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Don't forget you guys we need a shirt with the fanboys in a circle like in the movie human centipede surrounded by little Kevin's farting rainbows.

The imagery in this conversation has gone a bit too goatse for my liking...

 Azazelx wrote:
The imagery in this conversation has gone a bit too goatse for my liking...

Could be worse bub. At least were not mentioning all this in the RRT ks comms section.lol

 Kendachi wrote:

I just discovered that Raging Hero's TGG hasn't even a pledge manager yet.

I thought we were doing poorly with Palladium.

I guess we know what it would be like if Kevin was French!

I'm not sure if that is a bad thing though. What advantage has finalizing the pledge manager 10 months ago (and opening it over a month late at that point) given us? None. We just gave Palladium even more money on a troubled project way, way, way upfront. They're like a bad contractor that wants the full payment upfront and rushes to the bank to cash the check minutes after he gets it. The pledge manager accomplished only one thing and it was for the pure benefit of Palladium who seemingly have done nothing in the meantime (considering they were 98% done and within 45 days of manufacture start almost a year ago).

That's a fair point. My group was in for (off hand) a Reckless, maybe an extra box or two and some add ons. 2/3 of what we ended up contributing in total.

Had they waited longer to launch/end it (and honestly, I was having my doubts in August/September, but we stuck with it anyway) we might not have gone that extra distance.

It was sensible at the time, based on their 'December, maybe even earlier!' estimate. September was only 4 months from that target, so compiling the extra cash and numbers was totally reasonable.

Now... yeah, obviously they failed on all kinds of levels.

Thanks to brookM for linking the site over on the RH thread!

I made up a quick clock for this kickstarter as well. I stayed away from the "suicide pact" terminology that might get the link removed due to complaints though.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/palladium-s-gencon-robotech-mutually-assured-destruction-pact-countdown-clock

So for those interested in the rules I've trying to do a more detailed write up than what I have done before. He's where I've started. I'll add more during the next week or two. Here is what I have for now. Feel free to ask any questions.

Alright guys, here is a much more extensive review of the rules and what a game setup would be like. I already have my table set up but I will still give a brief bit of info on everything I can think of. First off, keep in mind that this is the wet dream for many of us that grew up and watched Robotech as kids. Knowing that also keep in mind that the rules are made to be quick to play and easy to learn. I’ve played Battletech for many years and I tend to want more detail that what is here in some of the rules and that shows through as I was goofing off and making my own rules set a few months ago.

1. Table Set-Up and Terrain. Regardless of if your terrain is a bunch of rocks, trees, lava, or a swamp; there are 3 types of terrain: Open, Rough, and Deadly. Open is easily moved across such as plains, small brush, lighter woods, or shallow water. Rough can be heavy forest or severely rocky terrain that costs a unit more time and effort to cross. Deadly is impassible such as a raging river. Players place their terrain on the table and then determine what are the limits or boundaries of each piece of terrain. If players have a bunch of loose trees the players should agree on where the terrain starts and ends, the limits, before starting. Rough terrain costs 2 inches per inch moved. Deadly terrain cannot be walked through and is considered something like Lava. It can be flown over though. Cumbersome units like the Mac II treat Rough terrain as if it was Deadly terrain.

Personally I like more of a variety of terrain but as I’ve said I played Battletech where you have infantry and vehicles and they do not have the same mobility as a mechanized unit like a Regult. Regults can walk unhindered in water that would be prohibited for foot infantry or cyclones. This will have to wait till the next generations of stuff comes out or for some sort of Advanced rules book.

If you have some buildings it is also a good idea to decide which ones are which by using the descriptions in the book. I personally don’t plan on trying to track building damage and use buildings only as terrain features. If you want to blow some up it’d be a good idea to decide what buildings are what. I think using a small piece of a post-it with the building designation and sticking it on the roof works well. You can then write on the post-it how much damage the building has taken as you play. Other methods can get clunky.

2. Now that the table is set teams can pick their forces. In this game I’ve chosen a single Squadron for each side. The Zen player has an Attack Squadron and the UEDF use a single Veritech Squadron. An attack squadron consists of one Glaug/Officer’s Pod and 9 Regults/Battlepods. The UEDF Veritech squadron consists of one VF-1J and three VF-1A’s. These rules have remained the same as to what was in the KS Beta release a while back. One Squadron is required per 150 points in the game and you can choose two support cards and one special per Squadron. Some cards have built in upgrades; if you buy the upgrade all the units on that card get the upgrade. Some upgrades improve the squadron AND it’s supporting units. Here is a link to the Force Orgs that I have been using. The points may have changed slightly since then and the 2nd and 3rd gen Force Orgs are ones I made on my own messing around with the game.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vRE1tM1BySzVwSHc&usp=sharing

3. My table is a bit large at 4 x 8 so I set the VF’s at one end in Fighter mode; you have to choose what mode they start in and all the units in the squadron start in the same mode. So if you have 4 Veritechs from the Squadron card and two more VF-1A’s from a support card and a VF-1S from a special card, you have to start them all on the edge of the table in the same mode. Of course when they are first activated they can change however they want and in any combination they want. The Zentraedi are set up on the opposite side of the table behind some light cover, some rough terrain with some trees on it.

Now there are 2 types of Cover, light and heavy. Light cover is like billboards, trees, something not completely solid. Heavy cover is something like a solid hill or building. You can mix and match. You can have rough terrain and light cover like some swampy terrain on Kashyyyk (That’s the Wookie homeworld for those that don’t know) and some good tree cover. This means you have rough terrain that provides light cover. You could also have open terrain with heavy cover like a city where you are hiding behind a building. Terrain effects movement, cover depends upon the thickness and type of cover your unit has.

4. Step 1 - Now each player will get look at his Force Cards and what units he has on the table and determine the number of Command Points (CPs) that he has. Command Points = Life. Players use them to Dodge attacks, Roll with and Attack, and many other things. They are actions or attacks per melee from the RPG. Having one Squadron the UEDF player gets one CP per fighter for a total of 4 AND 2 more for the VF-1J that has a Leadership of 2 for a total of 6 Command Points. The Zentraedi player has one Glaug, this will give him 5 Command Points; one for the Glaug itself and 4 more because a Glaug has a Leadership of 4. Regults have the Life is Cheap ability and do not generate Command Points. This is the Command Phase and it is the very first thing players will do each and every turn.

5. Step 2 - Now the next part of the Command Phase involve deciding who moves first. Both sides roll 2D6. The highest roll wins, if the roll is a tie the player with the unit with the highest Leadership ability wins, in this case the Glaug has a Leadership of 4 so the Zentraedi will win ties until the Glaug is destroyed. If your Leadership is the same on both sides, the side that Activated very last on the last turn goes first this turn. The player that wins initiative can opt to allow the opponent the first activation.

6. Step 3 – This is where if you have wind, poor visibility, special rules like bombardments or aerial drops, all of those are taken into account.

7. Now that the Command Phase is done the players now get on to the action…
I’ll add some meat to this once I get home and start rolling the dice and taking pictures.

Yknow, they really should follow Cthulhu Wars leads and offer an olive branch to their backers, be upfront and honest about where they are and offer a realistic serious timeframe about what we can expect, and then do the right thing and throw us a bone with some extra gak for putting up with their shenanigans.

Mike1975 wrote:
6. Step 3 – This is where if you have wind, poor visibility, special rules like bombardments or aerial drops, all of those are taken into account.

Should not exist in a "fast paced" game.
I think PB is having trouble deciding if they're trying to have a new fast paced game, or a game that can replicate their RPG rules. The two are absolutely contradictory.

rigeld2 wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
6. Step 3 – This is where if you have wind, poor visibility, special rules like bombardments or aerial drops, all of those are taken into account.

Should not exist in a "fast paced" game.
I think PB is having trouble deciding if they're trying to have a new fast paced game, or a game that can replicate their RPG rules. The two are absolutely contradictory.

These are optional so only used if you want them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gameplay is designed to be fast paced, in fact when I have made suggestions that could slow down play they are often rejected.

Also keep in mind that you do need a good deal of optional stuff because not everyone wants a straight beer and pretzels game. Some people want to be able to use more realism.

Mike1975 wrote:
Also keep in mind that you do need a good deal of optional stuff because not everyone wants a straight beer and pretzels game. Some people want to be able to use more realism.

I disagree. Optional stuff can wait until the rules are more than 98% done and get released online (HAH!) or in a supplement book.
Get the rules done. Get something actually finished. Then give a gak about expanding it.

I guess I'll agree to disgree, not everyone has the same expectations on level of detail for when the game is released. Having some stuff and options for those who like more detailed games as optional rules seems a good idea to please as many people as possible. I think much of these were added during playtesting so, to me, that means that someone thought that it would be a good idea who was actually playing the game.

 warboss wrote:
Thanks to brookM for linking the site over on the RH thread!

I made up a quick clock for this kickstarter as well. I stayed away from the "suicide pact" terminology that might get the link removed due to complaints though.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/palladium-s-gencon-robotech-mutually-assured-destruction-pact-countdown-clock

Ey buddy, always glad to help out a fellow victim of a poorly executed Kickstarter.

Having optional rules isn't a bad thing. Even making sure they fit clearly within the regular framework ahead of time isn't a problem for me.

But when the game is supposed to be played in one hour with up to 100 units on the table, there are limits to how many little extras fit in before it drowns in the attempt.

I mean, even detailing them as "advanced rules", to what end? Special encounters? Does that indicate the main/core rules are the "basic" ones? Has the stance on playing 'fast' and intuitively been cast aside, since surely the idea is for players to move to more advanced rules once they master the basics?

An hour is 3600 seconds. Say a game plays out over 6 turns. Worst case scenario, Zentraedi Swarm List versus Zentraedi Swarm list, each figure has 6 seconds or so to complete its actions. Some time is saved as units are destroyed, and some speed will be gained when up to a quarter of those figures are all in one squad, having up to 2.5 minutes to complete their actions (up to 24 movements, 24+ attacks, still a ton to do in a short timeframe, not to mention opponents weighing out options, rolling dice, using special abilities, marking notes/damage, etc).

Conversely, a small scale force. 14 (or 16, in your rules) VTs per side, 28 figures total. Each figure now has 21 seconds to complete a turn (around a minute and a half per squad of 4, or 3 minutes per cluster of 8).

Not to mention refreshing command pools, double checking cards, etc, etc, etc.

Now, will most games be played out with a Tournament-like hard lock of 1 hour? Probably not. Was the "one hour for a 300 point game" number perhaps a bit exaggerated back in the campaign days? Perhaps it was! Maybe they actually found it was more like 80 or 90 minutes long. But these are some of the tidbits we have that butt up against the rules as we've been presented them. If there are literally 50-100 figures on the table, the standard rules can't have us checking fiddly line of sight with our iphones and laser pointers on a half dozen targets. A 300 point game wouldn't take an hour, it'd take an entire day, picking the perfect position to attack/defend from, calculating water depths and movement penalties/bonuses uphill and downhill (which are apparently gone, but got left in the last version we got access to), carefully choosing the angle of attack to flank in crossfire positions, this isn't a 'fast paced game', it's far too simulationist while claiming to replicate a cartoon that played fast and loose with physics a couple dozen times per episode, and might as well have been prefaced by "any issues that strain your suspension of disbelief are caused by wizards".

Now, as always, I'm going to preface this by saying kudos, Mike. You continue to offer up what you can/wish to for critique in the hopes of spurning conversation.

Unfortunately, between utilizing the RPG as your basis (an already flawed system that doesn't lend itself well to such things if taken without a massive, horse-killing heaping dose of salt) and a need to not violate an NDA while under the eye of a rather litigation prone company, they become the only target, the low hanging fruit, and whatever critique I lob against it, the thousands of backers (and potentially thousands or tens of thousands of other players world wide) will probably be ten times as vicious and one tenth as forgiving/understanding of any faults or flaws in the 'official' rules.

If PB thinks they can just stumble their way through this, they are going to realize what a stirred up hornets nest looks like once the first backers crack open their boxes and begin sharing rules (in context and out) for the world to see.

Their chance to hide behind "it's still in development! Not final!" died months ago when the rules were supposedly done. If more than minor tweaks remained, either they weren't actually done, or they need to yell at their playtest group and think about what they've done. Between the model concerns and the rules silence (HG enforced or not, that is a point of contention for many), they need to make a concerted effort to avoid shooting themselves in the foot. Or even worse, having the bullet continue on and kill a golden egg laying goose, because if tangible damage is inflicted on the Robotech franchise, I imagine losing the license would be the least of their troubles.

Also, I'm getting ranty. Clearly it's time for lunch.

Forar just said exactly what I was thinking but I'm unable to type because reasons.

So you can just read his response twice. Thanks!

Well if that is the concern, think that when I speak of additional rules to add complexity I assume Advanced Rules = Optional Rules. They are things to add depth but are not required in any way to play. IF you assume, somehow, that advanced rules must be used I can understand your worries,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could easily make a battletech game take 3-4 times as long if you use every optional rule written for the game

But that doesn't address the point of the speed of play even without the optional rules.

You mentioned playtesting the speed of play. Did you ever get around to a timed 300 points per side game?

I personally did not since I played solo games and took pictures. Players with experience could do 300 points a side in under an hour easily. I'd say 45-50 minutes.

 Azazelx wrote:
The imagery in this conversation has gone a bit too goatse for my liking...

Are we still talking about the gaping seams?

I made the mistake of looking at the KS page again today. My interest in Robotech overall dies a little each time I check it out.

Mike1975 wrote:
I personally did not since I played solo games and took pictures. Players with experience could do 300 points a side in under an hour easily. I'd say 45-50 minutes.

I asked if you would give it a shot to test the theory, and you said you'd give it a try. It was months ago, but we definitely talked about it. Not saying it was some kind of commitment, just thought I'd check in.

45 minutes for 65+ figures, eh?

Not with the rules 'samples' we keep getting. I'm calling shenanigans.

Mike1975 wrote:
Cumbersome units like the Mac II treat Rough terrain as if it was Deadly terrain.

Oh no! Some scrub brush and a tree, my MAC II is fethed.

The hell is up with this?


Also - is there anyway I could get the countdown clock on my desktop? Forgive me if it's simple. Had a long day.

 Forar wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
I personally did not since I played solo games and took pictures. Players with experience could do 300 points a side in under an hour easily. I'd say 45-50 minutes.

I asked if you would give it a shot to test the theory, and you said you'd give it a try. It was months ago, but we definitely talked about it. Not saying it was some kind of commitment, just thought I'd check in.

45 minutes for 65+ figures, eh?

Not with the rules 'samples' we keep getting. I'm calling shenanigans.

Forar, I did play it out and I did post it. I had to subtract out time for taking pictures and writing a bunch of stuff down for the AAR. I'd have to look back in this thread, but it was there. Just not me playing against another player since I did not have anyone local at that time. I do now. 300 points is more like 16-20 UEDF and 30-40 Zentraedi


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Examples of rough terrain could be a deep body of water, an especially heavily wooded area, an area with very uneven ground or ravines, or an asteroid field.

From the rules, so rough terrain should be pretty uncommon and deadly even more so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: Open terrain in Tactics is not just like plains or roads in most games, Open terrain can include water that is not really deep and woods and even jungle or asteroids. The difference is that mecha are tough enough that they can pass through that terrain without a care. You can be in some woods that are considered open terrain and still get light cover from the woods you are in. In games like Battletech the terrain type and what cover it gives you are linked but you also have an entire page of what you can or cannot do in any specific type of terrain. In Tactics you have Open, Rough and Deadly terrain and No Cover, Light Cover or Heavy cover. Each terrain piece will be have what type of terrain it is AND what kind of cover it provides while in it. So it is in a way much simpler than many games. Also take note that Deadly terrain cannot be moved through on purpose but it is not an instant kill for units inside it. Units take damage each turn they are in Deadly terrain until they manage to get back out of it.

BS already has the cyclone 3d renders he's been talking about. It's on the RRT ks. Looks like he's going to have them printed by shapeways. The way PB has handled this mess BS's cyclones might be the only ones we'll ever see in 6mm.

Mike1975 wrote:
Note: Open terrain in Tactics is not just like plains or roads in most games, Open terrain can include water that is not really deep and woods and even jungle or asteroids. The difference is that mecha are tough enough that they can pass through that terrain without a care. You can be in some woods that are considered open terrain and still get light cover from the woods you are in. In games like Battletech the terrain type and what cover it gives you are linked but you also have an entire page of what you can or cannot do in any specific type of terrain. In Tactics you have Open, Rough and Deadly terrain and No Cover, Light Cover or Heavy cover. Each terrain piece will be have what type of terrain it is AND what kind of cover it provides while in it. So it is in a way much simpler than many games. Also take note that Deadly terrain cannot be moved through on purpose but it is not an instant kill for units inside it. Units take damage each turn they are in Deadly terrain until they manage to get back out of it.

That sounds interesting yet simple enough but obviously the proof is in the pudding and most of us won't really get the full feel of it till at least gencon.

 warboss wrote:

Mike1975 wrote:
Note: Open terrain in Tactics is not just like plains or roads in most games, Open terrain can include water that is not really deep and woods and even jungle or asteroids. The difference is that mecha are tough enough that they can pass through that terrain without a care. You can be in some woods that are considered open terrain and still get light cover from the woods you are in. In games like Battletech the terrain type and what cover it gives you are linked but you also have an entire page of what you can or cannot do in any specific type of terrain. In Tactics you have Open, Rough and Deadly terrain and No Cover, Light Cover or Heavy cover. Each terrain piece will be have what type of terrain it is AND what kind of cover it provides while in it. So it is in a way much simpler than many games. Also take note that Deadly terrain cannot be moved through on purpose but it is not an instant kill for units inside it. Units take damage each turn they are in Deadly terrain until they manage to get back out of it.

That sounds interesting yet simple enough but obviously the proof is in the pudding and most of us won't really get the full feel of it till at least gencon.

I wish I could go. For those who do, have fun. Feel free to ask any questions between now and then.

They better have some good answers and info for everyone before then though or

According to one of the Facebook groups, WRRD will be at some gaming thing showing off RRT next month.

Dave Knighthawk wrote:So I've just confirmed with Thomas Roache that he'll be coming to The Gamer's Realm (1750 Whitehorse-Mercerville Rd. Hamilton, NJ 08619) on May 17th on behalf of ROBOTECH RPG TACTICS and RED DUKE GAMES! We'll also be there to film and also showing off DRAGON CHESS and RAMPAGING JOTUNN! If you can't make it but want to see all the fun and action, follow GAMERS ON GAMES on Facebook and at http://www.youtube.com/gamersongames

I was tempted to trim out the publicity, but figured some folks might actually want to check in on it, so there you are. Or participate, if anyone is in the area. Just over 3 weeks off and perhaps we'll get some more informHAHAHAHAHAHA.

It'll just be the demo rules and we all know it.

Well, he is a playtester so he may have an even more up to date copy of the rules. I suspect the recent youtube video rant had something to do with one of only 3 or 4 people who covered Robotech on youtube getting a special demo done in his neck of the woods so soon after the public meltdown. If anything, I'd expect him to youtube the game for his channel at least.

@Mike: I'm not going to gencon either but I'm hoping that someone will post some videos. Obviously your input as to how things changed between your december copy and whatever they show at gencon will be interesting... unless maybe may, definitely June (like we always said June maybe July) doesn't get amended again.

Even if Palladium has nothing to sell at gencon, I do still expect them to run tiny demos at the booth and bigger event games on one table in the minis hall.

I'm hoping that there are at least a few changes, I've made a number of suggestions. From what I do know it seems like what they had at some conventions last year, maybe it was last GenCon, can't remember, was really close to what I got early this year.

Was at the sakuracon convention in seattle last weekend when to my surprise who should I see in the dealer's hall but ninja division! went over to ask them some questions about robotech and this is what I heard.

the test molds are either complete or being cut for all models. the Valkyrie has been particularly tricky. the test molds that are finished have had a test run which are with palladium for checking (the artillery pod is just one, ND said PB have more than that currently)

now how much of this is blowing smoke who knows. but that's what I was told at the con. they didn't have any robotech on hand to look at, just super dungeon, relic knights, and tentacle bento.

maybe someday i'll get my box of goodies