some mobilty to wittle down units before they hit the kroot wall.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
game mechanics can not be copyrighted, so posting point values is perfectly legal) and the forum owners probably can't afford lawyers.

Source?

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it.

GW has copyright over the exact text used in their books (you can't just copy/paste the full rulebook, just like you can't copy/paste an entire novel) but that does NOT include the concepts expressed by that text. Posting the game mechanics, including point costs (which are just part of the rules of the game) in your own words is perfectly legal. GW is just demanding something they aren't entitled to and using the threat of expensive legal bills to enforce it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Theorius wrote:
Drone controller is super cheap and confers the bs of the commander (5) to the drones.

The commander, on the other hand, is NOT cheap. You're spending 100+ points on the commander and then wasting it on a gun drone squad that benefits much less from it than a marker drone squad, or a support commander (tank hunters/twin-linked/no-cover bonuses) attached to a key shooting unit.

I find it hard to believe that you could simply rewrite the 40k rulebook in your own words and distribute it for profit
edit - British copyright law doesn't seem to cover wargames at all, though they do cover board games:

Source

[copyright can be granted] not for the idea of the game as such but for the way in which the idea is expressed - i.e. the explanation of the rules and the design of the board and any novel counters

Which in my view would cover points costs, but not the general idea of a futuristic battle between mankind and aliens/baddies.

 BryllCream wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you could simply rewrite the 40k rulebook in your own words and distribute it for profit.

Legally you could (at least for the pure game mechanics, you couldn't use any of the background fiction/pictures/etc). However GW would bankrupt you with legal bills if you tried to defend it in court, and the market for the rules of 40k (which suck) without any of the models or fiction elements would be pretty minimal.

Now, patents are an entirely different issue, if GW was able to patent any of 40k's game mechanics and those patents have not yet expired, but that would apply to making your own product, not talking about it on a forum.

 BryllCream wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you could simply rewrite the 40k rulebook in your own words and distribute it for profit.

Who the hell would buy an unofficial rule book which uses different language lol.

 logg_frogg wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Hey! Don't be listing point values!

Yeah, GW's lawyers don't care about what is and isn't legal (game mechanics can not be copyrighted, so posting point values is perfectly legal) and the forum owners probably can't afford lawyers.

Regardless of legality posting point values is strictly against Dakka policy

Then Dakka needs to police their Army list boards on a constant basis since everyone lists points for the units. Saying that listing model A costs X points is jsut as bad as saying Model A x12 = (Xx12) [And no - I didn't not see the original values listed]

As for the OP - yeah - that is why some of us think the piranha are extremely useful. People tend to overlook the extras that some of the units get. It is how some of us make very scary armies...lol

 BryllCream wrote:
Which in my view would cover points costs, but not the general idea of a futuristic battle between mankind and aliens/baddies.

That's not what it means. The "way in which the idea is expressed" refers to the actual words. Let's use your post as an example:

"Which in my view would cover points costs, but not the general idea of a futuristic battle between mankind and aliens/baddies."

This sentence contains both an idea (that copyright law covers point costs but not broad themes) and a specific expression of an idea (the exact words of the sentence). Copyright law allows me to create my own sentence expressing the same idea, but does not allow me to copy/paste your exact words into a book on copyright law and gaming.

So, in the context of 40k the idea is the game mechanic (including point costs) and the way in which it is expressed is the exact text of the rulebook. For example, my BattleMace 9000 game could copy the exact mechanic of the Shrouded USR (giving a +2 bonus on cover saves) but I could NOT simply copy/paste the Shrouded USR text from GW's rulebook into my own, I'd have to re-write the concept of giving a 2+ cover bonus in my own words.

So, Back on Topic, I like idea, except that i dont like the idea of throw away units. I do like the drone commander though! I plan on running a 6 marker drone and 6 gun drone squad with a commander that has a target lock and VRT(just in case). JSJ on 6 2+ markerlights saved my ass last game i played.

I had missile sides that ran away the previous turn get to use 4 of those markers to get up to bs5 to kill a unit that would have either tied or won the game for him. He thought they were safe until my scared sides were more accurate than the rest of my army lol the gun drones give you some extra fire and some extra wounds to protect your comander and MLDs from getting shot or assaulted

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Theorius wrote:
Drone controller is super cheap and confers the bs of the commander (5) to the drones.

The commander, on the other hand, is NOT cheap. You're spending 100+ points on the commander and then wasting it on a gun drone squad that benefits much less from it than a marker drone squad, or a support commander (tank hunters/twin-linked/no-cover bonuses) attached to a key shooting unit.

Theorius wrote:
If i spent 150 pts worse case on a commander and put him in a unit of about 100 pts of drones how is that not cost effective if I have outfitted my commander for his role of mass accurate shots and put him in a unit that performs as such while retaining his mobility.

BS 2 twin-linked = 50% chance to hit.

BS 5 twin-linked = 97% chance to hit.

So, round the BS 5 drones up to 100% and you're doubling the firepower of the unit by attaching the commander, but more than doubling the point cost. You will get more firepower by spending the commander's points on another unit of BS 2 drones instead, while gaining a massive increase in durability (tons of extra wounds).

 Peregrine wrote:

Theorius wrote:
If i spent 150 pts worse case on a commander and put him in a unit of about 100 pts of drones how is that not cost effective if I have outfitted my commander for his role of mass accurate shots and put him in a unit that performs as such while retaining his mobility.

BS 2 twin-linked = 50% chance to hit.

BS 5 twin-linked = 97% chance to hit.

So, round the BS 5 drones up to 100% and you're doubling the firepower of the unit by attaching the commander, but more than doubling the point cost. You will get more firepower by spending the commander's points on another unit of BS 2 drones instead, while gaining a massive increase in durability (tons of extra wounds).

I agree! but where are you going to get this other unit of bs2 drones? I play tau and the fast attack slot is taken, I need apthfinders, I need a flyer and I want drones, but why take just drones when I can get pirahan AND drones!

what unit is better for a commander to go to? 3 man crisis suits? you dont have the same amount of padding as you get from all those drones, and if you take crisis suits and drones plus commander you are making one massive unit!

Theorius wrote:
I agree! but where are you going to get this other unit of bs2 drones?

Remove the awful flyer and suddenly you have room for drones. Also, stealth suits can provide similar firepower but with 2+ cover saves.

what unit is better for a commander to go to?

Broadsides, where it gives them tank hunters. Or a Riptide, where it makes their weapons twin-linked and ignore cover.

 Peregrine wrote:

Theorius wrote:
I agree! but where are you going to get this other unit of bs2 drones?

Remove the awful flyer and suddenly you have room for drones. Also, stealth suits can provide similar firepower but with 2+ cover saves.

what unit is better for a commander to go to?

Broadsides, where it gives them tank hunters. Or a Riptide, where it makes their weapons twin-linked and ignore cover.

The flyer - I think its good, the interceptor drones are sweet!!!! as is the networked marker, is it good enough? i dont know....the drones may be better but i personally am gonna give it a shot! I like it and I like the look (it has grown on me)

Stealthsuits - Cant justify the cost or the slot. I want two rip tides and I need a crisis suit team for plasma guns/ missiles


Commander slots - Now your speaking my language! I have looked into both options and i think they are good!

Riptide - Id love to give him reroll misses and ignore cover plus tank hunter! but thats alot of eggs! i plan to try some variation of this myself. I also think it then allows you to take missile drones which would be sweet but how many points we talking now? 400pts in one "unit"
Broadsides - I dont like broadsides, they are not mobile but if my meta is flier heavy i may take them for skyfire...dunno though its not likely ---My heavy choices will be - Skyray, longstrike, sniper drones - The skyray MAY become a second hammerhead....but the skyfire networked markerlites (2 of em) and skyfire misssiles are to awesome to give up I think

 Peregrine wrote:

So, round the BS 5 drones up to 100% and you're doubling the firepower of the unit by attaching the commander, but more than doubling the point cost. You will get more firepower by spending the commander's points on another unit of BS 2 drones instead, while gaining a massive increase in durability (tons of extra wounds).

But that other unit of drones will take a FA slot.

Give commander drone controller, put 3 piranhas in a squad together and then detach drones before the piranhas move. Have the 6 gun drones be at bs 5 str 5 assault 2 ap 5 shots. Profit? Basically 2 fast attack choices in one.

 Nafarious wrote:
Give commander drone controller, put 3 piranhas in a squad together and then detach drones before the piranhas move. Have the 6 gun drones be at bs 5 str 5 assault 2 ap 5 shots. Profit? Basically 2 fast attack choices in one.

thats....what my thread is proposing? but i think 4 is best!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
How are you making all the detached drones become one big unit? Is that how it works in the new codex?

Eldarain - I confirmed in the codex the vehicle squadrons drones make one big unit!!!! (page 33 of codex in the drone rules))

updated original post.

 Eldarain wrote:
How are you making all the detached drones become one big unit? Is that how it works in the new codex?

I wanna know too

davou wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
How are you making all the detached drones become one big unit? Is that how it works in the new codex?

I wanna know too

davou i answered this already in the post above and updated the primary post.

Page 33 of the codex under drone rules it states drones detaching from vehicle squadrons make one unit, so its pure awesome.