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Asmodai Asmodean wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
Jy2, try lesser rewards on the DP's, as they are Tzeentch you can chose the staff of change as a default choice, it is plus 2 str meaning you are now str 8 always. Your DP is pretty much how I run mine.

As for the horrors, today (in 1k point mini tourny) I was running 3 lvl 3 heralds one with locus of conjuration, two with exalted rewards, one was grimoure other was portalglpyh (except on kill points) with 20 horrors. 2 powers each for the heralds on divination means you should get at least 1 prescience and perfect timing/misfortune/forewarning. Add to the fact if all 4 psyhic test goes off and 4 DTW failed, you can have up 15d6 of prescienced shots, and minus 1d6 basically for each other power cast so a prescinced perfect timing with forewarning squad would be 13d6 of shots, and all the herald shooting is presicion on 6's. Also useful against flyers. I managed to over kill quite a few units with that squad today.

I still think putting 550 points in a single blob squad which can shoot one target at 24" at max str 6 and has no cc to speak of is a terrible idea.

Used this yesterday, 550 points in 1k point list, guess what? did not lose the unit once, nor any of the heralds. They did overkill every unit they shot at even with DTW and failed psyhic tests. As Jy2 says, it is a force multipler, its 23 guys yes, but its also prescience forewarning and grimoure on my DP, its also free troops with the portalglpyh, it can give itself 2plus invul re rolling 1's. IT can take out flyers (prescience and perfect timing for no jink saves) it can dislodge guys in cover (perfect timing again, but I have 6 rolls on the table to get it) did not get misfortune in either game but re rolling saves is huge.

With them I did not lose a game yesterday, dare to say I carried both partners and the only 1 unit i lost was a free unit that I deepstruck into my opponents deployment after we had got first blood, that was 1 unit lost in 2 games.

Yes if you take the unit on its own and look at it it is expensive, but what it can do for the rest of your army is huge. Plus my issue with horrors is if the squad gets denied, either from failed psyhic test or DTW etc then its only the herald shooting at less then half strength, with this there is a greater chance of getting those shots off. As for warp flame, I acutally had more benefit then not yesterday, only 2 units survived the shooting which was terminators, but the other 6 were killed in one shooting phase and the saves were pretty hot as well. Other unit was DE warriors, failed the toughness test and then lost the last 3 guys getting me another kill point.

Are you talking about the herald + pink horrors? They're only 330 pts max with Lvl 3 psyker and an Exalted gift. They have good shooting and are a caddy for Exalted gifts like the Grimoire or Portaglyph. More importantly, however, they are a force multiplier unit. Forewarning is an awesome power which can be made to give a unit 2++ when combined with the Grimoire. Perfect Timing can be used to wipe out enemy units with 4+ saves or worse. Prescience can also be cast on other units (i.e. seekers, flesh hounds, FMC's) to make them much more deadly in combat. The way I look at it, each psyker in the army is a force-multiplier that makes another unit (or itself) much, much better.

Markymark runs 3 lvl 3 Heralds in a blob squad of 20 Horrors, which comes up to 550 points including rewards etc. While not denying it has scary shooting if it goes off and utility from Divination as deathstars go it's not as threatening as say 10 Pallies or Eldrad-Baron-Beastpack and far easier to negate.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Are you talking about the herald + pink horrors? They're only 330 pts max with Lvl 3 psyker and an Exalted gift. They have good shooting and are a caddy for Exalted gifts like the Grimoire or Portaglyph. More importantly, however, they are a force multiplier unit. Forewarning is an awesome power which can be made to give a unit 2++ when combined with the Grimoire. Perfect Timing can be used to wipe out enemy units with 4+ saves or worse. Prescience can also be cast on other units (i.e. seekers, flesh hounds, FMC's) to make them much more deadly in combat. The way I look at it, each psyker in the army is a force-multiplier that makes another unit (or itself) much, much better.

Markymark runs 3 lvl 3 Heralds in a blob squad of 20 Horrors, which comes up to 550 points including rewards etc. While not denying it has scary shooting if it goes off and utility from Divination as deathstars go it's not as threatening as say 10 Pallies or Eldrad-Baron-Beastpack and far easier to negate.

10 palaies? lovely enfeeble them from the DP's then str 6 is insta kill's yes it needs a lot of shots but it will soon be charged by a few DP's. Beast pack? again enfeeble is nice as the str 6 and str 5 instal kills and str 6 will be ignoring cover again DP goes to finish them off. Yea eldrad will hurt me, a lot, but sure I will risk getting a few powers off, each herald can get off a persicion shot on a 6 so will be able to pick out a few characters (not IC's, hardly worth it) so I can get something decent in a challenge, baron will be a git though but when isnt he?.

If I take the rewards off its under 500pts, rewards are purely for benefiting the army as a whole.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
They're not obviously powerful, but they can surprise some armies with their synergy and resilience. It is one of those armies that is easy to under-estimate but that can be very good.

Of course, part of that may be due to my generalship....

Very modest of you but yes, you built the list, it suits how you play and, like Shaka Zulu forging his magic spear, fights best in your hand.

You can call me Mr. Modesty.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Are you talking about the herald + pink horrors? They're only 330 pts max with Lvl 3 psyker and an Exalted gift. They have good shooting and are a caddy for Exalted gifts like the Grimoire or Portaglyph. More importantly, however, they are a force multiplier unit. Forewarning is an awesome power which can be made to give a unit 2++ when combined with the Grimoire. Perfect Timing can be used to wipe out enemy units with 4+ saves or worse. Prescience can also be cast on other units (i.e. seekers, flesh hounds, FMC's) to make them much more deadly in combat. The way I look at it, each psyker in the army is a force-multiplier that makes another unit (or itself) much, much better.

Markymark runs 3 lvl 3 Heralds in a blob squad of 20 Horrors, which comes up to 550 points including rewards etc. While not denying it has scary shooting if it goes off and utility from Divination as deathstars go it's not as threatening as say 10 Pallies or Eldrad-Baron-Beastpack and far easier to negate.

I see. Yeah, putting 3 Lvl 3 heralds in the same unit is risky. It'll be overkill against some units and fodder for others, especially if your opponent takes MFU threats (multiple fast units).

Lack of Overwatch can definitely hurt it. My units could do nothing when charged by the wraiths, assuming they can get past your other "defenses".

MarkyMark wrote:

Used this yesterday, 550 points in 1k point list, guess what? did not lose the unit once, nor any of the heralds. They did overkill every unit they shot at even with DTW and failed psyhic tests. As Jy2 says, it is a force multipler, its 23 guys yes, but its also prescience forewarning and grimoure on my DP, its also free troops with the portalglpyh, it can give itself 2plus invul re rolling 1's. IT can take out flyers (prescience and perfect timing for no jink saves) it can dislodge guys in cover (perfect timing again, but I have 6 rolls on the table to get it) did not get misfortune in either game but re rolling saves is huge.

With them I did not lose a game yesterday, dare to say I carried both partners and the only 1 unit i lost was a free unit that I deepstruck into my opponents deployment after we had got first blood, that was 1 unit lost in 2 games.

Yes if you take the unit on its own and look at it it is expensive, but what it can do for the rest of your army is huge. Plus my issue with horrors is if the squad gets denied, either from failed psyhic test or DTW etc then its only the herald shooting at less then half strength, with this there is a greater chance of getting those shots off. As for warp flame, I acutally had more benefit then not yesterday, only 2 units survived the shooting which was terminators, but the other 6 were killed in one shooting phase and the saves were pretty hot as well. Other unit was DE warriors, failed the toughness test and then lost the last 3 guys getting me another kill point.

I'd be somewhat concerned also about putting "most of my eggs in 1 basket". The problem I see is mainly when you go up against MFU armies and also MSU armies. It'll be awesome if this unit had something like Tau target locks, but personally, I prefer to spread out my threats. It makes target priority so much harder and allows you to deal with multiple threats as well.

But play against the more elite armies and Tzeentch Herald-spam will kick arse and take names! It can especially be very good against the premier ally in the game today....the IG blob squad. If you get Perfect Timing, that unit is history!

providing they don't deny or no other psychic defense is around, so its always a gamble.

Deamons might become a top contender once spacewolves en Eldar loose their ridiculous psyker Defenses...

 jy2 wrote:

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
They're not obviously powerful, but they can surprise some armies with their synergy and resilience. It is one of those armies that is easy to under-estimate but that can be very good.

Of course, part of that may be due to my generalship....

Very modest of you but yes, you built the list, it suits how you play and, like Shaka Zulu forging his magic spear, fights best in your hand.

You can call me Mr. Modesty.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Are you talking about the herald + pink horrors? They're only 330 pts max with Lvl 3 psyker and an Exalted gift. They have good shooting and are a caddy for Exalted gifts like the Grimoire or Portaglyph. More importantly, however, they are a force multiplier unit. Forewarning is an awesome power which can be made to give a unit 2++ when combined with the Grimoire. Perfect Timing can be used to wipe out enemy units with 4+ saves or worse. Prescience can also be cast on other units (i.e. seekers, flesh hounds, FMC's) to make them much more deadly in combat. The way I look at it, each psyker in the army is a force-multiplier that makes another unit (or itself) much, much better.

Markymark runs 3 lvl 3 Heralds in a blob squad of 20 Horrors, which comes up to 550 points including rewards etc. While not denying it has scary shooting if it goes off and utility from Divination as deathstars go it's not as threatening as say 10 Pallies or Eldrad-Baron-Beastpack and far easier to negate.

I see. Yeah, putting 3 Lvl 3 heralds in the same unit is risky. It'll be overkill against some units and fodder for others, especially if your opponent takes MFU threats (multiple fast units).

Lack of Overwatch can definitely hurt it. My units could do nothing when charged by the wraiths, assuming they can get past your other "defenses".

MarkyMark wrote:

Used this yesterday, 550 points in 1k point list, guess what? did not lose the unit once, nor any of the heralds. They did overkill every unit they shot at even with DTW and failed psyhic tests. As Jy2 says, it is a force multipler, its 23 guys yes, but its also prescience forewarning and grimoure on my DP, its also free troops with the portalglpyh, it can give itself 2plus invul re rolling 1's. IT can take out flyers (prescience and perfect timing for no jink saves) it can dislodge guys in cover (perfect timing again, but I have 6 rolls on the table to get it) did not get misfortune in either game but re rolling saves is huge.

With them I did not lose a game yesterday, dare to say I carried both partners and the only 1 unit i lost was a free unit that I deepstruck into my opponents deployment after we had got first blood, that was 1 unit lost in 2 games.

Yes if you take the unit on its own and look at it it is expensive, but what it can do for the rest of your army is huge. Plus my issue with horrors is if the squad gets denied, either from failed psyhic test or DTW etc then its only the herald shooting at less then half strength, with this there is a greater chance of getting those shots off. As for warp flame, I acutally had more benefit then not yesterday, only 2 units survived the shooting which was terminators, but the other 6 were killed in one shooting phase and the saves were pretty hot as well. Other unit was DE warriors, failed the toughness test and then lost the last 3 guys getting me another kill point.

I'd be somewhat concerned also about putting "most of my eggs in 1 basket". The problem I see is mainly when you go up against MFU armies and also MSU armies. It'll be awesome if this unit had something like Tau target locks, but personally, I prefer to spread out my threats. It makes target priority so much harder and allows you to deal with multiple threats as well.

But play against the more elite armies and Tzeentch Herald-spam will kick arse and take names! It can especially be very good against the premier ally in the game today....the IG blob squad. If you get Perfect Timing, that unit is history!

The beauty is I dont HAVE to put all the heralds in one unit, and most games I probably wont as that unit will draw a lot of fire it was mainly a test to see how they did and it was quite impressive but I think 2 heralds in a squad might be better normally. Guard blob was one thing I was thinking off, mainly as a friend of mine runs it with Azreal so perfect timing wouldnt be that good, but misfortune would . Main reason was the amount of precision shots I can target the 4 or 5 sargs in the squad and take them out they are there for challenge fodder, take them out and the challenges then become a little more interesting...

My usual list includes fateweaver, 3 lvl2 armoured winged DP's with 2 greater 1 lesser reward (Staff instant str 8!) few horror squads and a few heralds with exalted rewards.

 Valek wrote:
providing they don't deny or no other psychic defense is around, so its always a gamble.

Deamons might become a top contender once spacewolves en Eldar loose their ridiculous psyker Defenses...

It's really too early to tell if they might become a top contender IMO. They can for sure dominate in any single game, but over a series of games (i.e. 5-8 games like a GT), I suspect they will become susceptible to the dice, and this is not even factoring in psychic defense. Rune priests and runes of warding only exacerbates this situation, making an inconsistent army even more inconsistent (and frustrating).

MarkyMark wrote:

The beauty is I dont HAVE to put all the heralds in one unit, and most games I probably wont as that unit will draw a lot of fire it was mainly a test to see how they did and it was quite impressive but I think 2 heralds in a squad might be better normally. Guard blob was one thing I was thinking off, mainly as a friend of mine runs it with Azreal so perfect timing wouldnt be that good, but misfortune would . Main reason was the amount of precision shots I can target the 4 or 5 sargs in the squad and take them out they are there for challenge fodder, take them out and the challenges then become a little more interesting...

My usual list includes fateweaver, 3 lvl2 armoured winged DP's with 2 greater 1 lesser reward (Staff instant str 8!) few horror squads and a few heralds with exalted rewards.

I'm actually going to test out the "Pinkstar" herald build in what I will call "The Battle of the Deathstars" (yes, it's going to include Draigowing, the Farsight-bomb and a Deldar Jetseer Council). I think it's going to be interesting.

That's a pretty good list you have, though I'm not a big fan of Fateweaver anymore. I much prefer the LoC for its versatility and will take my chances with the Warp Storm (and Grimoire).

In all my Daemons games I've lost an MC to the Warp Storm result of 3 at the worst moment possible.

Rewards are also pretty random; if you don't roll the FNP and re-roll saves they're pretty useless.

Don't forget the Deldar Beastpack!

Yeah, the Warpstorm has hurt me at times as well, lowering my Invuln's to 6's while I was out in the open against Tau. It is moments like these where daemons will fumble. They can, of course, recover like I did in this game, but against certain armies run by good generals, they will make you pay.

You can't really count on the rewards as well, though the way I play, I look at the them as bonuses instead.

It's going to be a 4-man mini-round robin tournament and as a representative for the space elves, I've decided to use the Seer Council instead. From my experience, the beastpack just dies too easily. I wouldn't call it a true deathstar, but more of a mini-star (like my Necron wraithstar).

I think the horrors benefit more with the complete army, being able to enfeeble a unit first then spam str 6 is too good of a combination, the problem with horrors is in combat they suck balls really!, although I have yet to lose a large squad in CC (think i lost a few guys I got from warpstorm table in one game, and a few of the smaller units).

In a test like that I dont think the horrors will do that good tbh. I can think of better deathstars from the daemon codex (khorne herald spam with bloodcrushers or fleshhounds maybe?)

As for the greater rewards, armourbane fleshbane is good, means you dont have to smash attack AV and still wounds on a 2plus against iron armed MC's (nids other daemons etc, espically the GUO). str 8 ap1 lance is also good as it gives you something to overwatch with and shoot with if you get buffs/debuffs on the psyhic table, the 3plus armour is good for GD's that dont have it (LoC looking at you!) and if you do get 3plus on a model that has 3plus take a default weapon and combine that with the default weapon from lesser reward and you have two CC's for plus 1 attack yes its a gamble and the plus 1 attack is not worth 30pts but the rest imo are


I am trying the LoC out again as fateweaver cannot do squat once I lose two DP's, I had good success with LoC when I first started playing daemons and at least I can get down n dirty with him!.

Definitely. The Pinkstar isn't a viable deathstar without support. But for my "experimentation", I can actually fit a LoC along with the Pinkstar for support at 1K. I suspect that the 2 of them together will make for a good double-team, with the LoC protecting them from assault. We shall see.

For the gifts, I prefer the defensive ones as greater daemons are not that hard to kill without the buffs. The exception would be the thirster. For him, I don't mind the offensive buffs as well as the defensive ones.

For sure, it goes without saying re roll invul plus 1 wound IWND 4 plus FNP are huge, I was just expanding on the other ones that are definatly not as good as can still be useful

There isn't a way to reliably get the gifts for defence though is there?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
There isn't a way to reliably get the gifts for defence though is there?

No, but with 2 greater rewards, there is a good chance that you will get something.

Defensive gifts include +1W, re-roll Invuln's, 3+ save and 4+ FNP. Assuming you don't already have the 3+, that is 4 out of 6 gifts that are defensive in nature. Now with 2 gifts, you have a 4/3 chance to get a defensive gift.

And then you've got the psychic powers. Although there is some overlap (i.e. Precognition and re-roll Inv's, 4+ FNP and Endurance, Invisibility or Forewarning with 3+), a Lvl 3 psyker has about a 50/50 chance to get one of these powers: Precognition, Forewarning, Iron Arm, Endurance and Invisibility, any of which makes your MC much, much more survivable especially when combined with the gifts.

For me, I try to take as many rewards and psyker levels as I can on my FMC's. This makes them exorbitant in cost but can also make them much, much more effective.

tbh jy2 getting the staf for the LOC is not bad either, its only 10 points and he becomes S8 ap2, i would consider that.