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 Forar wrote:
Or, vastly more likely, there'll be some players and hopefully maybe a few in his area and maybe he can work out some scheduled games with them sometime. Or not. Like... we'll cross that bridge in half a year when we finally have a half dozen figures built for each side. >.>

well I've noticed around me the major thing putting people off of the game is the complexity of the miniatures to assemble.

Well yeah, that's the joke. That it'll take us a month per figure.

But that might just be me. >.>

 Forar wrote:
Well yeah, that's the joke. That it'll take us a month per figure.
But that might just be me. >.>

I have on occasion been a game "early adopter" so I may have to present the game to the area.

The first step is making the models look good, I have done some 30 years of building models (since I was 15... yikes I sound old!) so it will be challenging but not anything I cannot handle (or re-sculpt, replace, pin or out and out fake-it in general). I got the proper glue for this weird plastic and I have a "Drop Zone Commander" city to play in and few items I listed in my 6mm terrain thread.

My airbrush should get me through some decent block painting, a wash applied for all those little groove details, some detail brush painting, decals (shudder) and clear coat.

Yes, if no takers (got at least three guys request to see a demo when I get something usable together) I may have to hunt down Forar if he is not bothered by the obvious obsessive personality traits...

Now that I have actually received something I think is "worth" the money I put down I find all this recent pessimism messing with my buzz, no more bad vibes people it is all:

I've put together 40 figs for the game. Some of them are easy. Some are a pain val battleoid. All and all the game is fun and I don't really have any terrible time putting figs together. The old metal thunder hawk was the worst thing I have ever built. It took a grinder to get the pieces to fit. Lol. The pieces could be easier but any gamer shouldn't really have to much of a problem.

griffen127 wrote:
I've put together 40 figs for the game. Some of them are easy. Some are a pain val battleoid. All and all the game is fun and I don't really have any terrible time putting figs together. The old metal thunder hawk was the worst thing I have ever built. It took a grinder to get the pieces to fit. Lol. The pieces could be easier but any gamer shouldn't really have to much of a problem.

Are you comparing 1" robotech game pieces to the old 10lb+ and over a foot long 40k $750 Thunderhawk that came in a wooden box and had hundreds of pieces? If so, that's a automobile to apples comparison as an orange wouldn't begin to convey the difference.

Asterios wrote:
well I've noticed around me the major thing putting people off of the game is the complexity of the miniatures to assemble.

That is the biggest issue. If they were comparable to at least a WH40K sprue where one figure is typically 2x arms, 1-2x legs, torso, head, backpack it would be one thing. But each piece is usually two pieces, so one arm is two pieces, one leg is two pieces. Unless someone has modeling or Gunpla experience, it is very daunting to the average miniatures gamer.

We had a group start assembling and at the start everyone was ok. By the time they finished two to three models, it was more like "Why did they do this?" and "This doesn't even make any sense" in terms of the style of the production kit. So by the end no one wanted to play because of frustration. Some are still interested and love the models, but they are mostly people who do put Gunpla together. On the plus side, many of them are old school Battletech players so they still have their unseen and switched over to them, so some are still sticking to it who aren't modelers.

One of my friends bought into RRT, he brought over some his models to let me have go at assembly and get a good firsthand look at everything.

Over the last 30 years I've literally built thousands of miniatures and models so one might say that I have a just a bit of experience as both modeler and wargamer. Looking over the sprues there were a couple issues that were obvious before I even began work.

1 - No part indicators
While the parts are laid out like model kits on a sprue there is no numbering or lettering system used, this makes it difficult to pair up a number of the parts like the legs and feet which have a particular mating part. It does not prevent you from building the models however it did require that I take off each of the legs parts pre-assemble them and test fit each of the feet, which required extra time and was slightly annoying. Easily avoid able by adding some sort of indicators or even using some sort of custom pin or peg arrangement for each leg that would allow the builder to quickly determine which parts mate up.


2 - Incredibly thick sprue connection points
A lot of the connection points for the sprue are very thick compared to other brands of models. This leads to larger attachment marks on the models and requires more cleaning. The connection points are all made to a really fat ball like shape, where on most other model company try to have a smaller flat runner that attaches to the piece which is also a bit longer. While on it's own it isn't hugely problematic it combos with point number three for a lot of headache.


3 - Parts are incredibly close to the sprue
The parts are all very close to the sprues, to the point where it's quite difficult to get a pair of clippers in between the part and the sprue. This means that in many cases the parts are at risk of being gouged by the clippers or the part will be come off due to being forced or being pried loose rather then being cut off cleanly. This can easily lead to the part being pitted and leaving ugly tool marks, or broken mar points which require gap filler. It also further combines with both points two and four for what I feel is the largest issue with construction.


4 - Incredibly thin parts
A sizeable number of parts are incredibly thin, all of the head lasers for instance, lasers for the Zentraedi pods, Veritech missiles, and the Defender arm guns. These parts are very tiny and will be prone to breaking while being handled either in assembly or during game play. This is further complicated by points two and three, on the small parts the sprue attachment points are almost as large as the diameter of the part itself and the closeness to the sprue makes it very difficult to remove the parts without breaking them. Your best option is to use a hobby knife to separate the pieces, which is not ideal. As any experienced modeler will tell you that part removal with clippers gives a more controlled result and a cleaner cut. It also helps avoid tiny parts springing off into the blue yonder when being cut free. Given the size of the parts they will be near impossible to find on the floor if they pop off the sprue and go flying, which occurs more often when using a knife to remove parts.

While the thin parts may be more accurate to the source material they are a total PITA and won't tend to hold up well to transport and game play. They are very delicate parts that will tend to get snapped off when they stick in transport foam or if the user isn't super careful in how they are handled and they fall over. I'm not talking about dropping them on the floor or throwing them across the room, these parts are thin enough that they will be subject to breakage from a wobbly model simply tipping over on it's own. The Zentraedi lasers are likely going to need constant repair and I don't think the Defender's arm cannons will fair much better. As they don't have any major details the pod lasers can likely be replaced by brass rod or pins, but that will take some serious dedication that I don't think the casual user will want to put in.

For display models thin parts aren't the end of the world as they just sit on the shelf and look pretty, however these are intended to be used as game pieces so they will be subject to a lot of handling and jostling around during transport which results in the fine parts seeing a lot of stress. This is why with most other wargaming models we tend to see over sized weapon and details as it increases the durability.


5 - The plastic
The plastic is bit odd, it appears to be a bit shiny or oily in appearance but to the touch it actually has a very slight grit to it. The plastic is also slightly brittle and when handling it it felt very much an actual kit from the 1980's that's been in storage somewhere. It's very rigid which is helps with details, but when being cut it feels more like it's an aged and quite brittle plastic and it makes me want to be very careful when removing them from the sprue. Even as a very experienced modeler I feel like I'm going to break everything just removing the parts. Having worked with aged plastic a lot in the past I was super careful and I managed not to break anything so far although I did have several of the pieces gouge or pit more then I would have liked. I think somebody without as much experience will have more difficult time with it and it certainly won't help the survival rate of the thin and tiny parts. The working properties aren't quite as nice as I'd see with a GW or WGF product who use a slightly softer plastic that cuts easier and doesn't mar as easily (but is still plenty rigid and durable)


6 - Somewhat soft details
They certainly aren't lumpy blobs, but there are a lot of edges that are slightly rounded and areas on the finer parts that aren't as crisp as I was expecting. Most of that stuff isn't all that visible at table distance where it'll be seen the majority of time, however anyone wanting to use these as a higher end display piece for painting is going to have to do a lot of additional work.


7- Marked difference between factions
There's a very notable difference in the detail and quality between the two factions. As many have mentioned it almost seems like the Zentraedi and RDF stuff was handled by seperate companies. The Zentraedi stuff is clearly better in overall quality and detailing, the RDF stuff not so much. The RDF stuff is still viable but it's clear that it didn't get quite the same amount of love and attention during the detailing and parts breakdown.

Overall they certainly aren't the worst kits I've assembled but at the same time there's nothing stellar to rave about. IMO they look alright but have a number of pitfalls in the product execution. On a scale of 1-10 I'd give the RDF stuff about a 6/10, the Zentraedi by itself would likely be a 7/10. I'm pressed for time at the moment so I'll cover the assembly review in another post.

Great post, would love to see some pictures when you get a chance as well Paulson Games

As much as I hate some of the decisions that GW has made over the past decade, the experience I had in assembling my first one of their new kits recently was hands down much better than what I witnessed a fellow gamer have with Robotech. Whereas his parts were seemingly needlessly subdivided and purposefully fiddly, the GW kit was very well laid out with each part labelled. Complex 3D shapes like a wolf's head complete with sticking out tongue, fur, and ears were done in three easy to find, cut, and assemble parts. It was not the case when I watched someone else with alot of modelling experience (don't know if 30 years like Paulson but he's in his 30's and a CBT player so I don't think he's green!). He damaged several of the small parts despite using the proper tools and even lost one that flew off the sprue when clipped. If I get excited enough after my first Robotech game next week to actually assemble something, I'll definitely be getting a fresh pot of testor's model master glue and new sharp clippers to *hopefully* avoid some of the issues.

In any case, thanks for the review.

Pics ahoy!

Reference for how tiny some of these parts are, not in itself a bad thing for display models, but for gaming pieces it'll require a delicate touch. At this scale many parts would likely benefit from being metal for durability, but kinda moot since the project is done in plastics.

Over the years I've had plenty of the rifleman arms break in transport and game play which are basically the same size and design but the Rifleman has metal barrels that are slightly thicker then the RRT Defender version. (the blue ones were the crappy FASA resin version in the early 90s and were super fragile.)










Super fiddley Veritech head and missiles. Overall the body parts are ok, but the heads are really tiny and overly complex IMO.
Keep in mind that on your monitor they are many times larger vs what their actual size is.
















Weird ball attachment points that make clippers dififcult, front and back views (also WTF is up with so many connection points on the upper arm?)








Vs standard size clippers (spacing isn't impossible, just difficult to work with) one extra mm in working room would make a world of difference especially with the big ball connection thing being so close as it tends to complicate the proper angling of the clippers.

That just makes me angry.

At this stage I have stopped caring about getting my pledge, I just hope Palladium go bankrupt

I don't mind PB going bankrupt after wave two is delivered.

I gotta agree with Paulson, the Guardian and Battloid figures are fething PITAs of the highest order.

The instructions? They're useless as the parts aren't numbered or labeled in any way - and the instructions aren't even right! There's detached hands and there's none of that on the sprue.

I'm really trying, but in 5+ hours I can't get arms on a Battloid or Guardian to save my life.

Assembly Review

At present I've built a pair of Tomahawks and a Defender, I have yet to build any of the Veritechs or the Spartan which have the highest part counts for the current RDF items.

The plastic takes well to standard plastic glue like Testors or Tamiya. I used Krazy Glue brand super glue as it's what I had on hand and because it sets faster then plastic glue. (I build everything with crazy glue) I didn't encounter any issues with the super glue.

It took me about 45 minutes to build the first Tomahawk and I had to fiddle around with finding the matching leg and foot parts. The second Tomahawk took somewhere around 35-40 minutes as did the Defender so there was a bit of increase in work speed, although I doubt I'll be crushing that down under 30 minutes simply because of the number of parts and the care needed when removing parts from the sprue.

Some general observations about the assembly process, there's a lot of parts the Tomahawk comes it an 17 pieces, or 19 if you want the missile bays open. The Defender comes in at 22 pieces, both of which contain a lot of parts for something this size. In comparison their older Battletech likenesses are 5 parts for the Warhammer/Tomahawk and 4 parts for the RIfleman/Defender. It's not a very fair comparison as the molds for metal and resin models are far more versatile then injected molded plastic. (As the owner of a casting company it's something I'm well aware of). But even then there are a lot more parts then likely what is needed, I'd suspect they could have brought the part count down to around a dozen parts per model and been fine.

They did try and capture a lot of detail on the models and as a result that pushed the parts count up higher. Had they been done with slide core molding (like what Wargames Factory uses) it would have allowed them to use some undercuts and fewer parts, but it's also a more expensive process. I'm not going to say the parts count is a bad thing, but it certainly does complicate the build process due to fiddlely sized parts and it significantly increases the time it takes. Not inherently bad, but you need go into assembly knowing they will be a bit more difficult then standard gaming minis like what GW, PP, or WGF produce. I think it was done fully with the intent of making the parts as detailed as possible, but when you are looking at renders that are many times larger on a computer screen it's easy to misjudge the actual reality of what size of the final parts will be.

To somebody without a lot of modeling background a 4-5mm tall part looks pretty big on screen and doesn't give much indicator of of how difficult it'll be to manipulate and assemble that part. I certainly don't think it was done out of malice to make the lives of modelers hell, but it happened due to unfamiliarity with the process and how things translate into final physical form. That's something that's built up over time and practice.

It seems like there were some hang up points that resulted in extra pieces just to capture a detail aspect that's largely hidden from view in most angles. The nose cone on the veritech battloid mode for instance. The chest and nose cone could have been one piece but when looking at the nose cone it's apparent that they wanted to capture the detail of the nose lasers and thus needed to rotate the part line 90 degrees from the torso, requiring that it becomes an extra piece. The issue is that when the model is assembled the legs and hip area block pretty much every view of the nose lasers. They easily could have been left off and 99.99% of people likely wouldn't notice or care, but being that it's a licensed product they need to make sure the details conform as exactly to the established product details as possible. So in order to capture the detail as closely as possible it needed that extra part, which will largely be ignored by gamers on the whole, and unfortunately pushes up the overall parts count. In the quest for more detail you go from what could be a simpler 8-10 count model to now having 20+. I think this largely a complication due to inflexibility and exactling nature in how the established product image has to be adhered to. No real way to work around it, but it does seem to overly complicate the design on some of the parts

The model seams
Nowhere as bad as the gaps that were shown on the prototype pieces, however they are noticeable on quite a few pieces. They actually do a decent job of hiding the torso seams on the Tomahawk and on the Veritech torsos. The main area that they are visible is on the legs. The destroid legs have a fairly complex shape to them and the only way to avoid having a seam on the face plate would have been to make each leg in 3 parts which would be even more of a pain. The Tomahawk suffers from a seam running down the center of it's back and the Defender still has a seam down the center of it's cockpit window which is more difficult to use gap filler on because it's in a recessed area. The calf area on the rear of the legs has a similar issue where the seam is in a recess. All of which can be addressed with some greenstuff or other gap filler but it's not something that will be easy for a novice builder. But at the same turn a novice builder likely isn't going to care about a display quality piece and these will work fine at a normal table viewing distance. If you had planned for display pieces you have a good amount of work ahead with the gap filling.

Assembly time
The Destroids I averaged 40 minutes on, if I had a boatload of them to build it'd probably get a bit faster but I don't think it's going to happen in under 30 minutes. Given the amount of models needed in the game it'll take a good chunk of time. Not a bad thing if you enjoy building models and the hobby aspect. But as a game looking to attract many first time wargaming converts from the rpg side I suspect that it'll be a bit challenging and frustrating at first. I think they will adjust but I'm not entirely sure it's something I'd suggest to a novice. While I don't try to turn every piece into a masterwork I do like to take the time to fill in seams and drill out gun barrels etc and I can easily see putting in another 30-60 minutes worth of work on each model to get it ready for paint. For the hobby centered guy not an issue, but the pick up and play types may find the build time a bit daunting.

You do also have to be careful trimming the parts from the sprue, thin stuff like the missiles doesn't have much detail to indicate where the attachment point ends and the part begins so you do need to take care not to cut them too short. The plastic is quite rigid and little on the brittle side so it's best to work slow when removing it from the sprues rather than mar any of the parts. I still need to take a crack at the Veritechs which seem to be the most complicated of the models.

Not Poseable
This was an area I found to be a bit disappointing, I'd though that part of the push to do plastic minis was to grant them some degree of poseability. The sculpts are more dynamic then Battletech models for instance but they don't offer anything outside of the 2 default poses on the Destroids. The arms can be rotated to give them a bit of upwards or downwards direction but that's pretty much the same range as what battletech models with separate arms offer. I think there's maybe 5-6 total poses for the Veritechs? (I'm not too sure as I haven't built any yet)

Being plastic will make it easier to convert them into other poses, but that's something that will be for advanced modelers. One of the aggravations I did encounter was that the legs and feet have specific pairings, and there's no indications of which ones belong together either from numbers or lettering or unique pin locator shapes. The hips on the Tomahawk were also a total PITA as they offer no support at the joint and the peg is very undersized. A big improvement would have been to skip using a round peg and used a square peg which would help get the leg lined up better without it popping off constantly. I suspect it was caused by inexperience by whoever made the call on how to separate and cut apart the model for molding. It doesn't stop the model from being built but it could be done better. The hip piece on the defender went together much easier as it has an identical style to the mounting point but it's slightly larger and deeper. It paired up much more easily as a result.

While I've yet to build the Regults I did notice that the foot pads are somewhat heart shaped, I think the narrow part points forward but there's no way to tell that based on the instructions and due to the lack of identifying markers.

The assembled miniatures look decent, but there's a lot of work in getting them built. I'm not sure that there's any particular strength that plastic brings to the model that couldn't have been done in metal with a lower parts count. But the reduced weight is nice and the details level is a good standard for viewing at table distance. A tiny bit soft when viewed close up but it conveys the right look for the models. The test will be to see how well all the tiny lasers hold up to game play and transport. I suspect that over time a lot of replacements with pins or brass rod will be needed.

While I love putting the Defenders arms in a raised position to be shooting I know from past experiences with my Rifleman models that it'll only serve to constantly snag them on transport foam or catch on other models causing them to break. The best counter to this while keeping the cool pose would be to magnetize them at the shoulders so when it comes under stress it can pop loose rather than break.

Do they give refunds I have lost really all appetite for this and the nostalgia has diminished greatly.

I'm fairly sure the narrow part of the heart-shaped pod feet point backwards, and the wider pat points forward.

Still, I ended up clipping most of the foot pins off the pod legs just so I wouldn't have to worry so much about finding the perfect match.

Its Sedition Wars all over again.

This will be <$20 at miniature market next year and still wont sell.

Gee I can pick the crap KSers cant i :(

Nah. It will take at least two years to get that low. And that's when I'll swoop in and buy another box!

Just like Sedition Wars.

Just in time for wave 2!

Thanks again for the comprehensive review. Certainly an eye opener. It looks like the production process signed off on some beautiful 3D renders (after an age) but did not consider manufacturing limitations beyond it being mostly possible to implement, then handed it over to a plastics firm that simply did not have the experience or detail capacity needed to make the models work as intended. A real shame but a useful reminder that plastics are hard to get right!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Do they give refunds I have lost really all appetite for this and the nostalgia has diminished greatly.

Palladium does not offer refunds, they have your money and that's all they cared about.

I put together one of each destroid and yes they are a bit slow going.
Some things I would point out:

General Points:
MOST halves fit very well together, I was surprised how little filing was needed to align the halves.
The plastic is pretty hard, similar to X-wing miniature plastic, it lended itself well to blade scraping to remove mold lines.
All models are around 20 parts plus.
I would suggest putting together the two halves of a leg and dry fit the feet on the spru to find the right one... saved me much trouble.
Most open missile launcher bays look a bit strange, I decided not to have them open exvept for the Phalanx.

Defender: The rifle twin barrels make me nervous, trim off sprue at tips first then at the sturdier back mount. Do in reverse at your peril.

Tomahawk: The better model to get together, easiest I would say. Put on arms first then the 6-pack and light since it is a very tight fit.

Spartan: Legs are the easiest of them all, the left arm is a pain (3 parts) (I used gun pod arm on the right). Suggest building left arm separate from body (in case you decided to be crazy).

Phalanx: The tiny little cockpit cap, I would suggest using a stick with double sided tape holding it, dropped the TINY thing at least 4 times.

I suppose I will hear the cry "pictures or it did not happen", will get things up soon enough: I am bracing for the veritechs.
Oh, other rule same as for painting: no caffeine before this, any shakes and good luck putting it all together.

Please post your stories, it may help me move forward rather than just a "one of each": army.

I haven't started the uedf models yet but I've had no problems with the zentradi mechs. I've already finished the starter box zentradi models. I'm moving on to the bagged extras next. Going to do the artillery ones first. I'm looking to put magnets into the launchers to make them interchangeable.

I agree with the fiddly bits comments. For a new player/builder the zentradi will be no problem.

As for painting they look good to go. And their finished size should help even novice painters do a table worthy job. Again idk about the uedf.

 dalsiandon wrote:
I agree with the fiddly bits comments. For a new player/builder the zentradi will be no problem.

Well, except for the Recon Pod, that's supposed to be a complete PITA. And some people have had some issues with the Officer and Recovery Pods regarding antennae, but those aren't apparently important unless you're a purist.

There have been inconsistent reports about the Regult torso back not having the required recess, but otherwise there seems to be little complaint there. Maybe that was an early run that's since been corrected? Hope so. The work I saw required to make them fit was pretty ugly.

The recon pod was covered in fiddly little bits. But it was the most complicated of the zentradi models. And as stated you can leave some of those things off and it's not the end of the world. But yeah fiddly bits.
I didn't have any issues with my regualts.

I built one vf-1R in all 3 modes and 3 pods. The vf-1 was a pain. Both in battloid and gerwalk. The fighter was ok, much easier than the other versions. I didn't bother adding the head to the bottom of the gerwalk and fighter. I really dislike the design choices for it. I thought we were getting sculpts from world class artist. I feel cheated. A plague on HG/PB/ND.

Sometimes you have extra bits lying around and you think, "why not?"

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sometimes you have extra bits lying around and you think, "why not?"

My eyes!
Sacrilege!
(The running destroid is awesome looking BTW, wait! is that a veritech head plunked on top??!! I take it back!)
But the horror!
(That pod looks overgunned or what... only if it was official, but you remove "Leap" capability...)
No, purity of design is a must!
No customization of a clearly defined IP!
Now I have to watch myself in case I glue on stray bits of extra stuff, thanks...

<edit> BTW, any thoughts (anyone?) on adding stuff to the bases? I am thinking I need to sand them down (too smooth) and do the PVA glue and mixed fine gravel/sand.
Seems a shame to cover up those "helpful" arrows for the 180 degree visibility arc.
May have to resort to the Warmachine rule of across the shoulders (more interesting with pods).
I have some thoughts on the one extra veritech in robot form being used as a stepped-on item for the Zen. pods.

All my stuff arrived all at once....
RDF
Zent's
RDF
Zent's

one piece sightly "broke" and that was one of the long antenna's on the recovery pod.....

Battletech units shall return

----insert evil insane laughter version 4.0 here<----

Here's another review which is nicely done, shares a lot of similar critique concerning the parts and sprue layout:

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/11/product-review-robotech-rpg-tactics-by.html