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As an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church (that even sounds like a Genestealer Cult, doesn't it?) and a High Priest/Ubermensch of the Church of the Sub-Genius, it is my task and calling only to point the way towards salvation, not to drag the unwilling towards it.

If you are not prepared to "get right with Bob", then Bob isn't going to reserve your place with the Stark Fist of Rapture.

40K, though, is something of a minor act of devotion, it's a great way to build one's Slack, and to share one's Slack with others. The creation and promulgation of Slack is, of course, of the utmost importance to a Sub-Genii, and anything that brings you money, booze and/or sex, with a minimum amount of headaches, is a great source of Slack.

Eldercaveman wrote:
I would say that OP handled this situation very well, I wouldn't have remained in such a polite manner. And that is all the involvement I will have with this thread, as I like Dakka too much, to let my views on religion out here.

Agreed.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Matney X wrote:

she didn't back down until I asked if she was the same kind of Atheist that shot up the kids in Columbine.

Aside from there being very little (other than in the Christian media) about whether the two perpetrators of the Columbine massacre were atheists or not, I guess the "kind" of atheist you're referring to is:

"The kind that was remorselessly bullied into submission and sustained heavy psychological damage."

I'm fairly apathetic on the religious debate, but please use facts.

Agreed.

You've fallen into the same trap she has. You've assumed that one group, or member of said group represents that groups views. It's called generalisation, and is a simple way of slagging of any group by using a single person or action as the reason that said group is evil, good or so on.

They can't tell you what you can or can't do or say in your own home. If they show up to your home, or someone else's or anywhere really, where a game is actively happening, they can watch, and enjoy it for the game it is, or get pissy that the fictional characters that are only based on the game don't follow the same creed in their fictional universe, and leave. There is a limit. People on both sides should be aware and respectful of it. If he's really walking into places demanding people stop playing, he's a douchebag. Friend or not, I'd tell him to shove it.

Didnt follow anything past the op so that's what I'm replying to.

I'm Christian reformed and I like 40k, I'm trying to get my friend involved into it who is a pagan and a couple of other friends who are not religious at all. No one I've ever talked to has been offended by 40k, I don't see it as being any different then playing skyrim or any type of game that has different gods or deities. It is a game, that's all.

I will say that the few Mormon people I have had contact with are very critical of anything they don't agree with. I've had them talk to be about how bad my tattoos are, doesn't matter what they are they just don't like them. So you handled it very well and if he refuses to let you talk about it just dont hang out with him anymore.

Im Fairly devoutly catholic, and at no time has it ever been offensive to me. and im nothing a few years back at a catholic school i attended i had a conversation with the religion teacher because she was curious about the book i was reading. she is a mass daily catholic and found the whole basis of the imperium and the war fascinating and did some reading on her own. What im saying is that it will only offend someone who is to "over zealous" to not take it as it is, a game.

gh05tdemon wrote:
Im Fairly devoutly catholic, and at no time has it ever been offensive to me. and im nothing a few years back at a catholic school i attended i had a conversation with the religion teacher because she was curious about the book i was reading. she is a mass daily catholic and found the whole basis of the imperium and the war fascinating and did some reading on her own. What im saying is that it will only offend someone who is to "over zealous" to not take it as it is, a game.

I would counter with, "it's only offensive to someone looking to be offended."

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
I want to share an interesting experience I had a while back with a friend and the 40k Universe. I hope you guys bare with me and read on.
So one day I was sitting in the local library with a few friends, just chatting and the such. I got up and walked around the books for a bit, when I came across a Warhammer 40000 book. It was the Blood Ravens Omnibus, Dawn of War. I grabbed it and went to show my friends.
(Keep in mind that I'm the only 40k fan in my immediate group of friends.)
They asked me what the book was all about, and I decided that to give them a brief background info on the universe, I read the little story that comes on the first page of almost all Black Library books and W40K related articles, such as the rulebook. When I came to the part about the God-Emperor and his worship, one of my friends, who happens to be a Mormon, demanded I stop. Out of respect for him, I did. Later he asked me to never bring up this series again, and to please refrain from speaking about it in front of him. I must clarify that I was not taken aback from his request, and simply complied.
So it got me thinking: are there any people out there who play the games, read the books or do anything 40k related that still maintain their religious aspects of life? Personally, I'm a Catholic, and though I love how much fun the lore is, I don't go around preaching the word of the Emperor (well, unless its with certain company like other fans)
Has anybody else that you know been offended by this material? How have you handled it? I'd like to hear from the community on this matter, and I don't mean to start any religious rants or anything, I just wonder if anyone's gone through the same thing I have.

When I owned a game store a few years back, I had a Mormon Elder come in, he was on his way back home after his 2 years out and about doing the Elder thing. He stopped in to buy a full Eldar army, pre painted (someone sold it to me, to start something else) because he played before he left, and for 2 years he was not allowed (along with no TV, radio, newspaper, ect) So your friend was just being uptight.

On a side note, I'd like to commend all who have contributed to this thread as the discussion has remained thought-provoking yet civil on what can be a volatile subject. Kudos to all!

I know several people are unable to enjoy something without attaching some kind of religious significance to it, but they've never struck me as anything close to normal, be they Muslim or Christian or otherwise.

Hell, Tolkien considered Lord of the Rings an eminently Catholic book, despite it not really mentioning religion at all-- the themes of any story can resonate strongly with people of strongly religious backgrounds, just like people from less religious backgrounds.

 Psienesis wrote:
As an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church (that even sounds like a Genestealer Cult, doesn't it?) and a High Priest/Ubermensch of the Church of the Sub-Genius, it is my task and calling only to point the way towards salvation, not to drag the unwilling towards it.

If you are not prepared to "get right with Bob", then Bob isn't going to reserve your place with the Stark Fist of Rapture.

40K, though, is something of a minor act of devotion, it's a great way to build one's Slack, and to share one's Slack with others. The creation and promulgation of Slack is, of course, of the utmost importance to a Sub-Genii, and anything that brings you money, booze and/or sex, with a minimum amount of headaches, is a great source of Slack.

Love the Vampire earth series quote.

I just wanted to put my two cents in. I consider myself Roman Catholic. And I've never had a problem with the fluff, nor had a problem explaining the fluff to anybody i know that wanted to know about 40k. Maybe I've just been lucky enough not to meet anybody that is so uptight about a game. My advice is just remember that people are going to be offended no matter what, if they want to be offended. The best thing to do is "walk away with grace" by which I don't mean you actually have to walk away, so much as make it politely but absolutely clear, that the conversation is over.

And to the OP, good job on keeping your cool and your friend. And good job to Dakka on keeping their cool on the most touchy subject known to man. You've successfully played hot potato with a squig and nobody got bit.

Nevie wrote:
You've successfully played hot potato with a squig and nobody got bit.

It's only page 5, and Hitler hasn't been mentioned yet.

... oh f....

It is quite surprising to me actually how many of you are religious. Our club has none, none whatsoever, and from what we've seen from other clubs in the area, this trend continues.
Maybe it's because there are so many Americans on this site? Who knows?

 Boggy Man wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
As a Christian, Vineheart, don't you have a religious duty to save nonbelievers from hell?

Many christians believe in universal salvation; i.e., that Christ's sacrifice was for the whole of mankind. It's a fundamental teaching of the Catholic church for example. Only God can save you from hell through His grace; thankfully unless you're a total ^#!&%@* He already has.

The idea that a loving God will send good people and unbaptized babies to an eternal torture chamber for calling on him in the wrong name is subscribed to primarily by American evangelicals. For some baffling reason this is portrayed as the norm for christians in the media because it's 'Merican!

This is part of the issue with the term "Christian".

When convenient it is used in arguments like; "Look at how many Christians there are in the world/country/state/town/school, surely X is reasonable" (with X being whatever subject that currently benefits most from the logical fallacy of Appeal to Popularity).
On the other hand the term gets thrown right out when a Christian (for whatever reason) gets presented with an argument that shows a particular illogical, unpleasant or disagreeable aspect concerning "Christianity".
Suddenly Christians is no longer this big group anymore and instead counter-arguments like; "Those are not "true" Christians" gets presented.

This goes to show that some of the various denomination within the big "Christians" group have no more in common with each other than they have with entirely different religions. These differences are quite noticeable, and sometimes lead to violent conflict (see Northern Ireland, for example).

I personally have completely rejected the term "Christian" as being a sort of marketing ploy.

The litmus test of the term "Christianity" can be performed in the following way;

Say I have a married couple as personal friends and that that couple happens to be Mormons (not picking on Mormons here. Insert any denomination you like).
During a dinner party I present the couple to another friend of mine whom they haven't be introduced to yet.
I say; "Hey Joe. I would like you to meet X and Y. They are Jehovas Witnesses."
If X and Y, even for a second, feel a desire to correct my mistake and point out that they are actually Mormons, they have demonstrated the problem with the term "Christian".
In showing that the two denominations are not interchangeable, and that the differences are big enough to warrant a correction on my "mistake", they also show the fallaciousness in presenting "Christians" as a homogeneous whole.


PS. Please keep in mind that I am not picking particularly on Christians here. Substitute relevant words with "Muslims", "Shia" and "Sunni". It is equally relevant.

..

Some things do cross over between the sects, however.

 marv335 wrote:
From my point of view, its people who like one set of made up books objecting to another set of made up books.

Exalted, if I could exalt again I would.

Edit: also what's up? My first post was edited because I singled out a certain sect which has been singled out again several times since.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Some things do cross over between the sects, however.

I agree. Some things do indeed cross over.
My point is that enough things do not, to warrant not using the group as a whole.
Several physical activities (Soccer, Football, Rugby, Basketball, Australian Football and Handball, for example) have numerous cross overs yet we don't say it is the same game.

I'm a roman cathollic, but when we are speaking about 30/40k I'm all for "All-father", and my religious pov stay out of the perception...
I'm only pissed when people use "GOD Emperor" frases, mostly because of BJORN and a whole heresy deal....btw master of mankind - yes; GOD- no !!!

Hetelic wrote:

Firstly, and as an aside, I'm pretty certain that the number of the beast is commonly (wrongly) acknowledged as 666, when it is in fact 616. Can't remember exactly where I heard that though, so it may be wrong.

Steven Fry told us.

QI - Episode 10 "Divination"

I am personally not religious, but several members of my family are.

My father in particular is a Christian and he has known about my 40K interest for a long time (since I was about 10). He has never had a problem with the religious, demonic side of 40K (even when I played Chaos Marines as a teenager), mainly because we haven't really talked about it, but he once said that he only just tolerated me playing the game because of the violence portrayed in it.

He doesn't approve of the violent video games I play like borderlands or gears of war though.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

rohansoldier wrote:
I am personally not religious, but several members of my family are.

My father in particular is a Christian and he has known about my 40K interest for a long time (since I was about 10). He has never had a problem with the religious, demonic side of 40K (even when I played Chaos Marines as a teenager), mainly because we haven't really talked about it, but he once said that he only just tolerated me playing the game because of the violence portrayed in it.

He doesn't approve of the violent video games I play like borderlands or gears of war though.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Surely his disapproval of violence and the portrayal of such is a strictly personal opinion, and not motivated by his religious belief.
The god portrayed in the Bible (both new and old testament) habitually and consistently advocates the use of, and personally partake in, violent actions.

Steelmage99 wrote:

rohansoldier wrote:
I am personally not religious, but several members of my family are.

My father in particular is a Christian and he has known about my 40K interest for a long time (since I was about 10). He has never had a problem with the religious, demonic side of 40K (even when I played Chaos Marines as a teenager), mainly because we haven't really talked about it, but he once said that he only just tolerated me playing the game because of the violence portrayed in it.

He doesn't approve of the violent video games I play like borderlands or gears of war though.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Surely his disapproval of violence and the portrayal of such is a strictly personal opinion, and not motivated by his religious belief.
The god portrayed in the Bible (both new and old testament) habitually and consistently advocates the use of, and personally partake in, violent actions.

Have you got any quotes for God advocating violence in the new testament?

I'm curious now

Hetelic wrote:
Ok, I want to get involved in this thread.

Firstly, and as an aside, I'm pretty certain that the number of the beast is commonly (wrongly) acknowledged as 666, when it is in fact 616. Can't remember exactly where I heard that though, so it may be wrong.

This is true, the original was miscalculated. However, 666 now has more meaning, so I wonder which is correct?

What was even the point of the Devil having a number? Do you give him a call if you want some damnation?

PredaKhaine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Surely his disapproval of violence and the portrayal of such is a strictly personal opinion, and not motivated by his religious belief.
The god portrayed in the Bible (both new and old testament) habitually and consistently advocates the use of, and personally partake in, violent actions.

Have you got any quotes for God advocating violence in the new testament?

I'm curious now

Examples could include;

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Matthew 10:34
"Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:10, 12
"Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah." Mark 6:11
"Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell." Mark 9:43-49
"Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell." Luke 12:5
"Bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:22-27

Another could be the accept (and approval) of the hideous torture and "death" of Jesus.

More can be found here

Steelmage99 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Surely his disapproval of violence and the portrayal of such is a strictly personal opinion, and not motivated by his religious belief.
The god portrayed in the Bible (both new and old testament) habitually and consistently advocates the use of, and personally partake in, violent actions.

Have you got any quotes for God advocating violence in the new testament?

I'm curious now

Examples could include;

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Matthew 10:34
"Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:10, 12
"Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah." Mark 6:11
"Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell." Mark 9:43-49
"Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell." Luke 12:5
"Bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:22-27

Another could be the accept (and approval) of the hideous torture and "death" of Jesus.

More can be found here

Thanks - thats definitely given me some reading material

I'm lucky, what religious friends I have don't care about what a sci fi universe has in it. While I myself am an atheist, I do try to be tolerant of peoples worldviews.

Unfortunately I grew up in the bible belt of the midwest and was a huge fan of fantasy and Science fiction universes and games. This wasn't a good mix because many adults were condescending and gossiping about my hobbies( MtG, shadowrun, D&D, Vampire, and Battletech). It was hard on my dad having to hear from churchgoers that were mostly logical on most fronts that I was doing witchcraft and ruining other children's lives when I was merely enjoying a tabletop game that was social.

I think we've covered the original ground well, and a large percentage of the posts have started to be about religion generally, and not specifically how it relates to people's perception of 40k. Some of the posts have also been a bit rude toward a religion or two.

I'm going to lock this for off-topic, and to head off any further ill-feeling. Thanks, folks.