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So how does it involve false gods and idolism if you are not actually worshipping it?

i'd quote the actual passage in the Bible but i doubt anyone wants to hear that so i'll give you the gist.

When Moses came back with the 10 Commandments his followers were worshipping golden idols. His rage (and thus God's rage) upon this act was not becuase they were building golden statues but because they began worshipping them in place of God.

Moses wouldnt have given a hoot about it if they were just keeping themselves busy by crafting golden statues but not worship them. Theres a difference between a hobby and a religious act. A HUGE difference.

I know many religious folks. I also know many wargamers.
The two overlap considerably.

Honestly, I don't know that it's that big of a deal. All the religious folks I know don't care at all about the contents of 40K, any more than they'd care about the contents of, say, a novel set in an alternate Earth. They know what's fiction and what isn't, and given that they're pretty chill fellows anyway, don't mind the occasional jibe. Heck, one of them runs a 40K page and consistently takes the mick out of pictures that try to get you to "share for Jesus" by replacing said Jesus with Sanguinius.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

So it got me thinking: are there any people out there who play the games, read the books or do anything 40k related that still maintain their religious aspects of life? Personally, I'm a Catholic, and though I love how much fun the lore is, I don't go around preaching the word of the Emperor (well, unless its with certain company like other fans)

Same here, I'm a believer. I dunno why people sometimes get mad 'cause there is this "God-Emprah - Chaos Gods - Eldar Gods " thing.
It's not like IRL I'll start to worship one of them.
Sometimes I think people are simply stupid or too mind closed (no offense, it's MY opinion).

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

So it got me thinking: are there any people out there who play the games, read the books or do anything 40k related that still maintain their religious aspects of life? Personally, I'm a Catholic, and though I love how much fun the lore is, I don't go around preaching the word of the Emperor (well, unless its with certain company like other fans)

Same here, I'm a believer. I dunno why people sometimes get mad 'cause there is this "God-Emprah - Chaos Gods - Eldar Gods " thing.
It's not like IRL I'll start to worship one of them.
Sometimes I think people are simply stupid or too mind closed (no offense, it's MY opinion).

And my opinion conflicts with yours! You offend me!
jk

In all seriousness, thats why most people get "offended" as sad as it sounds. Their idea, no matter how dumb or smart, is challenged in some way shape or form so they

I am Christian (not affiliated with a particular sect but I'm well versed and consider myself a practicing Christian) and I absolutely never had a problem with 40k, in fact my mother who is very very religious actually got me into the hobby through the Ragnar novels, back around 3rd edition I had a Space Marine army who worshiped a messianic figure and bore his image after seeing it before a battle (Charlemagne lore). My leader even had angel wings and stuff before the sanguinary guard came out, oddly enough the only problem I ever had was taking into a nearby FLGS and having one of the owners accuse me of "preaching" (nothing in my army had anything remotely preachy unless you count a cross as an army symbol "preachy"" also I was 14 who the hell was I going to convert?)

Sadly I forgot about my army and went to college, came back to find out I apparently had put them in brake fluid to strip the paint, and forgot about them in the corner of my room for 4 years....... needless to say the army has been excommunicated and purged

honestly whenever someone takes offense to the lore of 40k I tend to pull out a picture of the Big-E on my phone and ask people to imagine him with a beard. this has actually started a joke among my group of friends calling the Big-E "Jesus with a shave" that tends to work for me.

I waver between Christianity and Agnosticism, but it always seemed to me that the main clash between 40K, which I love, and Christianity, with which I sometimes identify, is NOT the "imagery" or back story or anything, it's the bits in the bible where Jesus tells his followers not to be a slave to material stuff, sell all they have and give the money to the poor, versus my unstoppable tendency to spend ridiculous amounts of money on Forge World goodies, new army books and enormous plastic tanks.

I suppose, with me, Mammon won in the end

40k conflict's with my atheism. Trying to convince me there is all these chaos god's floating around.

Oh wait, nope, I can figure out the difference between fiction and faith ^^

 Mythra wrote:
I bet God has a level 15 Ranger and runs Ultra Marines. He also didn't like the Star Wars prequels.

Please. Probably plays a Chaotic Evil Sorcerer and Nurgle CSM with daemons just for a change of pace and a laugh. Even God probably gags when he hears about the Ultramarines.

JWhex wrote:
In middle school I remember being sternly warned about the danger of Ouija Boards. This was in a church that was not otherwise, openly what you would characterize as fundamentalist.

I'm finding this thread really quite interesting, and I respect the OP for managing to keep his cool in that situation (I'm not sure I could have). But I have nothing constructive to add to this discussion, so I'll throw in a random fact that has been bouncing around my head all day:

Ouija Boards were originally regarded as harmless parlour games, with no connection to the occult. The trademark is owned by Hasbro Inc. (the people behind Monopoly!).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fusOzhc2ciA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija

 Mythra wrote:
It is like the people who condemn Harry Potter b/c it has witch craft in it. If you can't draw a line between fantasy and reality I don't think your all there.

It might also depend on your view of god tho. Is he a strict harsh god that burns everything with fire or is he someone who hang back and laugh at a joke (like the platypus).

"...and Harry Potter and all his wizard friends went straight to Hell for practising Witchcraft."

Many people arn't aware what real witchcraft is and to label Harry Potter as anything close to it is naive.

Having seen real Wickens I know what the real thing is sorta like. Not pretty.

I have a mormon friend who owns a game store. The funniest moment I've seen in his store is when he first opened it and some of the friends from his church came in to see the place.

They walked around the store looking at the Dungeons and Dragons stuff. Looked at the Magic the Gathering cards, looked at the Warmachine and Malifaux stuff. Walked by the Flames of War stuff, and looked at some of the board games. Then made their way back up to the counter.

As they approached the counter, one of them noticed the wrack that had the Codex Daemons of Chaos sitting on it.

This guy picks up the book, looks through it, puts it down, and then proceeds to tell my friend that he should be ashamed of himself for promoting Demons and anti christian beliefs while calling himself a christian....

the whole store was like

...so my friend, without missing a beat, tells him "What are you talking about? Our beliefs say that daemons look like regular human beings, not the silly things in that book!"

The mormon guy thinks for a minute and says " you know what? you're right!...Cool store, see you at priesthood meeting on Sunday?"

everyone in the store was like

Meh, IMHO zealously religious people should take that baseball bat out of their arses...

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
Meh, IMHO zealously religious people should take that baseball bat out of their arses...

Thats a little insulting, especially when being zealous automatically makes you a d-bag in some people's minds.

Its no different than being zealous about other things. Like football or wargaming. Its something to get excited about.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
As a Christian, Vineheart, don't you have a religious duty to save nonbelievers from hell?

Many christians believe in universal salvation; i.e., that Christ's sacrifice was for the whole of mankind. It's a fundamental teaching of the Catholic church for example. Only God can save you from hell through His grace; thankfully unless you're a total ^#!&%@* He already has.

The idea that a loving God will send good people and unbaptized babies to an eternal torture chamber for calling on him in the wrong name is subscribed to primarily by American evangelicals. For some baffling reason this is portrayed as the norm for christians in the media because it's 'Merican!

 Evileyes wrote:
40k conflict's with my atheism. Trying to convince me there is all these chaos god's floating around.

Oh wait, nope, I can figure out the difference between fiction and faith ^^

Well yes, but that's why you are an atheist in the first place...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Boggy Man wrote:

Well I applaud burning every copy of the prequels, no matter the motivation.

Amen to that!

Its that God judges people by the measure in which they knew him.

A baby or child under a certain age isn't completely self aware of the difference between right and wrong. So they go into heaven if they die.

To say American Evangelicals think good people and unborn babies get sent to hell is flat wrong just so you know. We don't think that.


Its if a person knows what they are doing is wrong or not thats important. A 2 year old doesn't know its wrong to throw a temper tantrum but a 5 year old does.

And no, being good by human standards is not enough to get into heaven. The bible is clear on that. But god does make himself known to everyone, how a person reacts to that determines the fate of their soul.

Grey Templar wrote:
Thats a little insulting, especially when being zealous automatically makes you a d-bag in some people's minds.

Its no different than being zealous about other things. Like football or wargaming. Its something to get excited about.

As I said before, this is my personal opinion. You shouldn't criticize me 'cause I play a wargame where there are Gods (who I don't worship IRL) and Daemons and I won't criticize your lifestyle. Simple as that.

Boggy Man wrote:
The idea that a loving God will send good people and unbaptized babies to an eternal torture chamber for calling on him in the wrong name is subscribed to primarily by American evangelicals. For some baffling reason this is portrayed as the norm for christians in the media because it's 'Merican!

Well, look, Calvinisms says that your doom is already written by Jesus, who, when he died, chose who will be saved and who will be condamned.

I think that every religion, every religious moviment, have "flaws". A believer should know what is wrong and what is right in his religion .
Again, IMHO.

There's a difference between saying "I think religious people are crazy" and saying "I think zealously religious people have a large stick shoved up their rectum"

You have conflated beaing Zealous with being absolutly Batgak crazy, which it is not.

I'm not overly bothered by it but some people will take it to heart. So maybe watch your phrasing in the future.

Wow, this blew up fast (as anything about religion will do).

I grew up in a mixed-religion household -- my mom is LDS, my dad is Pentecostal -- in the heart of religious opression (Salt Lake City, for those who missed the SLC Punk reference).

Not only do we have the crazy Mormon families who couldn't watch Toy Story because it somehow promoted idol worship, but we have just about every other faith with equal zealotry. It's a hotbed of religious intolerance, at best.

Anyway, I ended up going non-denominational Christian, which brings me to my "If you're Christian," point of my post...

In Romans 14:14-15, the author states that nothing is unclean in itself, but if another Christian takes offense to what you're doing (eating, actually, but I believe the question was posed about eating something that Jews were forbidden to eat) you're not doing it in love and you should stop in their presence.

TL;DR: If you're Christian, and another of your Christian friends is offended by you playing 40k, simply don't do it in their presence. Thus sayeth the Apostle Paul.

Yeah, its a case of respecting others who have different preferences regarding the same faith.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There's a difference between saying "I think religious people are crazy" and saying "I think zealously religious people have a large stick shoved up their rectum"

You have conflated beaing Zealous with being absolutly Batgak crazy, which it is not.

I'm not overly bothered by it but some people will take it to heart. So maybe watch your phrasing in the future.

It happens... some people always assume that every Christian is Westboro Baptist, and some Atheists always believe anyone who is religious at all is part of whatever faith did whatever atrocity. I've had to defend myself when a friend tied my faith to the 9/11 attacks -- she didn't back down until I asked if she was the same kind of Atheist that shot up the kids in Columbine.

So, I should respect their wishes... but they can't respect mine? So, what, I can't play in my house with my friends 'cause they can be offended?
THIS, people, is the problem. I know, we should "turn the other cheek" but, if they're christian too, shouldn't they too?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There's a difference between saying "I think religious people are crazy" and saying "I think zealously religious people have a large stick shoved up their rectum"

You have conflated beaing Zealous with being absolutly Batgak crazy, which it is not.

I'm not overly bothered by it but some people will take it to heart. So maybe watch your phrasing in the future.

Overzealous people aren't the same as believers, IMHO, they exaggerate everything. Yeah, their ideas, but their ideas shouldn' ruin my life...

No, it applies to them too. But what they do is their business and between them and God, not you.

You can only effect what you do, so you can make the choice to either be respectful and not play around them/discuss it. Or you can continue and not do anything. Its about being the meaker individual. You can be the better man and be respectful of their sensibilities, you will be rewarded for it at another time.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, it applies to them too. But what they do is their business and between them and God, not you.

You can only effect what you do, so you can make the choice to either be respectful and not play around them/discuss it. Or you can continue and not do anything. Its about being the meaker individual. You can be the better man and be respectful of their sensibilities, you will be rewarded for it at another time.

The thing is: I already do that, but heck, on let's say 2-3 games for week they came and ruin them 2/3 of the time. I'm respectful, but I'm human, not a Saint. That said, I only wish that they could be respectful towards my friends and me like we are towards 'em.

You can confront them over it after a reasonable period of time, but not untill after you have given them the chance to themselves backoff.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, it applies to them too. But what they do is their business and between them and God, not you.

You can only effect what you do, so you can make the choice to either be respectful and not play around them/discuss it. Or you can continue and not do anything. Its about being the meaker individual. You can be the better man and be respectful of their sensibilities, you will be rewarded for it at another time.

The thing is: I already do that, but heck, on let's say 2-3 games for week they came and ruin them 2/3 of the time. I'm respectful, but I'm human, not a Saint. That said, I only wish that they could be respectful towards my friends and me like we are towards 'em.

Talk to them about it. "Hey, I respect that you don't want me discussing my games around you, but I still play the games... If you show up and I'm actively playing, I'm not going to stop playing for you. If I'm not actively playing, then I won't play." Also, if you have regular game nights, let them know that they won't want to be around at those times.

I was also the only straight-edge kid in a crew full of stoners. When the pipes came out, I'd respectfully leave and find something else to do until I figured they were done -- eventually they caught on and didn't smoke around me, because they valued my friendship more.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You can confront them over it after a reasonable period of time, but not untill after you have given them the chance to themselves backoff.

I gave 'em chances, believe me, but it's like they enjoy be disrespectful towards us. I dunno, I'll follow your tip though

Here's another way to look at it.:

Warhammer 40K is just the Book of Revelation happening in the 41st millennium. The Emperor is obviously the Antichrist, and is exalted and now worshiped because he "came back to life" following a mortal wound. If you don't worship him you die. Of course, as the emperor's foremost warriors the Grey Knights get his number, 666. He also has a Dragon working for him, who helps carry out his will. Each xenos race corresponds to a bowl/trumpet judgement on mankind, as do some of the more horrible events of the 41st millennium. Chaos is comprised of, well, daemons. Satan's just orchestrating the Imperium/Chaos battle and God's sending orks/tau/nids and waiting until the final battle to save the faithful and bring in a new earth/galaxy.

Totally just kidding here, but I'd love to use that argument on someone someday

It's just a game.