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Title says it all, but is it best to go for Mechanised in Crusaders, Deep Strike on foot or a mix?

I'm currently running with this:

Belial
Deathwing Command Squad
Champion, TH/SS, CF, CML.

Deathwing Squad
2X TH/SS, CF, CML.

Deathwing Squad
2X TH/SS, CF, CML.

Crusader (Non DW).
SB/MM.

Crusader (Non DW).
SB/MM.

Comes in bang on 1500.

The plan is to race up with the land raiders T1 and smoke.
T2 Deep Strike in the Command Squad and Belial. Assault with Raider squads.

I'm not sure if the army will withstand Tau firepower, but I think the Raiders should help a lot.

The more you can stay in combat, the better. Try to set up to kill his units on his turn and not yours, although eqsier said than done! Watch out for interceptor models and place Belial and his buddies out of line of sight of them, no point losing them to overexcited Riptides!

Depending on the way the list is set up Tau can actually struggle to deal with AV14 now. Broadsides won't get the job done (and most people are now running them with Missiles anyway, which can't even glance) and 1-2 Hammerhead shots per turn is not going to get the job done (or at least not reliably before turn 4, which is long enough for the Raider to do its job). The best way to do it is Fusion, but people aren't running heaps of that either. The other is suicide squads of Fire Warriors with Haywires, but you should be able to see that one coming.

On the flip side a good Tau army will absolutely demolish all your infantry, massed S5 shooting (including the 'entire army shoots you again' overwatch) will drop Terminators and Plasma does so even faster. You also need to be very careful Deep Striking if he has a Riptide, usually they have Intercept and a AP2 pie plate to the face can really hurt.

Other than that try and hit the corners of his gunline to reduce the amount of overwatch you take. You can also use the Land Raiders to block LOS to some units, which can further reduce it. Otherwise don't be afraid to just sit in your Land Raiders in the midfield for a turn or two, if he doesn't have the tools to deal with them (or you can shoot his Fusion suits/Hammerhead down early) then you can chip away at him and ensure you can get off valuable charges (rather than hitting his blocking units etc). Also remember you need some scoring units alive at the end, so you can't be too aggressive with the Terminators.

If you're using LRC, why no Standard of Devastation on your command squad? It addresses DW's biggest weakness, which is horde.

The CML are a waste on non-footslogging DW termies.

You need a PFG in that army somewhere to make the LR unkillable.

I would rush forward first turn with both vehicles, then deep strike the third squad in turn 2 for a triple whammy.

Pray to god. I think termies match-up pretty poorly because Tau can bring really nasty anti-infantry firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The raiders will help, but good luck winning objective missions. The list is too "all-in"

Try out shooting them.

I honestly think two LRCs with Dakka Banner, PFG and an oboard Termy Squad is the hard counter to Tau. I may be wrong, but it's just a brutal combo.

It's an expensive combination. Ignoring HQ and Troop choices that's setting you back just over 1k.

The problem with this list is that when (not if) those Landraiders get popped by Railguns or deep striking fusion gun suits your termies will die to mass small arms fire. Yes, you have a 2+ save but how many 1's do you think you'll role when making 20 armor saves? You're better off dropping both Land Raiders and taking 2 more Deathwing Squads and a Librarian in Terminator armour, Or better yet, take 3 10 man squads that can be kept together in Kill Point missions or split in objective based ones. You want to make your list have the ability to take on all armies, not just your friend's Tau. Imagine if you lined up against Necrons?

Tau now actually have a lot less anti-vehicle ranged firepower. There are options, but you're not going to be losing a landraider every turn to broadsides.

The thing you'll really need to watch out for is overwatch... with greater access to markerlights and supporting fire, you should expect to face at least 1 unit with full BS overwatch (or even BS5) - from a unit of firewarriors or crisis suits, that could kill 3 terminators.

Trasvi wrote:
Tau now actually have a lot less anti-vehicle ranged firepower. There are options, but you're not going to be losing a landraider every turn to broadsides.

The thing you'll really need to watch out for is overwatch... with greater access to markerlights and supporting fire, you should expect to face at least 1 unit with full BS overwatch (or even BS5) - from a unit of firewarriors or crisis suits, that could kill 3 terminators.

I thought that at most, Tau had the ability to fire Overwatch at BS2, but no more.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
The problem with this list is that when (not if) those Landraiders get popped by Railguns or deep striking fusion gun suits your termies will die to mass small arms fire. Yes, you have a 2+ save but how many 1's do you think you'll role when making 20 armor saves? You're better off dropping both Land Raiders and taking 2 more Deathwing Squads and a Librarian in Terminator armour, Or better yet, take 3 10 man squads that can be kept together in Kill Point missions or split in objective based ones. You want to make your list have the ability to take on all armies, not just your friend's Tau. Imagine if you lined up against Necrons?

Have you ever played against da dakka raiders? The one rail gun most tac tau lists will be bringing is not going to do the job. Fusion will, but that's a turn 2 or 3 option (and with that 4++, not a gurantee). But by then it's too late, your flank is crumbling

It's funny you mention mass small arms, because that's what dark angels are bringing to the table. How long are your troops going to handle two crusaders firing under the banner? Not long enough for the fusion guns to kill the raiders, I think. At that point, the terminators are just there to clean up

I disagree it's not a good tac build, it absolutely is. Necrons are obviously the hard counter, but it brutalizes a lot of otherwise scary lists

(I apologize for grammar errors, I'm on my phone)

anonymou5 wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
The problem with this list is that when (not if) those Landraiders get popped by Railguns or deep striking fusion gun suits your termies will die to mass small arms fire. Yes, you have a 2+ save but how many 1's do you think you'll role when making 20 armor saves? You're better off dropping both Land Raiders and taking 2 more Deathwing Squads and a Librarian in Terminator armour, Or better yet, take 3 10 man squads that can be kept together in Kill Point missions or split in objective based ones. You want to make your list have the ability to take on all armies, not just your friend's Tau. Imagine if you lined up against Necrons?

Have you ever played against da dakka raiders? The one rail gun most tac tau lists will be bringing is not going to do the job. Fusion will, but that's a turn 2 or 3 option (and with that 4++, not a gurantee). But by then it's too late, your flank is crumbling

It's funny you mention mass small arms, because that's what dark angels are bringing to the table. How long are your troops going to handle two crusaders firing under the banner? Not long enough for the fusion guns to kill the raiders, I think. At that point, the terminators are just there to clean up

I disagree it's not a good tac build, it absolutely is. Necrons are obviously the hard counter, but it brutalizes a lot of otherwise scary lists

(I apologize for grammar errors, I'm on my phone)

I disagree pretty heavily with this. It isn't a TAC list. Capturing objectives will be very difficult and two LRCs even with banner aren't going to do enough damage to Tau armies (the likely will be packing a lot more infantry than before). Outflanking Kroot help a ton vs this list because the LRs will want to stay close and it'll force you to either split forces or give up your backfield. Any list with good mobility and lots of troops is going to give this a hard time. You still have to get out of the LR to capture and if you go first that means the opponent gets a round of shooting at your freshly disembarked troops. Also, keep in mind, the assault range out of a LR isn't that great, 6" move and depending on DT 2d6 disembark and 3d6 drop the highest for charging. If the opponent has a few riptides he will have the Melta to threaten the LRs, so you cannot just run around willy nilly.

Is it a tough list? Absolutely. But it isn't balanced, which is what makes a TAC list. Good players can outplay this sort of extreme build. And Necrons being a hard-counter is a pretty big deal, considering they are the most popular army around. I'd also worry about Tyranids since your Raiders cannot really hurt the MCs or hope to easily dakka down all the gants they will spawn. Daemon FMCs are also an issue because they can do a number on the LRCs when they charge.

Ill grant you necrons being the hard counter is a huge downside, haha. I'm not sure what I was thinking with that...

Keep in mind, I'm not a dark angels player, I'm just arguing that its their best counter for a tac Tau list. Which I stand by. It's going to roll a flank, and the codex has plenty of options for maneuverability and cheap scoring to fill out the rest of the list. (The guy at my shop who runs dakka raiders is mostly ravenwing otherwise, and it's at least a really tough fight for my SW/IG cheese).

I think the dakka raiders in a true TAC environment probably wants ig allies, but with neither codex available I can't give any specific ideas (although I will say you can plug a lot of holes with 600 points of guard).

That said, I'm starting to think a true tac list may not be about balance anymore, but maximizing your advantages and hoping you don't draw your hard counters (which if true is a shame, but is a discussion for a different day)

On this particular thread subject, I think dakka raiders with pfg and onboard termies is an extemely rough time for tau)

I think TAC lists are still around, every army has weaknesses, you just have to try mitigate it, at least that is what I think.

Dakka raiders are tough, but I find them to be a little too imbalanced to play competitively.

You could take a Vanilla Ally with Lysander to deal with riptides/vehicles in general, you could throw in a sniper rifle scout squad to deal with HQs etc.

3 LRC 750
2 Tactical Squads w Flamer 290
1 Librarian w PFG 95
1 CMD squad w Devastation... 180

This is 72 bolter shots every turn....

Then you get out and you pile in with 82 more bolter shots... 164 if he does let you set there...
If he doesn't take 2 hammerheads, you are going to slaughter anything he sends at you...

Only 1315 points spent so you could burn 120 on making them Death Wing vehicles with Multi-Meltas or fit in a second librarian and a techmarine... All good options.
Sadly only power armor but power armor with 2/4 shots for every guy.

How is that a Deathwing list?

Thanks for the advice.

He conceded on turn four.

Even with two Rail heads the Tau had great difficulty with the Raiders and I was in combat on t2. Overwatch didn't hurt.

The CML with split fire destroyed his Crisis Teams before they could even get a shot off against my Terminators.

I lost two Terminators and two hullpoints all game. Not even the Broadsides with Interceptor did much.

I've been playtesting Tau since release and to go against them really confirmed the weaknesses I thought they had.

What list did you eventually bring?

The one at the top of the thread.

There are some glaring holes in this list which the Tau are absolutely going to exploit.

Suicide bombing Belial to a shooty army is just handing them a victory point. The way to beat Tau, as I understand it, is close combat, but the DWA'd Termies aren't going to be able to assault until their second turn on the board, which gives the Tau time to move away and shoot. Belial won't let his unit scatter, but you're going to have to be careful dropping down to give yourself as little space as possible between him and the unit he's going to assault or they'll be kiting you for the rest of the game.

Also, can't Tau overwatch with every unit within x inches if you assault them? You're dropping right into their backline, which means the turn you finally get to fist them to death will be riddled with overwatch from MOST of the army. (I could be wrong on this).

And Interceptor... I don't know how many Tau units have it, but if it's more than a quarter, expect to get blasted to bits before you can take advantage of the first-turn Twin Link.

Adding Ravenwing could help you keep Belial alive, for the precision Deep Strikes, but you're still going to have to hug cover as hard as you can.

Ultimately, the problem with this list is the problem with DWA -- you can't assault out of it, in spite of the name. The way I see it, if you're dropping in 10 Terminators, 5 of them are there as meat shields for the rest.

if you ever come back id like to see the tau list you faced.

Was he a good player? did he make a even moderately competitive list?

This would be a good thing to compare your list to. I dont see how crisis suits died without doing any damage to your termies, thats weird...

I play tau and dark angels and I like your list it is well built, but well built tau lists can kill termies good. The tau book is so new i am suspecting he took suboptimal choices, or played suboptimal not know what to do with his own forces or even how to counter yours.

Last weekend I played a 1000pt game against Tau using a belial list in a killpoint game.
He had Farsight, half a dozen crisis suits with just 1 plasma each, 2 max squads of firewarriors and an ethereal. There was also a pathfinder squad sitting pretty.
My list was Belial, 10 Terminations (2TH/SS, 2CF, 2AC, basically 2 5 mans I chucked together), 3 bikers with melta, dakkadread and a 5man marine group with a ML. That's basically 690/1000 points in 11 men.

I don't think he knew what I'd be playing, I've been switching between Guard, DA and a mix of the two for a while now. Anyway he essentially brought the hard counter to that list. I was adamant that the game would be over by turn 2. Spoiled the 'report' of this game.



At higher points the whole "drop 10 guys and hope they survive" lark wouldn't have worked at all. There'd be more supporting fire and a hell of a lot of more plasma going around. I'd hate to think what missilesides or a riptide would do to them. Charging units with Bikers to eat overwatch and then charging the same unit with terminators could keep them alive longer, however I think RAW the other units in 6" can still fire supporting fire even if the charged unit is in combat., but I'm not completely sure.

Getting into combat is where you want to be, but getting there whilst surviving is going to be more difficult. If you do bring a Crusader and 7 Termi's inside it they are still eating overwatch. If you combine that with Belial you have to really hope belial's bodyguard doesn't just eat everything on their shooting turn. 1000 points nearly did them in, 1500 would just wreck them. At 1500 you can afford the Crusader and 18 termi's, but 11 of them will die when they deepstrike and the 7 in the crusader will die when you charge.

I'm going to assume your opponent had no Riptides & little to no plasma or fusions guns.

What were the mission objectives?

What was his list like?

I think you got very lucky.

Puscifer wrote:

Belial
Deathwing Command Squad
Champion, TH/SS, CF, CML.

if you are going to be deep striking Belial, why not take a heavy flamer instead of a CML. DS with your heavy flamer nicely lined up to roast as many 4+ save Tau as possible. The heavy flamer is str5, twin linked the turn it arrives, so can reroll to wound. Result, anything under the template with a 4+ save or worse dies. Much better than 2 missile shots.

 RedAngel wrote:
I'm going to assume your opponent had no Riptides & little to no plasma or fusions guns.

What were the mission objectives?

What was his list like?

I think you got very lucky.

Twas just 1000 points and killpoints mission type, I was very lucky. Cannot remember his list exactly but I think it was:


That might be it, he might have had other upgrades elsewhere or something. General gist anyway. Still a very hard counter to my list with farsight starting on the board.
but yeah, I drop Belial, I shoot some Crisis suits down and thankfully the storm shields ate most all of the plasma shots. He made some mistakes (not overwatching with ML first, feeding belial his Farsight group and not killing the stormshields with the firewarriors first).

I've found with Belial you have to be able to catch out unwary opponents or force them to make mistakes, ala "oh noes, there's lots of terminators in my deployment zone, gotta shoot at them with plasma's now!" but it won't work a second time.

I take it back.

Not getting eaten up by all that plasma is pretty tough. Not bad.

Dakka dread work over his FWs?

It pumped out 3 wounds each time it shot, but I was shooting at crisis suits so those wounds weren't killing wounds or were saved. Thinking back I should have shot at the fire-warriors instead, would have possibly kept a termi or 2 alive. Still in the mindset of "Shoot something until it's dead".
The ML launcher managed to kill 2 crisis suits when it shot though. Instadeath and his failed invulns were good for me.