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 Kendachi wrote:
Love the new avatar, warboss. I know the feeling.

Thanks! I made it last night. I'm sure some of the KS comments white knights would suggest its appropriate as they feel keeping palladium to their own promises makes you a spoiled brat like Jason...but in that comparison Palladium becomes Minmei, a capricious and annoying borderline incestuous tart who doesn't know she has a good thing going. It's a double edged sword!

This is an update today from a different kickstarter I backed for gaming mats, but I feel it's relevant to the Robotech one

The Chinese New Year, which starts on January 31st this year has actually started early at the factory making our gaming mats. Several employees left starting around January 14th with the rest departing this Wednesday. This is actually not uncommon for the smaller factories to allow employees to take a very extended CNY break. For the smaller factories, many of their employees come from the far corners of China and getting back home for this #1 annual family holiday is expected. As such, we weren't surprised by the early shut-down. However, due to the color matching efforts we have been working with the factory on (we had to get these right...no funny colors) and a few other production details, our 2nd production run is now only about 50% complete. So, we won't be able to ship ahead of the holiday. What we now expect is that the 2nd production run will be completed together with the 3rd production run by the beginning of March. So, 'Barren Wasteland', 'Space', 'Urban Combat 2', & all the 4x4' gaming mats will simply be delayed. We apologize for this. This means that some of our March commitments will now reach you in April. At this moment, nothing can be done. We appreciate your patience. On a positive note, the first shipment should arrive this week. Our plan is to send out all the 6x4' 'Grassy Plains', 'Alpine', 'Urban Combat', & 'Blast Zone' gaming mats by the end of the month; BEATING our commitments for those designs.

What are the odds the Robotech factory has already closed for CNY? Even if it hasn't, there's not the remotest chance they can get production done before the 31st.

I would be shocked if they have any of the molds finished, let alone ready to start production. The idea that they can finish production before the factory starts their new year break is bordering on the insane.

I don't believe for a second that production has already begun.

Agreed.

Their update from a while back said that they hoped to get test runs done before CNY, and even the production run. Obviously the latter would require an absolute miracle.

I've mentioned in the update comments (which Palladium actually posts in from time to time, as opposed to the general comments for the KS) that Q2 seems like it'll be a reach, and that we'll be lucky to see things by mid Q3 (in time for Gencon).

Wayne (a PB employee) popped in to say that they did indeed plan to sell RRT products (not just Limited Edition stuff at that) at Gencon, and that backers would have their stuff before then.

I think I hit a nerve.

Well, if we're to take them at their word (*winky*), then they have roughly 150 days until the first day of summer. With further recognition that the next 30-50 are likely a wash on production.

Just based on other Kickstarters, and their mold cutting to production to product in hand times, I would say June is a stretch right now. Which makes me sad, as I am in Afghanistan til late summer, so this being late doesn't bother me as much.

But all of this has bred an intense dislike for SPM and their BS rename to ND, when they suck pretty much overall. As Relic Knights will be a year late, there isn't much hope for this one in Q2 of this year. It's also funny that so much of the hate is directed towards PB, when the BS problems and outright lies from this KS and the Mega-Man KS both lie with ND/SPM. I wish I could fedex them a steaming pile of poo to really show them how awesome they are...

Oh, at this rate I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around between the two of them.

And unfortunately, based on PB's reputation, it's all but impossible to be certain where that line can be drawn.

I totally agree that between RK, MM and this, that SPM and those associated with it are building a well deserved reputation for delays, but at least they were talkative and timely with info when they had the reins. PB took over and we had weeks go by without a peep.

If ND is truly to blame for it all, then they've managed to do something impressive; they conned a con. (in a figurative sense)

 Forar wrote:
Oh, at this rate I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around between the two of them.

And unfortunately, based on PB's reputation, it's all but impossible to be certain where that line can be drawn.

I totally agree that between RK, MM and this, that SPM and those associated with it are building a well deserved reputation for delays, but at least they were talkative and timely with info when they had the reins. PB took over and we had weeks go by without a peep.

If ND is truly to blame for it all, then they've managed to do something impressive; they conned a con. (in a figurative sense)

Actually, reading the RK thread, they pretty much lied up to the "game in backer's hands" point, and then said "well, the molds haven't been cut, nothing has been printed, you're going to have to wait...".

Then, I heard that a lot of the sculpts don't look like the artwork that people pledged for. So I think that SPM is shaping up to be a bunch of charlatans, as they are the common factor in all of the KS's. Sculpts 98% complete? Yeah right. Not if you're digitally printing them for the FIRST TIME well after I was supposed to have your game in hand. Without CMON to put leverage on that weak group of individuals, and the fact that they have taken on another project when none of their previous projects are complete, I see RRT slipping to Q1 15....

KS really needs a rating system for KS Creators, so that potential backers could see that SPM/ND has a NEGATIVE score, and would steer away from whatever they are trying to peddle.

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Actually, reading the RK thread, they pretty much lied up to the "game in backer's hands" point, and then said "well, the molds haven't been cut, nothing has been printed, you're going to have to wait...".

Then, I heard that a lot of the sculpts don't look like the artwork that people pledged for. So I think that SPM is shaping up to be a bunch of charlatans, as they are the common factor in all of the KS's. Sculpts 98% complete? Yeah right. Not if you're digitally printing them for the FIRST TIME well after I was supposed to have your game in hand. Without CMON to put leverage on that weak group of individuals, and the fact that they have taken on another project when none of their previous projects are complete, I see RRT slipping to Q1 15....

KS really needs a rating system for KS Creators, so that potential backers could see that SPM/ND has a NEGATIVE score, and would steer away from whatever they are trying to peddle.

Unfortunately, Palladium has been pulling the same schtick for decades including recently with their private RPG book crowdfunding. The first NGR book was in the "final stages" of development only few weeks away from going to the printer... but took over a year to get out. The second book funded a month or two later (and due out similarly) still isn't out and is over a year late fast approaching a year and a half. The funny thing is that the RPG books are the company's bread and butter for 30 years so you'd think that Palladium would have a somewhat accurate (<1 year!) timeframe for when they should come out. When you've got a company that bad supposedly managing a second company that has its own serious and recent issues regarding project delivery, pinning the blame on any one person or company without first hand knowledge is just guessing.

 Salacious Greed wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Oh, at this rate I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around between the two of them.

And unfortunately, based on PB's reputation, it's all but impossible to be certain where that line can be drawn.

I totally agree that between RK, MM and this, that SPM and those associated with it are building a well deserved reputation for delays, but at least they were talkative and timely with info when they had the reins. PB took over and we had weeks go by without a peep.

If ND is truly to blame for it all, then they've managed to do something impressive; they conned a con. (in a figurative sense)

Actually, reading the RK thread, they pretty much lied up to the "game in backer's hands" point, and then said "well, the molds haven't been cut, nothing has been printed, you're going to have to wait...".

Then, I heard that a lot of the sculpts don't look like the artwork that people pledged for. So I think that SPM is shaping up to be a bunch of charlatans, as they are the common factor in all of the KS's. Sculpts 98% complete? Yeah right. Not if you're digitally printing them for the FIRST TIME well after I was supposed to have your game in hand. Without CMON to put leverage on that weak group of individuals, and the fact that they have taken on another project when none of their previous projects are complete, I see RRT slipping to Q1 15....

KS really needs a rating system for KS Creators, so that potential backers could see that SPM/ND has a NEGATIVE score, and would steer away from whatever they are trying to peddle.

CMON has been in charge of all RK manufacturing, and until recently all communication on that Kickstarter. While SPM did miss an important design deadline a year ago, they are probably not responsible for all of the delays. CMON is the one that interacts directly with the factory. The mentioned poor sculpts was also on CMON for showing pre-production models without checking with SPM first.

The interactions between publisher/design studio are too murky for us to assign blame as casual observers. Especially when all parties don't have spotless histories. I've heard of numerous issues with the CMON ran Sedition Wars KS too. And Palladium is, well, Palladium.

And in the end, we're still talking about overseas manufacturing which is just going to exacerbate any project level problems that already exist.

Warboss and CaulynDarr,

I agree with both of you. I do not have any first hand knowledge.

However, the common denominator in both RK and RRT is SPM/ND. CMON is not, by any means, a spotless company. However, they have delivered the goods with Zombicide and Rivet Wars so far. I am the un-proud owner of two sets of Sedition Wars. It isn't anywhere near what Mike suggested was going to be made, and after reading the attrocious ruleset, have never taken it out of its box. I didn't partake in the Guilds of Cadwallon KS, and have no insight on it, but Zombicide is a great game, and the 2nd KS went pretty smoothly. Rivet Wars had some things change, but they got the Box Game out on time, and are portraying themselves as on track for on-time fulfillment.

I am not a RK backer, so don't know what CMON is saying or portraying, but CMON has nothing to do with the figure making, mold cutting or digital sculpting. That all resides on SPM/ND, as it does with RRT and most likely with Mega-Man. It also would appear that someone from SPM/ND had something to do with the KS's for both RRT and Mega-Man, as the same Risks were written for each. So I would say that a majority of the failure stems from the poor practices of the Design Studio, as two successive projects are horribly behind schedule, when great things were promised. Do the Publishers have some fault in this? Yes, of course. But it is hard to have the manufacturer make something that hasn't made it's way off the computer yet....

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Warboss and CaulynDarr,

I agree with both of you. I do not have any first hand knowledge.

However, the common denominator in both RK and RRT is SPM/ND. CMON is not, by any means, a spotless company. However, they have delivered the goods with Zombicide and Rivet Wars so far. I am the un-proud owner of two sets of Sedition Wars. It isn't anywhere near what Mike suggested was going to be made, and after reading the attrocious ruleset, have never taken it out of its box. I didn't partake in the Guilds of Cadwallon KS, and have no insight on it, but Zombicide is a great game, and the 2nd KS went pretty smoothly. Rivet Wars had some things change, but they got the Box Game out on time, and are portraying themselves as on track for on-time fulfillment.

I am not a RK backer, so don't know what CMON is saying or portraying, but CMON has nothing to do with the figure making, mold cutting or digital sculpting. That all resides on SPM/ND, as it does with RRT and most likely with Mega-Man. It also would appear that someone from SPM/ND had something to do with the KS's for both RRT and Mega-Man, as the same Risks were written for each. So I would say that a majority of the failure stems from the poor practices of the Design Studio, as two successive projects are horribly behind schedule, when great things were promised. Do the Publishers have some fault in this? Yes, of course. But it is hard to have the manufacturer make something that hasn't made it's way off the computer yet....

Correlation is not necessarily causation. Especially with a sample size of only two. I was also under the impression that master molds where created at the factory. And given that the majority of production masters for RK where done 6 months ago, I can believe that the last few months could have all been factory issues.

The all at once approach that both these KS took is probably the root cause of most of the problems. The ones that have chosen to release in waves seem to be much less susceptible to delays. With all the moving parts I can very much see minor setbacks get extremely amplified. It's why I'm holding off on backing any other miniature game kickstarters for the foreseeable future. Mobile Frame Zero, RK, Ogre, and RTT; I have not had the best of luck so far.

I don't know about you guys, but the delay really doesn't bother me as much as the attitude involved.

It makes me feel like a sucker every time I see PB post something that sounds like a circus announcer trying to explain why the elephant isn't on stage yet.

There are so many things they could be doing right now to actually use this delay to their advantage, like tell us more about the rules or release a pdf of the theoretically finished rulebook to backers with printable cards so we could at least try the game while we wait.

Or release more stat cards.

Or talk about these tournament initiatives that they've had dangling in the press release for over half a year.

Or show off some characters, because that's a mechanic we haven't even touched on other than Roy costing a half a squad all by himself and Rick apparently being an afterthought.

Or, as you've noted, show off more of the rules.

Etc, etc, etc.

Oh well, it'll be interesting to see what our version of the "Erm, not great news everybody" update is like.

My bet is a picture of another 3d printed prototype and some excuse about chinese shipping groups going on strike as well as someone at ND having to take the week off because a random angry fan kicked their dog.

I'm thinking that the next update will be just as thin as the other recent ones. After all, Kevin said "The next time we report something, we want it to be solid, so it will probably be a few weeks."

Unless they try to gloss over CNY by saying "OMG! SPRING! You'll be pooping rainbows by June!" or some such. And a shapeways printed looking something. Whee...

Forar - did you mean Roy at half a squad's price?

Yeah. Apparently what I thought and what I typed didn't exactly match up.

Okay guys, this totally probably doesn't belong here, but does anyone else remember this coloring book:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Robotech-Coloring-Activity-Book-1985-Macross-Harmony-Gold-/201009691169?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item2ecd1c7a21

I swear to god this isn't my auction and even though I don't know any of you, this is literally the only crowd I know of that might appreciate this. Mods feel free to slap the crap of of me (in an internet fashion) if I am doing a bad thing here.

I just miss talking about robotech/macross with actual gamers.

Never seen it. I do remember my youngest brother getting the atac from SC. I played with that toy more than my brother. It wasn't a valkyrie but it was a giant robot that transformed. Heck if not for those macross designs I would never have bothered with battletech. The only downside to that game is all your mechs have the same boring pose:[/size]

Edit: That was weird, with the multi posts.

Cypher-xv certainly has made his point there...

I wonder if Cypher-xv ever played Battletech and why...

Ahh the wonders of posting from your mobile phone

(I almost said cell phone, Gahhh my brain must be becoming corrupted)

I probably would have never looked at battletech myself if it wasn't for the macross designs.

I am honestly taken aback at how long it has taken for a Robotech mini's game to happen. At the very least, why didn't PB/HG capitalize on the results of the settlement and start cranking out macross minis in 1/285 right afterwards?

At this point, my list of "Do not Kickstart" companies is simply getting bigger:

CMON
Palladium
ND/SPM

Don't forget Mantic!


Or are they cool again?


Man, they need to pick a competency level and stick to it.

You forgot anything attached to defiance games. Edit: Mantic was cool? I always thought they were just cheap.

Don't forget the one that's making those non sister minis. Toughest girls of the galaxy I think.

Nothing wrong with Mantic!

You can put Golden Egg Games on the list though. Backing Fallen City of Karez is my biggest KS regret to date.

Oh, and I'm reliably informed never back anything by Gareth-Michael Skarka, he's years behind his one and only solo project, keeps looking for more money and starting work on other joint projects or contracts, abuses people who question where the promised RPG is, starts fights with actual successful companies like Evil Hat, and generally behaves like he's the greatest writer in history and is above listening to any of your peasant gak, he's creating, when it turns out he's just a mediocre content producer who developed a big ego after having one or two small supplements to something published. I don't really RPG though, so really only going by what others say.

Palladium weekly newsletter:

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™

Things continue to move forward on this front as the engineering is being fine tuned for final mold-making and mass production. The engineering layout for the Valkyries was reviewed this week and we were very pleased. There were only a few minor details to be addressed but otherwise they looked freakin’ gorgeous. What a relief.

Meanwhile, the intrepid (and somewhat beleaguered) Jeff Burke continues to hammer away at creating images for the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ color guide which we’ll be adding to the back of the rule book. That’s front, side and back views of . . . well, everything Macross mecha.

We are still unable to lock down a likely release date at this time, and may have to wait until after the Chinese New Year (a celebration that lasts a couple of weeks!) before we have something concrete to tell you. You’ll know when we know. Keep the faith. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is absolutely coming out in 2014, Kickstarter supporters will get product before retail, and this game is going to be epic fun.

So... yeah.

Apparently when Wayne (from Palladium) said:

Creator Palladium Books on December 13
@Alex, No, I'm Wayne Smith from Palladium.
@Forar, We should certainly have a solid date by the end of the year. That's not to say it will come true, but by then we should have some sort of assurance or reasonable schedule of when everything should happen from the manufacturer.

He meant "by the end of Chinese New Year, three months from now".

And (some) people wonder why we have such a hard time taking them at their word.

Oh well, they keep doubling down on the "we'll have RRT stuff for sale at Gencon" statement, we're looking between that and the "spring 2014" tentative date, which ends June 21st, we have a vague timeline in place already.

So 150-200 days to go, were they to hold up to either statement.

;-)

" Chinese New Year (a celebration that lasts a couple of weeks!) "

Really? REALLY? I've never heard of that, Kevin. Tell me more!

feth me.