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Massive sizes for a product that you can't add memory to.

Here are examples of PDF sizes for those same 5 products:

Daemons 138MB(Crazy high quality compared to the rest)
Dark Angels 47MB
Tau 20MB
Chaos Space Marines 36MB
Space Marines 159MB(again abnormally large)

The only thing that appears to vastly affect file size here is the resolution of the scans. Full 6th edition rulebook is only 260MB, and that is one that you can search and copy text from(the rest are just image scans).

Massively smaller on average. Across the 42 PDF's that I don't have it's 2.99GB including all of the IA books.

Those file sizes for the ibook versions are crazy high.

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that there's 360° pictures in a resolution designed for the Retina screens has nothing to do with the file size.

Quark wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure the fact that there's 360° pictures in a resolution designed for the Retina screens has nothing to do with the file size.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that GW is just throwing 500MB of random noise into their files for fun.

Quark wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure the fact that there's 360° pictures in a resolution designed for the Retina screens has nothing to do with the file size.

But is that content that is really needed? It's the same 360° pic from their website, and I doubt anyone really needs those pics when they are out of range of some manner of WiFi or computer with internet.

To me, every single pic that is on GW's site is free content. I will not pay for it's inclusion in a product. GW could sell me a codex with not a single picture of the models and I'd be completely fine with that.

And even more so, GW deliberately adding unnecessary content into files that can only be used on a product with incredibly limited storage space is just stupid. If GW did every 40k and WFB they'd be looking at well over 32GB of space taken up, which is more than most iPad users generally have.

I feel like at this point you're just finding reasons to dislike it. And that's fine, but there are plenty of us that very much prefer the format. It gets tiring being treated like a pariah because you do.

 cincydooley wrote:
I feel like at this point you're just finding reasons to dislike it. And that's fine, but there are plenty of us that very much prefer the format. It gets tiring being treated like a pariah because you do.

I'm not bashing any consumer for buying it. I'm saying that the way GW is doing it is limiting that potential customer base.

Ipads are cool. Could they be better? Absolutely, and if they had some basic things like expandable storage(which even my $70 nook has) then they'd open themselves to a wider market.

It's the same thing with the iBooks. If GW made them more accessible, then they'd have more customers to buy them.

As it stands, I don't need an iPad, and I can't use the GW iBooks without one, therefore GW gets no money from me.

I understand completely why Apple limits memory on Ipads: so they can sell you a new one for more money in 12 months. You think that 128GB of flash memory costs that much? It really doesn't. $800 for an iPad who's only difference from the $500 model is <$50 worth of flash storage. They charge $100 for 16GB of memory that costs $20 at wal mart on a thumb drive. A 32GB mini SD card is $24.

So you take a product with VERY limited storage, and your first instinct is to make bulky files for it that would fill the tablet after only a few books and the core rule book?


The product could be so much better, and GW could make far more money. That is the point here.

 Aerethan wrote:

As it stands, I don't need an iPad, and I can't use the GW iBooks without one, therefore GW gets no money from me.

Before GW made Digibooks... did you buy and pay for a phsyical book for every PDF you have in your collection?

And GW has three choices to expand their e-book market:

1. Develop a custom app for Android which can replicate the functionality... But there would need to be a risk analysis that the expanded market and increased customer purchases off-sets the extensive development costs so it is actually a profitable venture.

2. License a 3rd party framework which will handle the fragmented issues across platforms, but then pay a percentage to this company... there would need to be a risk analysis that the expanded market and increased customer purchases off-sets the licensing costs so it is actually a profitable venture.

3. Make everything into open-format PDFs which is easy to do. Attempt to 'sell' the PDFs and hope people pay for the PDFs and that it doesn't actually lead to a drop in digital and physical sales for a net loss.

If you can show a working business model, I am sure GW would accept it. Just because you claim you want to give GW money, it doesn't mean it is always profitable for GW to do what is required to accept that money. Often people have ideas and wants which just are not realistic... Android development to expand your market is not a simple 'no-brainer' decision and lots of companies have iOS only apps because of it. It has lots of risks and often can be a moneypit. If the goal is to take a small loss there to use it to promote other parts of the business, then maybe it can be accepted. I think providing physical books is probably a better solution for a non-software engineering company for right now until Android gets its act together.

(Nooks with their handicapped OS are a whole nother mess. You can make stuff which is android compatible which won't run on Nooks due to BS hardcoded restrictions. I can't see how anyone legitimately uses a nook without cracking the OS.)

 Aerethan wrote:
age scans).

Massively smaller on average. Across the 42 PDF's that I don't have it's 2.99GB including all of the IA books.

Those file sizes for the ibook versions are crazy high.

And presumably you have the physical copies of all 42 of those PDFs?

nkelsch wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

As it stands, I don't need an iPad, and I can't use the GW iBooks without one, therefore GW gets no money from me.

Before GW made Digibooks... did you buy and pay for a phsyical book for every PDF you have in your collection?

And GW has three choices to expand their e-book market:

1. Develop a custom app for Android which can replicate the functionality... But there would need to be a risk analysis that the expanded market and increased customer purchases off-sets the extensive development costs so it is actually a profitable venture.

2. License a 3rd party framework which will handle the fragmented issues across platforms, but then pay a percentage to this company... there would need to be a risk analysis that the expanded market and increased customer purchases off-sets the licensing costs so it is actually a profitable venture.

3. Make everything into open-format PDFs which is easy to do. Attempt to 'sell' the PDFs and hope people pay for the PDFs and that it doesn't actually lead to a drop in digital and physical sales for a net loss.

If you can show a working business model, I am sure GW would accept it. Just because you claim you want to give GW money, it doesn't mean it is always profitable for GW to do what is required to accept that money. Often people have ideas and wants which just are not realistic... Android development to expand your market is not a simple 'no-brainer' decision and lots of companies have iOS only apps because of it. It has lots of risks and often can be a moneypit. If the goal is to take a small loss there to use it to promote other parts of the business, then maybe it can be accepted. I think providing physical books is probably a better solution for a non-software engineering company for right now until Android gets its act together.

(Nooks with their handicapped OS are a whole nother mess. You can make stuff which is android compatible which won't run on Nooks due to BS hardcoded restrictions. I can't see how anyone legitimately uses a nook without cracking the OS.)

The nook reference was only there to point out that a $70 ereader has expandable storage, yet an $800 tablet doesn't.

And I understand the need for GW to have a solid plan for such things, and I understand the costs associated with it. So let me posit an instance where GW already had that crap figured out and still manages to botch sales.

Army specific magic cards. There is ZERO reason to limit these to small runs. It costs about $.40 to make a pack which they then sell for what, $6? And 99% of people who play that army will end up buying the cards, because $6 is not much to the consumer and the perceived value is high. I'd even buy them(and currently do) for armies I don't play, just because I collect them.

The overhead for those cards is minimal, and the profit margin is huge.


Just because GW knows a product is profitable and the legwork is already done doesn't mean they know what they are doing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
age scans).

Massively smaller on average. Across the 42 PDF's that I don't have it's 2.99GB including all of the IA books.

Those file sizes for the ibook versions are crazy high.

And presumably you have the physical copies of all 42 of those PDFs?

I did say that I DON'T have them... >.>

nkelsch wrote:
1. Develop a custom app for Android which can replicate the functionality... But there would need to be a risk analysis that the expanded market and increased customer purchases off-sets the extensive development costs so it is actually a profitable venture.

2. License a 3rd party framework which will handle the fragmented issues across platforms, but then pay a percentage to this company... there would need to be a risk analysis that the expanded market and increased customer purchases off-sets the licensing costs so it is actually a profitable venture.

What functionality does a codex need?

Sure, 360 degree rotating pictures and pop-up rules notes are nice, but we've survived without them in hardcopy codexes since forever, and I think we could all quite successfully use a digital codex that similarly lacked these things.

There is absolutely zero need for some piece of complex software or a custom app. A PDF or an ePub can be read with at most a simple, readily available application, on any Android, Apple or Microsoft device. Tablets, home computers, laptops, phones. Hell, I could probably access them on my TV if I got really carried away.

3. Make everything into open-format PDFs which is easy to do. Attempt to 'sell' the PDFs and hope people pay for the PDFs and that it doesn't actually lead to a drop in digital and physical sales for a net loss.

As I said before, those who would be happy to pay for them will do so. Those who won't would have been using pirate copies anyway. So the net result of releasing the books in a more accessible format is that they increase their potential market from those people with an iPad who are happy to pay for a digital release, to those people with any electronic device made in the last 20 years who are happy to pay for a digital release.

The mathematics there don't seem to be too complicated.

I would definitely pay for a high quality PDF that had searchable text.

Right now, I am aware that people that are not me get low quality PDFs that often do not have searchable text. This annoys these other people that are not me. Not that that stops those people from downloading those low quality PDFs anyways. I mean you takes what you (meaning those other people) can get.

Of course, those other people who are not me might not buy PDFs if they were as expensive as the paper codex either.

we all know why GW is doing iBooks Codex and Army Book releases...
they have all the bells and whistles, so appear as a high-end product...
GW is trying to sell Ferraris, not Yugos...
sure, the Yugo will get you to work and back, but it doesn't look, sound, or feel like a Ferrari...
i'm not saying it's right, just that we all know where GW's head is at...

nobody needs the high-end options, but some people like them...
thankfully, everyone still has the option of buying a printed Codex...
imagine GW releasing only digital iBooks material, and no more print...
if that happened, all the complaints would be 100% legit...
right now, to me, it's much ado about nothing...

cheers
jah

 insaniak wrote:
What functionality does a codex need?

Sure, 360 degree rotating pictures and pop-up rules notes are nice, but we've survived without them in hardcopy codexes since forever, and I think we could all quite successfully use a digital codex that similarly lacked these things.

There is absolutely zero need for some piece of complex software or a custom app. .

For you.

For those of us that can only get one or two games in a month, that don't have all the rules hard-line memorized, the pop ups are an absolute godsend. I love having access to them.

I also quite like having the 3D images at hand. I typically have my iPad sitting next to me while I paint, and having the 3D models for reference is also fantastic.

I would not buy a PDF version that didn't have the first feature. For me, the 360 renders is simply a value add.

So again, because those features are superfulous to you doesn't mean they arent an absolute boon to others.

 cincydooley wrote:
For you.

For those of us that can only get one or two games in a month, that don't have all the rules hard-line memorized, the pop ups are an absolute godsend. I love having access to them.

Both ePubs and PDFs can have internal links to a rules glossary, which would accomplish exactly the same thing. And ePubs could probably handle a similar pop-up system, with rules terms just being added to the device's (or an internal) dictionary.

So again, because those features are superfulous to you doesn't mean they arent an absolute boon to others.

I didn't say they weren't useful features. Just unnecessary ones. A less clunky filetype could accomplish almost exactly the same functionality for the rules, and the 360 degree pictures can just as easily be viewed through the GW website.

Insaniak, I'm just curious if you've used one of the digital codeces yet. I don't know that I've ever seen an eBook or PDF that has the functionality these do. I'd have no interest in a glossary because I'd still have to flip back and forth.

 cincydooley wrote:
Insaniak, I'm just curious if you've used one of the digital codeces yet. I don't know that I've ever seen an eBook or PDF that has the functionality these do.

I'm getting the impression he hasn't or at least hasn't had extensive time to play with all the features. I've got the SM and Necron codeces on the iPad and they're far closer to actual apps than eBooks. They have functionality that a PDF can't match. Now if that functionality is something a PDF lover isn't interested in, fine but don't try to play it off as though PDFs are the same as what GW is selling on iTunes.

 insaniak wrote:

What functionality does a codex need?

Sure, 360 degree rotating pictures and pop-up rules notes are nice, but we've survived without them in hardcopy codexes since forever, and I think we could all quite successfully use a digital codex that similarly lacked these things.

There is absolutely zero need for some piece of complex software or a custom app. A PDF or an ePub can be read with at most a simple, readily available application, on any Android, Apple or Microsoft device. Tablets, home computers, laptops, phones. Hell, I could probably access them on my TV if I got really carried away.

Eh... 10 years ago I swore GPSs were a fad. Then when you get a car with one, not only are they useful, but you become simply a more informed driver. Being able to see an overhead map of the city blocks and upcoming turns and compass directions simply make you a better driver, less need for crossing 4 lanes or being lost, knowing the posted speedlimit at all times. I find it hard to drive without my built-in GPS now because it provides me so much more useful information and makes me a safer driver.

I find a majority of the features of the iCodexes super useful. And the ones which are not useful are fun and worth the added effort to me. Now that I have it, I would be upset if they 'dumbed down' the format and took these features away... Which is the issue. If they release a poorer version on other formats, people will complain why they didn't spend a ton developing an app version equal to the ipad version.

And people don't pay for PDFs. The rampant piracy isn't going to go away because people who Pirate will find a reason why the released product isn't a 'value' to them, but they still must have it. They are incapable of 'going without'.

 cincydooley wrote:
Insaniak, I'm just curious if you've used one of the digital codeces yet. I don't know that I've ever seen an eBook or PDF that has the functionality these do. I'd have no interest in a glossary because I'd still have to flip back and forth.

I've seen them, but not used them. I don't have an iPad, and have no interest in getting one. So until GW release digital codexes in a format that will work on my computer, Kobo or phone, they won't be selling them to me.



Oh, and as it turns out, PDFs also have the functionality built in to create pop-up notes. So either ePub or PDF could accomplish the same thing as the iBook for your rules requirements, without the need for a separate Glossary page that you have to turn to (and when did that become a hardship, really?)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
And people don't pay for PDFs. The rampant piracy isn't going to go away because people who Pirate will find a reason why the released product isn't a 'value' to them, but they still must have it. They are incapable of 'going without'.

Many of the same people who bought the iBook version would have bought a PDF or ePub version. While I accept that some people like all the bells and whistles, others don't care about them at all, and just wanted a legal digital version.

If you can find one of those PDFs I'd love to see it. I didn't know they could do that and could find some real applicability for my job.

If it was in PDF or ebook I simply think they'd lose a lot of sales. I have nothing to back that up, but those PDFs would be online within a week.

 cincydooley wrote:
If you can find one of those PDFs I'd love to see it. I didn't know they could do that and could find some real applicability for my job.

If it was in PDF or ebook I simply think they'd lose a lot of sales. I have nothing to back that up, but those PDFs would be online within a week.

PDF's are already up within a week. Iirc the 6th edition rulebook which is rather well indexed was up 2 weeks after.


People are able to do them decently in their free time, just think of what GW could do with them if they actually put some effort into it.



And since so many people ask me if I do/would buy physical copies of all the PDF's I have, short answer is sometimes. The 40k ones I have mostly because they were part of a larger collection. For the WFB ones, I don't have copies of some of the books, but if legit PDF's were sold, I'd honestly buy them.

A few examples: I had the PDF for Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum, and still wanted actual books of them, so I bought them. To the same degree, I ordered Blood in the Badlands at my local GW store, and a week later was told it was OOP and out of stock and that I wouldn't be getting the book. I then scoured for a PDF and found one. It's an absolute crap copy, but well enough to get the rules. And that book I'd buy in a heartbeat if they brought it back.

So while there will always be those who want it free, I am not one of them. Another reason I like having PDF's is so that I can tab between them and Army Builder when designing lists to read up on the actual rules instead of the AB cliff notes. Having a book across the house that I have to go get, prop up, light, not spill on etc makes that a bit hard. I'm willing to pay for convenience, it's the American way.

Is ever single thread about an electronic product released by GW going to devolve into the exact same OT discussion about the merits of PDFs?

NEWS FLASH: GW isn't going to be releasing their stuff in PDF format. Get over it already.

I have the space marine one and I would prefer pdfs, the codex is over 200 pages, and there is a huge amount of flicking and tapping I would prefer the summary page like the paper books which is much faster.

 Breotan wrote:
Is ever single thread about an electronic product released by GW going to devolve into the exact same OT discussion about the merits of PDFs?

Until GW start releasing digital media in a format everyone can actually use, probably.

Although I should point out that I haven't been talking exclusively about PDFs. I would rather see the ePub format, personally.

Seems like a really large file just for a codex. Especially for small spaced devices. That's unfortunate.

I meant a PDF with the pop ups.

There are plenty of people that have ethical problems with having PDFs without owning a physical copy. You are clearly not one of these people.

You mention the ability to flip to rules for army builder and news flash: the GW digital codexes do this.

Small spaced devices? Mine has 64 GB if storage. I've never had any problems.

 cincydooley wrote:
I meant a PDF with the pop ups.

There are plenty of people that have ethical problems with having PDFs without owning a physical copy. You are clearly not one of these people.

You mention the ability to flip to rules for army builder and news flash: the GW digital codexes do this.

Small spaced devices? Mine has 64 GB if storage. I've never had any problems.

You are right, the iBook does do that, if you own an iPad. I have a computer with 2 monitors, so I don't need a tablet on my computer desk.

And 64GB is small if the average codex is 1GB.

I'm not bashing the product's functionality, but it's lack of expandability and it's intentionally short lifespan are issues. It's the same with iPhones(I have one of those). They are designed to last long enough for you to buy the next one, quite different from computers which can easily last a decade if you maintain it well enough and barring the odd hardware malfunction. That longevity is why XP lasted so long as the top OS in the world, no companies needed to upgrade to Win7 because their desktops from 2002 still ran just fine(MS pulling support for XP is what finally killed it's hold on the market).

Apple does a lot of things specifically to prevent this. One way they do that is by not allowing computers older than X to update to newer versions of OSX. I have a Mac Mini from late 2006. It runs fine(a bit slow by todays standards) but it can't support newer software because that software requires OSX 1.5 or higher, and that Mini won't update past 1.4.3. You know what that new software was that I wanted to install for my kids? Angry Birds. For some reason Rovio and Apple felt that hand me down computers for kids to play on is stupid and somehow that stupid flash game won't play on it. It's designed specifically to get me to upgrade to a newer Mac, which isn't going to happen since my use for it is for my kids to watch youtube and play games.

For the same money as a new Mac Mini, I can get an entire bundled desktop with peripherals, and as long as the hardware works I can upgrade it for nearly a decade provided the system req's don't skyrocket.

And as I pointed out earlier, flash memory is dirt cheap, there is no reason why an iPad with 128GB should run $800 when the memory size is the ONLY difference between it and the baseline model.

At any rate, I don't only want legit PDF's for mobile devices, I like having them on my PC as well. My tablet can easily be stolen out in public, whereas my PC is locked behind a rather heavy door with a very grumpy 16 year old cat guarding it as a heat source.

 Aerethan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I meant a PDF with the pop ups.

There are plenty of people that have ethical problems with having PDFs without owning a physical copy. You are clearly not one of these people.

You mention the ability to flip to rules for army builder and news flash: the GW digital codexes do this.

Small spaced devices? Mine has 64 GB if storage. I've never had any problems.

You are right, the iBook does do that, if you own an iPad. I have a computer with 2 monitors, so I don't need a tablet on my computer desk.

And 64GB is small if the average codex is 1GB.

I'm not bashing the product's functionality, but it's lack of expandability and it's intentionally short lifespan are issues. It's the same with iPhones(I have one of those). They are designed to last long enough for you to buy the next one, quite different from computers which can easily last a decade if you maintain it well enough and barring the odd hardware malfunction. That longevity is why XP lasted so long as the top OS in the world, no companies needed to upgrade to Win7 because their desktops from 2002 still ran just fine(MS pulling support for XP is what finally killed it's hold on the market).

Apple does a lot of things specifically to prevent this. One way they do that is by not allowing computers older than X to update to newer versions of OSX. I have a Mac Mini from late 2006. It runs fine(a bit slow by todays standards) but it can't support newer software because that software requires OSX 1.5 or higher, and that Mini won't update past 1.4.3. You know what that new software was that I wanted to install for my kids? Angry Birds. For some reason Rovio and Apple felt that hand me down computers for kids to play on is stupid and somehow that stupid flash game won't play on it. It's designed specifically to get me to upgrade to a newer Mac, which isn't going to happen since my use for it is for my kids to watch youtube and play games.

For the same money as a new Mac Mini, I can get an entire bundled desktop with peripherals, and as long as the hardware works I can upgrade it for nearly a decade provided the system req's don't skyrocket.

And as I pointed out earlier, flash memory is dirt cheap, there is no reason why an iPad with 128GB should run $800 when the memory size is the ONLY difference between it and the baseline model.

At any rate, I don't only want legit PDF's for mobile devices, I like having them on my PC as well. My tablet can easily be stolen out in public, whereas my PC is locked behind a rather heavy door with a very grumpy 16 year old cat guarding it as a heat source.

Dude, we get it. You don't like the digital products. You can stop beating the dead horse.

 undertow wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I meant a PDF with the pop ups.

There are plenty of people that have ethical problems with having PDFs without owning a physical copy. You are clearly not one of these people.

You mention the ability to flip to rules for army builder and news flash: the GW digital codexes do this.

Small spaced devices? Mine has 64 GB if storage. I've never had any problems.

You are right, the iBook does do that, if you own an iPad. I have a computer with 2 monitors, so I don't need a tablet on my computer desk.

And 64GB is small if the average codex is 1GB.

I'm not bashing the product's functionality, but it's lack of expandability and it's intentionally short lifespan are issues. It's the same with iPhones(I have one of those). They are designed to last long enough for you to buy the next one, quite different from computers which can easily last a decade if you maintain it well enough and barring the odd hardware malfunction. That longevity is why XP lasted so long as the top OS in the world, no companies needed to upgrade to Win7 because their desktops from 2002 still ran just fine(MS pulling support for XP is what finally killed it's hold on the market).

Apple does a lot of things specifically to prevent this. One way they do that is by not allowing computers older than X to update to newer versions of OSX. I have a Mac Mini from late 2006. It runs fine(a bit slow by todays standards) but it can't support newer software because that software requires OSX 1.5 or higher, and that Mini won't update past 1.4.3. You know what that new software was that I wanted to install for my kids? Angry Birds. For some reason Rovio and Apple felt that hand me down computers for kids to play on is stupid and somehow that stupid flash game won't play on it. It's designed specifically to get me to upgrade to a newer Mac, which isn't going to happen since my use for it is for my kids to watch youtube and play games.

For the same money as a new Mac Mini, I can get an entire bundled desktop with peripherals, and as long as the hardware works I can upgrade it for nearly a decade provided the system req's don't skyrocket.

And as I pointed out earlier, flash memory is dirt cheap, there is no reason why an iPad with 128GB should run $800 when the memory size is the ONLY difference between it and the baseline model.

At any rate, I don't only want legit PDF's for mobile devices, I like having them on my PC as well. My tablet can easily be stolen out in public, whereas my PC is locked behind a rather heavy door with a very grumpy 16 year old cat guarding it as a heat source.

Dude, we get it. You don't like the digital products. You can stop beating the dead horse.

I didn't say that I don't like them(or at least the idea of them). I said the execution could be much better, as could the price.

 Aerethan wrote:

 undertow wrote:

Dude, we get it. You don't like the digital products. You can stop beating the dead horse.

I didn't say that I don't like them(or at least the idea of them). I said the execution could be much better, as could the price.

I agree that the execution could be better, but some of that is a failing of their chosen platform. I buy technical books pretty frequently, and I don't buy them through iTunes because I can't read them on anything that doesn't run iOS. I think the price is too high as well.

However, I don't think these objections are enough to outweigh the usefulness that the digital codex brings. I already owned a couple of iPads, so that was an expense I had already incurred.

 undertow wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

 undertow wrote:

Dude, we get it. You don't like the digital products. You can stop beating the dead horse.

I didn't say that I don't like them(or at least the idea of them). I said the execution could be much better, as could the price.

I agree that the execution could be better, but some of that is a failing of their chosen platform. I buy technical books pretty frequently, and I don't buy them through iTunes because I can't read them on anything that doesn't run iOS. I think the price is too high as well.

However, I don't think these objections are enough to outweigh the usefulness that the digital codex brings. I already owned a couple of iPads, so that was an expense I had already incurred.

Which is completely reasonable. The argument I make is that the market for these products is vastly limited to those who already own iPads, and with non Apple tablets growing in popularity, the rest of the market is growing to a point where it would be irresponsible financially for GW to ignore.