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The mainstay LGS in Richmond has had its entire WM/H stock marked down by 25%+ since January and still has a good amount of product. I asked the owner why he is moving away from WM/H and he said the games had died in these parts. He said he had spoken with the other LGSs in the area and heard the same from them. I don't pay close attention to PP but this came as a shock to me. AFAIK, of the other two LGSs in town, one stocks a fair amount of WM/H product (along with everything else including Mantic and even GW's LotR stuff) and the other, which only opened last year, has very little.

I was wondering if anyone else had heard/experienced similar rumors of declining interest in WM/H.

In my area it is begin to grow (damn memory forgetting that meme...), but you may be just asking about the states...

Nope, pretty much been the opposite around here, it's been growing quite rapidly. It could be a local meta thing around you though - sometimes regions wax and wane Independant of other areas.

As a whole though, PP is definitely growing.

Are you referring to Richmond, VA? If so, then the store in question would be One Eyed Jacques. Over the years they catered more to the MTG crowd and removed playspace for table top, so wargamers went elsewhere. That is why he can not sell models well anymore. FTW Gaming on Midlothian and Dragons Den in Short Pump sell all the battle boxes and stuff for WM/H. I would not agree that WM/H is in a decline. My FLGS, Dragons Den is doing a Journeymen league with a local Press Ganger and we have 24 people playing in it.

Yep, not on the decline in my experience. It was growing in Baton Rouge when I lived there, it grew in Colorado while I was there, there's more and more players coming in to it here in Alabama, and last time I visited New Orleans, it had a larger presence than GW games(both wallspace and sales).

 Tusken Sith Lord wrote:
Over the years they catered more to the MTG crowd and removed playspace for table top, so wargamers went elsewhere. That is why he can not sell models well anymore.

I think OEJ has been catering to board games lately as well. I do agree, however, that Joe doesn't seem bothered about miniatures.

 Tusken Sith Lord wrote:
My FLGS, Dragons Den is doing a Journeymen league with a local Press Ganger and we have 24 people playing in it.

I go to DD nearly every week but I haven't played anything there yet. I really like that store. But IIRC DD carries very little PP product.

My playgroup keeps growing at a steady rate. It's getting to the point where we're going to need a new solution for play space.

My FLGS has been beating attendance records with every new tournament hosted so I say that it is definitely growing around here as well.

I go to DD nearly every week but I haven't played anything there yet. I really like that store. But IIRC DD carries very little PP product.

Right now they focus on carrying the battle boxes and books because they are trying to grow a community. There is a lot of battle box and 15pt events going on. Dragons Den is extremely friendly to new guys and casual play. There are already plans to double the inventory after the league is done, probably in June. Keep in mind that they are also planning for MTG, 40k, Infinity and Legend of the 5 Rings events as well.

Slow, controlled growth is key my friend. Game Stores can not afford to take huge risks, especially one that just opened in November of 2012.

 Tusken Sith Lord wrote:
Game Stores can not afford to take huge risks

So PP is still considered a huge risk? In contrast to GW at least, right? This goes back to Joe's point. Even he carries a lot of 40k inventory but he's moving out of PP. Dragon's Den is thinking about getting into it. If there was a thriving WM/H community in RVA, carrying PP would not be a huge risk for Dragon's Den and they would have much more stuff in stock even if it wasn't like the whole wall they have devoted to 40k and WHFB.

It seems what you are saying is that WM/H has been struggling in RVA and Dragon's Den is trying to cultivate it back to healthier levels. I don't make it to FTW very often -- although I think they have the ideal space/inventory from a customer viewpoint -- but I was there about three weeks ago and I think they had some PP stuff but nothing huge, either. OEJ gave it a lot of space for years.

OEJ gave space because they had to when they were only real game store in town. That changed when a GW store opened at Stony Point and later FTW Gaming. OEJ's complete lack of customer service is what killed many non-MTG players from going there. Other stores did it better, hence why no one would buy his PP until it was marked down.

Investing in any new product is a risk for any game store. Why? Well, because they investing their capital into a new product which is always risk. That is why the store is focusing on battle boxes because it is good for getting new players into the game. DD does have a huge wall of 40k, but I can tell you it does not sell that much. MTG, L5R and board games keep the place running. The reason their GW stuff is so prominently displayed is because they have too according to their license from GW. Also, keep in mind that even if a game store wants to carry something, they are at the mercy of their distributor for getting the supplies, which BTW is a pain for a new store versus an established one. PP games are not that rare and yes, there is a sizable group that plays, they just are not organized so it's easy to miss them. FTW does have the play space, but they focus more on BloodBowl and MTG these days.

Either way, there is a RVA community, WM/H is a good game and go play games. I know I do.

To clarify, I'm not saying no one in RVA plays WM/H and I certainly agree that every product a local store carries is a risk. But there are different levels of risk. Something like 25%+ of DD's space is taken up by GW product. If that's a license requirement then we have to assume that's part of a risk DD is willing to take -- and that DD believes 40k/WHFB sales outweigh that risk. DD doesn't seem to have a similar belief in PP. Is that because OEJ or FTW is already covering that market? No, that doesn't seem to be the case, either. So it's not like there is no evidence of Joe's opinion that WM/H is struggling in RVA.

Maybe, like you're saying, there is interest and it just needs organization. For me, I really hope that is the case. I've never played PP's games myself but I would be really sad if WM/H dried up in Richmond. I guess I should be part of the solution: pick up a starter box and start playing at DD of a Wednesday night.

The issue with non-GW games is that people do buy them, but they fail to play them at the FLGS consistently...hence why people think the game is dead. Until DD hosted a Journeyman league, everyone thought WM/H was a dead game in RVA. Then after DD put the word out for a league....the scene exploded. The store sold out of battle boxes. So, IMO if the players make an effort to show that yes there is a community, then they'll be fine. Definitely pick a faction and go play. they are all cool and fun to play.

 Manchu wrote:
To clarify, I'm not saying no one in RVA plays WM/H and I certainly agree that every product a local store carries is a risk. But there are different levels of risk. Something like 25%+ of DD's space is taken up by GW product. If that's a license requirement then we have to assume that's part of a risk DD is willing to take -- and that DD believes 40k/WHFB sales outweigh that risk. DD doesn't seem to have a similar belief in PP. Is that because OEJ or FTW is already covering that market? No, that doesn't seem to be the case, either. So it's not like there is no evidence of Joe's opinion that WM/H is struggling in RVA.

Maybe, like you're saying, there is interest and it just needs organization. For me, I really hope that is the case. I've never played PP's games myself but I would be really sad if WM/H dried up in Richmond. I guess I should be part of the solution: pick up a starter box and start playing at DD of a Wednesday night.

It's a pretty darn good game, provided you have your expectations set correctly. Fun setting, and it has a really high skill ceiling. One of the more cohesively constructed rule sets around too, reminds me of MTG in a lot of good ways. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but if you enjoy games that can create complex board states it's worth a try. At least get a demo game in if you've never tried.

PP is really picking up steam in my area especially with all the changes GW is making to their policies it has seemed to push a lot of people away from the GW product (at least in my area).

I know for instance my entire gaming group has sold all of their GW stuff and we have made the move to playing PP games.

I know for instance my entire gaming group has sold all of their GW stuff and we have made the move to playing PP games.

For our group it is different. The majority of gamers play both. When we want big epic battles, we play 40k/FB. If they want a solid skirmish game, then its a tie between Infinity or WM/H. No one will fully give up on any one system as each game is designed differently.

TBH, I find WM/H a bit intimidating -- probably because of all the comparisons to MtG, which just strikes me as a bad scene, or rather, just not my scene. Another thing that holds me back is I keep hearing 'jacks are not as competitive as infantry. To me, the most striking thing about the line are the 'jacks. I dunno, I have tried to learn about WM/H, I've read through the rulebooks over the years, but I still feel under-informed.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH, I find WM/H a bit intimidating -- probably because of all the comparisons to MtG, which just strikes me as a bad scene, or rather, just not my scene. Another thing that holds me back is I keep hearing 'jacks are not as competitive as infantry. To me, the most striking thing about the line are the 'jacks. I dunno, I have tried to learn about WM/H, I've read through the rulebooks over the years, but I still feel under-informed.

Less reading more playing!

 Manchu wrote:
TBH, I find WM/H a bit intimidating -- probably because of all the comparisons to MtG, which just strikes me as a bad scene, or rather, just not my scene. Another thing that holds me back is I keep hearing 'jacks are not as competitive as infantry. To me, the most striking thing about the line are the 'jacks. I dunno, I have tried to learn about WM/H, I've read through the rulebooks over the years, but I still feel under-informed.

Well, the Comparsion to MTG is really on a rules level. That is to say interactions are well documented and even when an interaction is counter-intuitive it has a definitive "Correct" way to resolve. That said 85%+ of rules questions could be answered simply by carefully re-reading the card.

The community (in my limited experience), is fairly different and a bit less neck-beardy than MtG. I've never run into the stereotypical unshaven basement dweller, though this may be an artifact of playing with a mostly-private group where even potential additions are vetted before hand.

However the PP Official forums are genuinely nice place for the most part & the pod-casters strike me as balanced individuals. If they're indicative of the community at large, I'd say there probably isn't much to worry about. The game does have a competitive edge to it, which can probably be off-putting to those used to "Casual" play being a bit more isolated from attempts at strong list building and rules-cohesion, but usually it isn't degerante.

I've really only ever seen one player get really frustrated by rules enforcement and to be fair, he was getting trounced at the time and was running afoul of yet another protectorate control element.



As to 'Jacks aren't as competitive as infantry. This is true, mostly. Every faction has 'Jack caster or two that can run a 'Jack heavy army just fine, however they tend to be the exception more than the norm. Khador & Cryx in particular tend to more heavily favor a swarm of dudes over stompy robots. Cygnar & Retribution are a bit more balanced and have several casters that can favor a combined-arms approach. Where beyond support they'll comfortably spend maybe about 1/2 their standard points on 'Jacks.

Protectorate of Menoth is the exception to the rule. They've got powerful 'Jack support and can viably build lists where they spend 6pts (out of 35 or 50) on a cheap infantry unit to provide bodies and another 8pts or so on support models and then fill out the rest of their list with 'Jacks that do the heavy lifting. This isn't to say 'Jacks are their only option, just that Protectorate can effectively field a 'Jack-Central force across more of their casters, rather than relying on their 1 or 2 "Jack Casters" who may or may not be that great.


Hordes is a Different story. Warbeasts are more often central than not, and casters that want to skimp on them tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

It's also worth nothing that 'Jacks particularly heavies are expensive (anywhere from 6-13 points) with 8-9 being "Average" and games being either 35 or 50 points. Bringing even a pair of Heavies is actually a fairly large portion of your force.

I have heard that the staff of Privateer Press plays Magic: The Gathering.

Thanks for that post, Chongara! I have a long history of trying to start WM/H but never quite making it. With what TSl has said ITT about the local scene maybe I can finally get moving. Looks like Protectorate is the best option for me from what you said although I have some Retribution models already.

Malfred, didn't Matt Wilson used to do art for MtG cards?

Its constantly growing here and most places i see.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH, I find WM/H a bit intimidating -- probably because of all the comparisons to MtG, which just strikes me as a bad scene, or rather, just not my scene. Another thing that holds me back is I keep hearing 'jacks are not as competitive as infantry. To me, the most striking thing about the line are the 'jacks. I dunno, I have tried to learn about WM/H, I've read through the rulebooks over the years, but I still feel under-informed.

Jacks are as competitive as infantry, however the game tends to on average support a combined arms approach more overall. Think of 'Jacks as tanks; although they are cool, they need support. that being said, it is fully possible to run an "armoured company', with Menoth being especially good.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH, I find WM/H a bit intimidating -- probably because of all the comparisons to MtG, which just strikes me as a bad scene, or rather, just not my scene. Another thing that holds me back is I keep hearing 'jacks are not as competitive as infantry. To me, the most striking thing about the line are the 'jacks. I dunno, I have tried to learn about WM/H, I've read through the rulebooks over the years, but I still feel under-informed.

Jacks are as competitive as infantry, however the game tends to on average support a combined arms approach more overall. Think of 'Jacks as tanks; although they are cool, they need support. that being said, it is fully possible to run an "armoured company', with Menoth being especially good.

And you mention you already have some ret, there is at least one (albiet very niche) list which uses a lot of jacks in ret.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
TBH, I find WM/H a bit intimidating -- probably because of all the comparisons to MtG, which just strikes me as a bad scene, or rather, just not my scene. Another thing that holds me back is I keep hearing 'jacks are not as competitive as infantry. To me, the most striking thing about the line are the 'jacks. I dunno, I have tried to learn about WM/H, I've read through the rulebooks over the years, but I still feel under-informed.

Jacks are as competitive as infantry, however the game tends to on average support a combined arms approach more overall. Think of 'Jacks as tanks; although they are cool, they need support. that being said, it is fully possible to run an "armoured company', with Menoth being especially good.

I think this is true in Ret, Cygnar & to some extent Mercs. Khador & Cryx seem to treat their 'Jacks like particularly big solos more than anything else.

I actually like Ret Warjacks a lot and could see running a pair of heavies @ 35 with a few of their casters and doing decent. Though this may be because I love the Manticore & Pheonix both on a conceptual level so much.

 Manchu wrote:
Thanks for that post, Chongara! I have a long history of trying to start WM/H but never quite making it. With what TSl has said ITT about the local scene maybe I can finally get moving. Looks like Protectorate is the best option for me from what you said although I have some Retribution models already.

Malfred, didn't Matt Wilson used to do art for MtG cards?

Yup. You can find this stuff using an Advanced Search on Gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4622

Or pick a card and pick his name.

 malfred wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Thanks for that post, Chongara! I have a long history of trying to start WM/H but never quite making it. With what TSl has said ITT about the local scene maybe I can finally get moving. Looks like Protectorate is the best option for me from what you said although I have some Retribution models already.

Malfred, didn't Matt Wilson used to do art for MtG cards?

Yup. You can find this stuff using an Advanced Search on Gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4622

Or pick a card and pick his name.

That would make sense since WOTC started in Seattle and that is where PP is now.

 malfred wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Thanks for that post, Chongara! I have a long history of trying to start WM/H but never quite making it. With what TSl has said ITT about the local scene maybe I can finally get moving. Looks like Protectorate is the best option for me from what you said although I have some Retribution models already.

Malfred, didn't Matt Wilson used to do art for MtG cards?

Yup. You can find this stuff using an Advanced Search on Gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4622

Or pick a card and pick his name.

That Phyrexian Hulk looks familiar

The information in this thread has covered most of the issues at play. There is one factor that might leave a few communities waning.

The colossals release cycle has been rather dull and drained some excitement from the community. There were a total of 13 models in that book, none were a surprise, and at least three were out before the book was released. That was a very low number of new releases with nothing new to get excited about for a very long time compared to what we're used to. WM players are spoiled for new releases and I've seen some people lose enthusiasm because there was nothing fresh coming down the pipeline. Gargantuans was better and the next unnamed warmachine book seems to have a normal schedule, so we may begin to see some of those communities revive in the coming months.

 Dais wrote:
The information in this thread has covered most of the issues at play. There is one factor that might leave a few communities waning.

The colossals release cycle has been rather dull and drained some excitement from the community. There were a total of 13 models in that book, none were a surprise, and at least three were out before the book was released. That was a very low number of new releases with nothing new to get excited about for a very long time compared to what we're used to. WM players are spoiled for new releases and I've seen some people lose enthusiasm because there was nothing fresh coming down the pipeline. Gargantuans was better and the next unnamed warmachine book seems to have a normal schedule, so we may begin to see some of those communities revive in the coming months.

I don't know. In this area Colossals have at least gained more attention
just because they're so big on the tabletop.