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Un™likely.

All I want is for the minis to look great. The rest can be totally ignored.

 Alpharius wrote:
Talizvar® - that Hard Rant™ was...awesome!

Thank-you.
Oddly, it makes it all worth while knowing at least one person read it, never mind appreciated it.

I am at a point in my career I KNOW I could manage this project and have fun doing it and make people happy and excited.
Heck, I have had to deal with the China issues where at every turn they try to do shortcuts with little or no permission (they are MUCH better at accuracy of product now).

The glacial slow problem is:

China is making the parts (Far away, spot decisions made as hick-ups are found = difficult to manage if not on-site).
Who is doing the dies again????
Ninja Division did the design (and would have to help with deciding where the models are broken up on the sprue).
Palladium will want to review every tiny bit of what gets done.
Harmony Gold will have to be informed and heaven help you if the tooling is started and they want changes.

Lastly:
Kevin reserves the right to make a multitude of changes at the last minute as he feels he is under pressure.
He will then realize as well that he alone cannot make all the changes he wants in the time frame he wants and he will blame/fire a multitude of people and force things along and drag it out at least another month and a half. The only hope is that he may restrict this to the rule book since this is within his comfort zone.

Mini-rant ended.

Not enough ® in there...

And thanks for the clarification - I thought maybe someone already commented on a playtest or quickstart version.

 Alpharius wrote:
So, for those that are already saying that the 'official' rules will be no good - how do we 'know' this already?

We don't know it for sure. I saw some very alarming issues IMO in the tiny bit that they posted during the kickstarter but they haven't released anything publicly since Gencon except for a few datacards which still had some of the issues that were raised during the kickstarter (shooty giant robots have more close combat options than a Street Fighter II arcade character). I can't comment on the Relic Knights stuff and have no idea how those rules are but Palladium announced that they became MORE involved in the rules during the summer (after stating for almost 6 months that they'd be largely hand off) and Palladium rules always have been and progressively have become even worse messes.


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vitae_drinker wrote:
Perhaps by working together they will cancel each other's awfulness and create THE©™! BEST©™! DAMN©™! RULES©™! EVER©™!

Unlike algebra where two negatives make a postive, I don't think game rules work that way. I suspect a closer analogy would be trying to cover up the smell of poop in a public bathroom by puking in the corner. The poop smell may not be as individually noticeable but the overall atmosphere certainly hasn't improved.

I think that this project is quickly spiraling out of control, particularly if Kevin is taking a more active role. I will be surprised if we have them by Gencon of next year.

Well, there IS a less than artificial timeline Palladium has to adhere to:

How long does it take to burn through $1.44 million with little incoming revenue?

I suspect Kevin will spring into action at around the $100,000 mark.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, there IS a less than artificial timeline Palladium has to adhere to:

How long does it take to burn through $1.44 million with little incoming revenue?

I suspect Kevin will spring into action at around the $100,000 mark.

I suspect Kevin will spring into action when someone finally kicks him in the arse so hard it lifts him off the floor.

What do you mean spring into action? Do you mean like "crises of treachery" spring into action. Everything must be sold! Save PB! That would bode ill for the project.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Talizvar® - that Hard Rant™ was...awesome!

Thank-you.
Oddly, it makes it all worth while knowing at least one person read it, never mind appreciated it.

Make that at least two people.

While we're at it, how about a blast from the past? From Palladium's January 3rd, 2013 weekly newletter thingy;

Some outsiders looking in have questioned Palladium going into an unfamiliar market with a new product line. I think, however, that all questions and doubts will be put to rest when more details are presented. Our thorough research indicates this is a tremendous opportunity to make Palladium truly strong again. And the talented people working with us have the expertise that Palladium does not have itself. You don’t pass up an opportunity like this when it comes your way. As Robotech® fans ourselves, we are working to make this game line gorgeous to look at and fun to play. We want it to be everything Robotech® fans as well as Robotech® gamers could want. We want you to go wild over this product line. We’re excited. The people working with Palladium are excited. The people at Harmony Gold are excited. This is going to be something special.

Emphasis mine.

So, January 2013: "Don't worry guys, we totally have this under control! We know people who know how to do this!"

January 2014: "Don't worry guys, we have no idea what's going on but we're sure it's completely under control!"

Man, if I dropped this kind of weapons grade snark in the comments I think I might come up on murder charges.

Of course, after reading through the entirety of the comments and various forums I've chatted about this on, it'd easily be considered justifiable homicide.

I'd take a break from reading the comments for a bit, Forar. Much like Palladium, I decided to not read, comment, or interact with pledgers for several months in 2013 and they were the most peaceful Kickstarter months I had. Just the bad grammar and vulgarity of a single new poster who insists on posting in a luzls haha butwhipe! format is enough to make your head explode.

I think I'll take your advice, warboss. I'm sick of the "Quality in 2034!!!" people. Seriously, is there a backer out there who's mindset is "Rush me some crappy miniatures now!!!"? If that's what they think, that's some terminal idiocy.

Also, there's someone in the comments who would really like a video of someone taking a deuce. Or maybe Kevin doing that. I don't know... I just...

Yeah, yeah - it's worth some laughs, but at the end of the day it sucks. Sucks, I say!

Did Mantic delay (albeit minimally) the Kings of War kickstarter delivery for "quality"? Was Sedition Wars delayed to make sure the best possible product got out? I'm actually asking because those are the two high profile kickstarters that I almost cut my Kickstarter ribbon on before Robotech and I really am glad that I missed out on both.


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Kendachi wrote:
I think I'll take your advice, warboss. I'm sick of the "Quality in 2034!!!" people. Seriously, is there a backer out there who's mindset is "Rush me some crappy miniatures now!!!"? If that's what they think, that's some terminal idiocy.

Also, there's someone in the comments who would really like a video of someone taking a deuce. Or maybe Kevin doing that. I don't know... I just...

Yeah, yeah - it's worth some laughs, but at the end of the day it sucks. Sucks, I say!

Yeah, the deuce video guy is the one I was referring to. But.. just so you know... his vulgarity, bad spelling, 1337 txt speeak, and whatever else he can pile on is because he's on a Kindle.. and because China! (I couldn't resist that last part)

 warboss wrote:


Yeah, the deuce video guy is the one I was referring to. But.. just so you know... his vulgarity, bad spelling, 1337 txt speeak, and whatever else he can pile on is because he's on a Kindle.. and because China! (I couldn't resist that last part)

Wow! A Kindle you say? Isn't it a great world where we have wifi under bridges?

I wonder if the money a palladium claimed to gave spent on advertising actually meant lobotomising an army of fanboys to defend Palladium?
Kevin posts in an update he's disappointed with progress, fanboys wave flag and cheer.
Backer posts a reply also expressing disappointment, fanboys aggressively attack.
What it really needs is a well written post to Palladium, Ninja Division and the "fans" reminding them that not all backers are Palladium fanboys. For many I'd say this is their first exposure to Palladium and they really need to address their current public image. Rapid fans and moronic incompetence would have killed this kickstarter and shouldn't be accepted as the norm now.

 Forar wrote:

While we're at it, how about a blast from the past? From Palladium's January 3rd, 2013 weekly newletter thingy;

Some outsiders looking in have questioned Palladium going into an unfamiliar market with a new product line. I think, however, that all questions and doubts will be put to rest when more details are presented. Our thorough research indicates this is a tremendous opportunity to make Palladium truly strong again. And the talented people working with us have the expertise that Palladium does not have itself. You don’t pass up an opportunity like this when it comes your way. As Robotech® fans ourselves, we are working to make this game line gorgeous to look at and fun to play. We want it to be everything Robotech® fans as well as Robotech® gamers could want. We want you to go wild over this product line. We’re excited. The people working with Palladium are excited. The people at Harmony Gold are excited. This is going to be something special.

I am sooo wildly excited that I have to close my eyes because the above quoted BURNS MY EYES.

Say the mantra everyo:ne "Wait till April to cast thy reproach, and only then raise the pitchfork and torch!"

They are like the scorpion in the story: "It tis their nature."

What are the odds the gameplay will be anywhere near as deep as X-Wing?

Not great.

And that's from the thread's resident optimist.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What are the odds the gameplay will be anywhere near as deep as X-Wing?

1:98.

Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.

I can't wait to read through the actual rules!

Mike1975 wrote:
Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.

I can't wait to read through the actual rules!

I'd rather have a game with deep and complex rules than take off 20 models per side.

There's always homebrew, I guess.

Mike1975 wrote:
Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.

I can't wait to read through the actual rules!

Ironically, Mike, I don't think the system is simpler than x-wing despite the differences in model count. I do admit that the damage system is more complex in X-wing as it goes beyond just number tracking but I'm not sure how the rest plays. You've tried your own massively expanded version of the quickstart rules we were shown. I fear the influence of Palladium will make the game much more complicated but not add any significant depth, similar to the issues I've found with the RPG 2nd edition Robotech rules. The overly complicated but easily abusable LOS system and relative emphasis on close combat options in a shooting anime game are indications of pointless complication without depth.

Just as a note as well, the date on the latest press release for Robotech (scroll way down to the Tactics "catalog" entry and not the explanation up top) has the delivery date pushed back to April. It's doable at this point as a date for getting some of the product out (but likely just the start with 5,000+ backers) but that IMO would mean that most everything else goes perfectly from this point on. With the 3d prints still being sent back for corrections, I don't think we'll meet that date.

Finally, I figured I'd offer in this thread first before revising my swap shop post but if anyone is interested in trading a resin Miriya for a metal Miriya or Max figure, feel free to PM me.

Well X-Wing, one attack, roll 2-3 dice, defenders rolls 2-3 dice and depending on what pips show up you figure out if you hit or not. Tactics is one attack roll, unless you shoot a wad of missiles and one dodge roll. Movement is also much simpler in Tactics. I would say Tactics is faster flowing. If you want more complex you need to decide how complex vs how long you wish to play. Battletech is incredibly complex but take hours to play a lance on lance battle. That's 4 on 4 for non-BT players. Now if you want other rules there is Heavy Gear, CAV, Dreampod's rules, Mekton, and Alpha Strike just to name a few. Choose what works for you and go with it. Trying to hope every game will fit your bill is the wrong way to go. Also fighters can have numerous add-on making each unit pretty unique. You will find only a few unique units in Tactics and a few upgrades in comparison.

As far a HtH, I can't say if and how the rules have changed. It is all conjecture until we see the real rules. If the HtH rules are pretty close to what was in the Demos I personally will use my own rules that I created for HtH that I feel are well balanced. I always thought BT HtH was also stupid. A Kick doing as much as an AC-20 on the Atlas, meh.

Mike1975 wrote:
Trying to hope every game will fit your bill is the wrong way to go.

*snip*

It is all conjecture until we see the real rules.

I'm not trying to do that though but rather I'm simply pointing out concerns that I had from reading the small amount of info they've given us. I was actually very impressed that they didn't use the frankenstein %/d20 rules for the combat to emulate the RPG. Overall, the rules seemed passable for mass combat if pared down a bit for the model counts even further. I'd have preferred less granular damage tracking but they did what they did (again) to emulate the RPG stats (unfortunately). I'd have preferred that they figure out what works well on the tabletop instead of just using a simple formula from the wild guesses used in the RPG. If I had been evil overlord of the galaxy, I would have included some optional rules to emulate RPG combat encounters in a separate chapter rather than apparently shoehorning them into the core rules... but I'm not suprised that they did given the game's clunky name (Robotech Tactics would have been much better IMO).

In any case, I agree with the last part I quoted though but that ball has been in Palladium's court since May 20th. I remain cautiously pessimistic due to my long and much reinforced experience with Palladium (most recently with the 2nd edition RPG rules).

 warboss wrote:
Just as a note as well, the date on the latest press release for Robotech (scroll way down to the Tactics "catalog" entry and not the explanation up top) has the delivery date pushed back to April.

Do you have a link or quote for that? Because the front page is still on the "nope, no release target at the moment" and their update from the 9th says Spring.

The UEDF sourcebook has a release date of April. Perhaps you saw that?

Here is the front page paragraph:

"Barring any unexpected delays, the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ box game and initial expansion sets should go to manufacturing soon. An exact street date is unknown at this time and we’d rather not speculate."

Here's the most recent update's timeline:

"Release Date: Yet to be determined; Spring 2014."

Considering their giant "look, guys, who knows? I mean, man, who really knows?" post, even giving a month would be highly optimistic, not to mention one that's only 2 months past the current one.

Even by "spring" I'm assuming they mean "June", as in the end of spring. And that'd just be for the first packages going out. Trying to get the non-EU stuff shipped in June/July (before they have Gencon to attend to) would seem to be the plan, if one extrapolates that far.

But, as noted, even that requires them to be on top of things and not get a factory slot in May or whatever.

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Just as a note as well, the date on the latest press release for Robotech (scroll way down to the Tactics "catalog" entry and not the explanation up top) has the delivery date pushed back to April.

Do you have a link or quote for that? Because the front page is still on the "nope, no release target at the moment" and their update from the 9th says Spring.

The UEDF sourcebook has a release date of April. Perhaps you saw that?

You're correct about the source of my confusion. I saw the April date one line above the Robotech Tactics picture and incorrectly linked the two.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
Since Tactics is made to play with large squadrons it is designed with a system simpler that X-wing. If it wasn't then games would go on for hours. There are characters with special traits and upgrades for units but not nearly the variety of X-wing. This is a good thing though. Games can be played with 20+ unit per side in less time it will take a 3 on 3 X-wing battle.

I can't wait to read through the actual rules!

I'd rather have a game with deep and complex rules than take off 20 models per side.

There's always homebrew, I guess.

I would hate a game with complex rules. I don't want to have to read a thick booklet and/or watch a dozen videos just to get to the first game.

If you have time for complex rules in each new game you play, you have time to homebrew.

So much for this being a skirmish game.

 Cypher-xv wrote:
So much for this being a skirmish game.

In their defense, it's not being packaged and sold as a skirmish game. They did however say they're would include smaller squad army composition for more skirmish sized games. The problem is that with the almost complete silence since the KS regarding the rules (only broken by the posting of a few datacards), I can't be certain that they didn't drop that. I hope not because the battlecry pledge that I got isn't big enough for the bigger sized squads they initially posted. I'd have to add all my Q-Raus, N-Gers, and Gnerls together into a frankenstein squad as well as tack on all my specialty pods to the regults instead of using them by themselves. I do hope they will support the smaller sized army format officially in the game. I don't want to continue the long standing tradition of having to beg other players to house rule stuff to work like with the RPG.

Yeah. They haven't said much about it lately, but the basic idea of the skirmish seems pretty simple. Most "upgrade cards" are 1/2 a core card, and the skirmish apparently just used the upgrade cards as the basis for squads. Smaller model count, obviously a much smaller points total, go to work with a handful of figures, enough to see a variety of mechanics but not enough to bog a table down.

I hope it's there too. Much as I expect my friends to want to play "omg 12 hours! All the points!" style games, I think learning the basics while we have only a few models built apiece with the skirmish version (or just want to slip in some quick games with a handful of units) would be ideal.

Also, keep in mind that "20 models on the table" might represent from 1 to 5 squads, depending on what upgrade cards are chosen and how many points are spent on characters and unit upgrades.

It could be 5 squads of 4 Veritechs, or 1 squad with an Officer's Pod, a Recon Pod, and 18 Battle Pods By my understanding, an entire squad activates at the same time, and with rules regarding figures within 2" (as I recall) being able to 'take a hit' for another, a whole squadron card essentially acts as one giant multi-piece figure in a lot of ways. Losses of units reduce its ability to be in multiple places at once, firepower and ability to take further punishment, etc.

The more I look at it, as a miniature wargame noob, it seems like a skirmish game with a (slightly) larger wargame's model count. With the "alternating activations", it'll be interesting to see how the rules and metagame adapt to either piling an entire force into one squad, or using a swarm of smaller/cheaper squads to fill the table, etc.