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They delivered (late) and IMO the quality in the minis just isn't there. Especially the addons - they're significantly out of scale with what I expected.

 jacobus wrote:
What happened with Sedition Wars? There's so many gaming Kickstarters these days I can't keep track of all of them.

Lots of minis were warped out of scale messes with poor vent placement choices obscuring detail due to bad QA/oversight at all steps (design and production), people reported off center printed board tiles, and the rules were poorly thought out and full of typos to the extent that they needed to make a second edition/printing before the KS fullfillment was done because what they sent out in wave 1 was so bad (and they charged people $5 to get the fixed rules in later waves). Quality didn't result from a delay in that one despite the platitudes.

 warboss wrote:

Lots of minis were warped out of scale messes with poor vent placement choices obscuring detail due to bad QA/oversight at all steps (design and production), people reported off center printed board tiles, and the rules were poorly thought out and full of typos to the extent that they needed to make a second edition/printing before the KS fullfillment was done because what they sent out in wave 1 was so bad (and they charged people $5 to get the fixed rules in later waves). Quality didn't result from a delay in that one despite the platitudes.

Quoted For Emphasis, and Sad, Sad Truth Bearing.

What a mess that one turned out to be.

And yeah, "Delays For Quality!" cries don't always ring true in the end...

 Alpharius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Lots of minis were warped out of scale messes with poor vent placement choices obscuring detail due to bad QA/oversight at all steps (design and production), people reported off center printed board tiles, and the rules were poorly thought out and full of typos to the extent that they needed to make a second edition/printing before the KS fullfillment was done because what they sent out in wave 1 was so bad (and they charged people $5 to get the fixed rules in later waves). Quality didn't result from a delay in that one despite the platitudes.

Quoted For Emphasis, and Sad, Sad Truth Bearing.

What a mess that one turned out to be.

And yeah, "Delays For Quality!" cries don't always ring true in the end...

The digital prints are looking good so far, so lets hope that translates well to the plastic modling process. I am upset at the ridiculous delays, and agree that the lateness of the project has nothing to do with improving the quality of the game and/or miniatures.

But I truly, deeply hope that RRT bears no resemblence to the abortion that was Sedition Wars. I still haven't ever got replacements for the off center cut tiles and counters. Ugh. Terrible on both CMON and McVey Studios.....such a let down.

I just accepted that mine are off center. None of the cuts are through the "picture" they're just off center.

I do understand that some sheets were way off center and cut through the middle of the picture - and that's just unacceptable.

 Alpharius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Lots of minis were warped out of scale messes with poor vent placement choices obscuring detail due to bad QA/oversight at all steps (design and production), people reported off center printed board tiles, and the rules were poorly thought out and full of typos to the extent that they needed to make a second edition/printing before the KS fullfillment was done because what they sent out in wave 1 was so bad (and they charged people $5 to get the fixed rules in later waves). Quality didn't result from a delay in that one despite the platitudes.

Quoted For Emphasis, and Sad, Sad Truth Bearing.

What a mess that one turned out to be.

And yeah, "Delays For Quality!" cries don't always ring true in the end...

No, they don't which is why I don't take them at face value ESPECIALLY from a company known for exaggeration at best and lying at worst. The problem is that my description of the sedition wars rules as reported from multiple sources in the KS thread (didn't get it myself) pretty much describes Palladium RPG products except for that whole "fixing" things later on. I doubt Sedition Wars skipped playtesting yet the problems made it through. Also, didn't Relic Knights have alot of issues only found AFTER they posted the rules before printing during the first 6 month delay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Salacious Greed wrote:
The digital prints are looking good so far, so lets hope that translates well to the plastic modling process. I am upset at the ridiculous delays, and agree that the lateness of the project has nothing to do with improving the quality of the game and/or miniatures.

But I truly, deeply hope that RRT bears no resemblence to the abortion that was Sedition Wars. I still haven't ever got replacements for the off center cut tiles and counters. Ugh. Terrible on both CMON and McVey Studios.....such a let down.

They do but they're only indicative of the sculpt and not the final production method nor the care used in making it (and we may still have poor vent placement in the final product). Having multiple 3d prints should hopefully prevent the out of scale minis like the BSG/Alien/Firefly stuff in Sedition Wars was. People were explaining that the warped bent out of shape figs were due to the PVC being taken out of the molds too quickly and/or poor mold design which shouldn't be a problem for the normal plastic stuff but may be an issue for the special characters.

Actually, I brought up Sedition Wars because someone was talking about the resale value for KS minis. Sedition Wars is selling complete for $35, whereas we payed $80 for it...

Link to where it is for sale for $35, please!

 Alpharius wrote:
Link to where it is for sale for $35, please!

This one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEDITION-WARS-BATTLE-FOR-ALABASTER-GAME-NEW-CONDITION-IN-BOX-/380816942165?hash=item58aa756455

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Actually, I brought up Sedition Wars because someone was talking about the resale value for KS minis. Sedition Wars is selling complete for $35, whereas we payed $80 for it...

Which is just under 1/2.

Given that, as I noted, we paid around 1/3 to 1/4 of the MSRP, presumably there'll be buyers at cost or more unless the line is an unmitigated failure.

As I also said, I wouldn't wager on being able to make giant piles of cash.

But considering that the MSRP of a Veritech kit (2 fighters in 3 forms each, so 6 models total) is $37 US, and the backers paid around $9 for them through Battle Cry tiers (give or take a little, depending on whether or not they had to pay for shipping, how their currency stacked up if buying internationally, etc), if they can't be sold for an amount that at least recoups that investment, this game is due for the bargain bin and a lot of stores, distributors and potential customers are going to be very angry.

There's an ebay store currently selling those Veritech packs for $24 US right now, and people are buying them, which leads me to think that it shouldn't be an unreasonable belief that one might be able to sell that $9 pack for $15-20 and recoup those costs.

That's all. I'm not saying I or others looking to sell part or all of their kit on the market are going to be rolling in cash, but merely that barring some truly epic failures, given the swell of interest from collectors, Battletech players, and Robotech fans/gamers in general, I have doubts it'll fall apart quite so soundly.

I fully recognize it's a gamble, but the success of the KS alone should indicate significant consumer interest.

I mean, unless one somehow believes that the only people interested in paying money for those models are the 5k'ish who backed the project.

Edit: hopefully my tone doesn't convey an aggressive or defensive stance as a quick re-read shows might become apparent. I simply think that, including some risk assessment, like many minis campaigns this one was loaded down with enough goodies to make it worthwhile.

I mean, does anyone really think that they couldn't get their $140-160 back if they offered up to sell an entire Battle Cry? That's like 3 times the contents of the base box for twice the price. And a bunch of that stuff will likely push the actual sticker price if one were to buy it all at a store way beyond that, possibly the 4-6+ times range.

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Link to where it is for sale for $35, please!

This one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEDITION-WARS-BATTLE-FOR-ALABASTER-GAME-NEW-CONDITION-IN-BOX-/380816942165?hash=item58aa756455

With $25.20 in shipping?

 Alpharius wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Link to where it is for sale for $35, please!

This one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEDITION-WARS-BATTLE-FOR-ALABASTER-GAME-NEW-CONDITION-IN-BOX-/380816942165?hash=item58aa756455

With $25.20 in shipping?

14.20 for me. There's a couple for $45 as well with free shipping. Just figured that was what he was talking about.

 warboss wrote:
They do but they're only indicative of the sculpt and not the final production method nor the care used in making it (and we may still have poor vent placement in the final product). Having multiple 3d prints should hopefully prevent the out of scale minis like the BSG/Alien/Firefly stuff in Sedition Wars was. People were explaining that the warped bent out of shape figs were due to the PVC being taken out of the molds too quickly and/or poor mold design which shouldn't be a problem for the normal plastic stuff but may be an issue for the special characters.

I would think with them making more than 5000 copies of the game, if not 10000, that the 4 special characters would be plastic. Well, Khiron and Miriya could both really just be upgrade parts to the Glaug and FPA. If the two SC Veritechs are different from the regular ones, then they'll have sprues all their own, as you'd need all 3 versions. But now that you've pointed this out, I'm sadly going to expect the worst for the SCs. Bummer.

I thought it was said that the only resin pieces would be the Super upgrade parts for the VF-1D's?

I haven't seen the SW stuff, the picture they are showing of the Relic Knight's battle boxes have been looking pretty good, but that's another project that's way behind, but is semi related due to Soda's part in both that and this, even if CMON is the producer there and using completely different materials. Those models will be available to the public to see and comment on at TempleCon. So I would think that will be the closest idea of the quality, until we will have the Robotech mini's are in our hands.

They did say that Rick, Roy and the others would be in the same plastic.

Far as I know, the only things that will be 'resin' are the bases, the SDF-1, and some parts of the VEF/1D pack, the latter of which might include some pewter as well.

There might be something I'm forgetting, but they definitely said Rick was going to be plastic.

Max and Miriya were in pewter and/or resin due to being a short run in the hundreds for two conventions (so far).

All plastic is good news! I don't know why they just wouldn't make a small sprue for the "super upgrade" parts. Plastic/resin/metal hybrid models suck.

My initial response is one word... Mantic. They're another company who run high profile KS that garner big bucks and they've changed the material unilaterally when it suits them from traditional (and promised) plastic to both PVC and even further to metal occasionally when it suits them. Kingdom Death did the same (although from resin to the "better" plastic .. but accompanied with a delay). The production of special characters in plastic is from a comment post many many months ago and not in the actual description of the appropriate pledge or add on graphics/text. Is it fair to judge palladium based on what other companies have done? No, but their experience might be helpful in understanding what sorts of issues palladium will encounter (and foresight apparently isn't a strongpoint of ND or PB).

A five thousand run of a miniature may sound like alot but it isn't frankly in terms of the numbers people throw around for needing to make their money back from traditional plastic that requires metal molds. Now, normally, you'd continue to rake in the dough with future sales but the special characters will be "convention exclusives" only after the KS which means they won't make that much additionally for the company. Making 5 separate molds (one for each special character) sounds pretty expensive and unlikely to me with that in mind especially if much bigger companies cost conscious companies like GW avoid doing it and always have despite selling the models direct to consumers every day (as opposed to just a few "convention exclusvie" days a year). Are there alternatives? Possibly, like a single UEDF special character sprue that you just clip off pieces to add to the normal kits. In that case, Roy is just 3 "jolly rogger" crew compartments/nosecones you add to a VF-1S nstead of a whole separate sprue and can fit with rick which is just a set of "super poseable" arms you add to a regular VF-1J. Khyron becomes an open cockpit and fits with the Miriya on the same. Heck, you could probably put all 4 on a single sprue and just make a single mold. They just add those sprues along with one of the already created base models (such as a glaug for Khyron, FPA for miriya, etc) and they're done with only a fraction of the initial cost that they'd incur otherwise. YMMV but that is the only way I personally see the specials coming in plastic. Another alternative is to do them in resin or cheaper PVC (which has the shrinkage and flash issues described above). Again, the above is just an educated guess based on what other companies have seemingly done faced with the same situation and Palladium/ND have shown us that they're not above unilaterally changing things when it suits them (see the switch in convention Miriya from resin to metal for a model example and the KS delivery date for an example of an altered KS promise).

The best situation would be if they came in plastic but it also is the most unrealistically optimistic. I certainly hope they prove my post wrong though just like I used to hope back in May last year that they'd prove my initial pessimism on their ability to deliver on time wrong. I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade but I just think that when dealing with the double whammy of both crowdfunding and Palladium that one should sets the goal posts more in tune with realism rather than the overly optimistic tone and claims of posts and updates.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:


I'm kinda surprised you don't like the show though considering how many nods it makes to the original SDF macross.

Nods are one thing, but if the series isn't good, it isn't good. I'm not really an anime fan. Well, let me qualify that - I like Miyazaki, Matsumoto... i like the original Gundam stuff, things like Votoms and SDF Macross, Emeraldas and Harlock... so I'm not really a modern anime fan. I like those other series and creators precisely because they aren't full of anime norms. Really annoying characters, ridiculous physics, modern anime nonsense. Frontier was full of it. I recently watched Attack on Titan because it was recommended to me - and it's fantastic, but merely because of the strength of the plot and the settings. It's good _despite_ it being anime - as it's full of annoying characters and ridiculous physics that are cringe-worthy and almost made me stop watching it on several occasions. Attack on Titan is able to get past it's own handicap of being anime, whereas Frontier does not. Like Miyazaki recently said - the problem with the anime industry is that it's full of anime fans... storytelling and character development take a backseat to the stereotyped tropes of the format. Frontier is a hollow shell of what it could have been and the "nods" to SDF Macross only made me, as a viewer, feel even more distanced and critical as it's nothing like the original. (this review very nearly mirrors my own opinions: http://www.anime-planet.com/reviews/a552.html)

I agree that Macross F has elements to make it popular for its time and all of the anime you listed have tropes from their time too. Frontier is really light on current anime tropes. At least it's not a harem with a guy who attracts like 80 women for no reason. I'd definitely have issues with the show if that was the case. AoT was great and I love how he goes out of his way to make fun of current manga tropes specifically Shounen manga. The one thing that bothers me is that Mikasa is a horrible trope of a women who can't do anything without her man and Eren can't realize what he has because he's the protagonist.

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Link to where it is for sale for $35, please!

This one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEDITION-WARS-BATTLE-FOR-ALABASTER-GAME-NEW-CONDITION-IN-BOX-/380816942165?hash=item58aa756455

With $25.20 in shipping?

14.20 for me. There's a couple for $45 as well with free shipping. Just figured that was what he was talking about.

Yeah, I think that was the one. But you'd have to pay shipping no matter who sold it to you. I also seem to remember Miniature Market putting it on Black Friday clearance for about that much. Either way, since we pledged $80-$100 for it, it was not a case of just not making a profit. That could still happen with Robotech Tactics, depending on the end result.

Received my reply from Jeff Burke at Palladium about a refund. It went, and I quote:

"Unfortunately we are not able to issue a refund for this project. We hope you understand."

Well, actually I don't. I'd like to know why they are unable to issue a refund ("we can't" doesn't seem to be a valid reason to me), especially considering how far behind schedule they are. Uggh, we'll see how far I have the energy to take this.

 jacobus wrote:
Received my reply from Jeff Burke at Palladium about a refund. It went, and I quote:

"Unfortunately we are not able to issue a refund for this project. We hope you understand."

Well, actually I don't. I'd like to know why they are unable to issue a refund ("we can't" doesn't seem to be a valid reason to me), especially considering how far behind schedule they are. Uggh, we'll see how far I have the energy to take this.

How much do they have you hooked in for? If you do not mind me asking.

$140. So I'm not a huge fish, but that is a relatively large chunk of last year's gaming budget.

Maybe I'll go to Gencon for the first time this year and see how my $1000 investment is paying off.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Maybe I'll go to Gencon for the first time this year and see how my $1000 investment is paying off.

Take a raincoat. That way when they piss on you and tell you it's raining, it doesn't ruin your clothes!

 jacobus wrote:
Received my reply from Jeff Burke at Palladium about a refund. It went, and I quote:

"Unfortunately we are not able to issue a refund for this project. We hope you understand."

Well, actually I don't. I'd like to know why they are unable to issue a refund ("we can't" doesn't seem to be a valid reason to me), especially considering how far behind schedule they are. Uggh, we'll see how far I have the energy to take this.

This has me absolutely speechless.

This whole thing is turning into a bad PR campaign imho.

Well, if he burnt down his business, the investigators would figure it out pretty quickly. But if dozens of enraged customers just happened to burn down his business, the insurance company would have to pay out the big bucks. Then he can grab the rest of the KS funds supposedly spent on books "lost in the fire," and spend the rest of his life sitting on a beach, earning twenty percent.

He would be an exceptional thief.

Very, very, very happy I sat this one out...say what you will about GW, at least they'll make an attempt to rectify quality issues with minimal hassle.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Very, very, very happy I sat this one out...say what you will about GW, at least they'll make an attempt to rectify quality issues with minimal hassle.

I hear you there!

I briefly contemplated going in on this one because, duh!, Giant Robots.

But then I realized my favorite giant robots are Giant Robo, Gaiking, Getter Robo and stuff like that.

Bullet dodged!

Though I do feel bad for all the Robotech fans who are in this one, and I hope they get their stuff as soon as possible, and that they're happy with the end results!

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Link to where it is for sale for $35, please!

This one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEDITION-WARS-BATTLE-FOR-ALABASTER-GAME-NEW-CONDITION-IN-BOX-/380816942165?hash=item58aa756455

With $25.20 in shipping?

14.20 for me. There's a couple for $45 as well with free shipping. Just figured that was what he was talking about.

Amazon has it with free shipping:

http://www.amazon.com/Sedition-Wars-Battle-for-Alabaster/dp/B00B2WL3C4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391780341&sr=8-1&keywords=sedition+wars

$35.93

Jake

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
and spend the rest of his life sitting on a beach, earning twenty percent.

What you did there. I see it.