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 judgedoug wrote:
Hey guys, SecretSanta2014 for an additional 5% off at CoolStuffInc.

And again, I'd like to point out that their 50% off Warmachine/Hordes sale and MiniatureMarket's 40% off Warmachine/Hordes sale is entirely the reason that I got into Warmachine and Hordes (with Menoth, Minions, and Circle).

Very often huge sales are subsidized by the publisher in order to move product. (This is what actually happened with Privateer Press and Miniature Market. Warmachine had dropped to #4 in the top 5 minis game lists, and after the 40% sales, rose back to #3). Notice the stock levels for the Robotech product at CSI. I can easily imagine Palladium shipped them hundreds of copies at a huge discount in order for them to move a ton during CSI's Xmas sales. I know several people who are ordering or are considering ordering Robotech as we speak, due to the CSI discount. Even just the box game nets enough figs for someone to start an army, or swap with another player to get a decent sized force of one or the other.

and yet JD if they had gone with the 50% off sale right off the back, that might have been believable but the fact they started with a lower % off and have been increasing it, just tells me they are getting rid of the game to make room for other stuff, so are clearancing it out, why so soon is anyones guess, but that's what it appears to be doing, and wouldn't be surprised if that price goes even lower(unless it sells out).

I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

Asterios wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Hey guys, SecretSanta2014 for an additional 5% off at CoolStuffInc.

And again, I'd like to point out that their 50% off Warmachine/Hordes sale and MiniatureMarket's 40% off Warmachine/Hordes sale is entirely the reason that I got into Warmachine and Hordes (with Menoth, Minions, and Circle).

Very often huge sales are subsidized by the publisher in order to move product. (This is what actually happened with Privateer Press and Miniature Market. Warmachine had dropped to #4 in the top 5 minis game lists, and after the 40% sales, rose back to #3). Notice the stock levels for the Robotech product at CSI. I can easily imagine Palladium shipped them hundreds of copies at a huge discount in order for them to move a ton during CSI's Xmas sales. I know several people who are ordering or are considering ordering Robotech as we speak, due to the CSI discount. Even just the box game nets enough figs for someone to start an army, or swap with another player to get a decent sized force of one or the other.

and yet JD if they had gone with the 50% off sale right off the back, that might have been believable but the fact they started with a lower % off and have been increasing it, just tells me they are getting rid of the game to make room for other stuff, so are clearancing it out, why so soon is anyones guess, but that's what it appears to be doing, and wouldn't be surprised if that price goes even lower(unless it sells out).

So CoolStuffInc's stock room consists of a broom closet? No, it was on sale the moment it was received, which implies that it is a Publisher-funded sale, and not CSI saying 'woops, did we order a pallet? Get this out of here!" Unless CSI has vastly different customers than Miniature Market, who sold out of Robotech a week ago (at their 25% off) and got a restock in on Monday. Most likely Palladium sold direct to CSI at, say 35%-40% of MSRP (usual distributor discount, 35 or 40% of MSRP, distributor sells to stores at 50% of msrp,making about 10% profit), so CSI started the sale at 60% of msrp and moved to 50% of msrp. They would be making $10-$20 per base game sold.


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WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

Yeah, again, the Privateer Press/Miniature Market subsidized sale worked on me. I bought about 500 bucks from them during that sale after discount, so about 900 retail. Since then I've bought even more, and now I play Warmachine about once per week. That gak works.

It is not uncommon to have loss leader sales, to bring someone in with one product that you barely break even on and make profits from extras with better margins.

The problem here is that for $100 someone can get a hefty pile of the 'chaff' figures across 2 Cores. Imagine someone or a group does that, or hell even grabs 3 or 4 across a couple of friends.

So that leaves... Spartan/Phalanx packs and Artillery Pod packs. I mean, we've discussed the raw value found in the core boxes for ages, but this kind of shines a spotlight on it. Why would I spend $51 to get 6 VTs when I could spend $50 to get 5 VTs, 4 Destroids, 12 Pods and a Command Pack?

Even if I *utterly* needed that 6th VT, it'd be more efficient to get a core box and a spare VT box.

Basically, the moment you want 2-4+ expansions worth of figures that are found in the core box, it's better to go with the core box if it's remotely affordable.

As long as Wave Two remains "when it's done!", people's force building options are going to remain rather stagnant, and as much as I can appreciate them not wanting to back themselves into a corner, the very nature of this style of game kind of demands growth over time.

People point out that other games like X-Wing and Warmahordes have seen similar sales to bring in fresh blood, but those product lines also presumably had more than 7 SKUs, and new product arriving every month or two, not one set to start with and possibly 6 months to a year or more before the next wave hit shelves.

This isn't a purely apples to apples comparison.

 judgedoug wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Hey guys, SecretSanta2014 for an additional 5% off at CoolStuffInc.

And again, I'd like to point out that their 50% off Warmachine/Hordes sale and MiniatureMarket's 40% off Warmachine/Hordes sale is entirely the reason that I got into Warmachine and Hordes (with Menoth, Minions, and Circle).

Very often huge sales are subsidized by the publisher in order to move product. (This is what actually happened with Privateer Press and Miniature Market. Warmachine had dropped to #4 in the top 5 minis game lists, and after the 40% sales, rose back to #3). Notice the stock levels for the Robotech product at CSI. I can easily imagine Palladium shipped them hundreds of copies at a huge discount in order for them to move a ton during CSI's Xmas sales. I know several people who are ordering or are considering ordering Robotech as we speak, due to the CSI discount. Even just the box game nets enough figs for someone to start an army, or swap with another player to get a decent sized force of one or the other.

and yet JD if they had gone with the 50% off sale right off the back, that might have been believable but the fact they started with a lower % off and have been increasing it, just tells me they are getting rid of the game to make room for other stuff, so are clearancing it out, why so soon is anyones guess, but that's what it appears to be doing, and wouldn't be surprised if that price goes even lower(unless it sells out).

So CoolStuffInc's stock room consists of a broom closet? No, it was on sale the moment it was received, which implies that it is a Publisher-funded sale, and not CSI saying 'woops, did we order a pallet? Get this out of here!" Unless CSI has vastly different customers than Miniature Market, who sold out of Robotech a week ago (at their 25% off) and got a restock in on Monday. Most likely Palladium sold direct to CSI at, say 35%-40% of MSRP (usual distributor discount, 35 or 40% of MSRP, distributor sells to stores at 50% of msrp,making about 10% profit), so CSI started the sale at 60% of msrp and moved to 50% of msrp. They would be making $10-$20 per base game sold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

Yeah, again, the Privateer Press/Miniature Market subsidized sale worked on me. I bought about 500 bucks from them during that sale after discount, so about 900 retail. Since then I've bought even more, and now I play Warmachine about once per week. That gak works.

the thing of it is, most companies like this do not usually keep stock in for long, for the mere fact they need to sell it and move it before any interest wanes on product, so they don't have a back log of product sitting around gathering dust in their warehouse, when CSI starts putting stuff at 50% or more off MSRP then they are looking to sell out and not restock, other items they have done this with has been the case, some items usually sell out at say a 50% discount, but some items usually go lower in price then that like some of their other items which are down to 75% off or so, companies like CSI do not look at the per cost unit price but the overall order price, so say they ordered a 100 games at say $50 ea. for a total of $5K, then sold 50 games at $100 ea. for a total of $5K, they have broke even, so remaining stock is their profit margin before costs of running a business, so then they can list the remaining stock at a discount, while still making a profit, but if game sales slow down they still have room to increase the discount off, but once the discount hits 50% off then its on a downhill slope of clearancing out, remember they don't want to keep product lying around, since product sitting on the shelves is costing them money, when it comes to selling product out there its a dog eat dog world and if anything shows the slightest sign of waning in sales, it gets cut to make room for the new big product coming out.

Now this does not mean RRT is on its death throws either, it just means that CSI feels they could use the room better for something else, or something new, also they do this with even good product that has a good reputation, but sales have lagged, its all in how fast the % off increases on a product to give an idea of what sales are like, so say they increase the discount in a week on the game, that is not a good sign, also they need to clear stuff out for finalizing year sales for tax purposes remember the end quarter is the big quarter.

 Forar wrote:
It is not uncommon to have loss leader sales, to bring someone in with one product that you barely break even on and make profits from extras with better margins.

The problem here is that for $100 someone can get a hefty pile of the 'chaff' figures across 2 Cores. Imagine someone or a group does that, or hell even grabs 3 or 4 across a couple of friends.

...

As long as Wave Two remains "when it's done!", people's force building options are going to remain rather stagnant, and as much as I can appreciate them not wanting to back themselves into a corner, the very nature of this style of game kind of demands growth over time.

That's precisely the reason that GW stopped including ONLY core troops in their box sets. Dark Vengeance is a great value, but how many Hellbrutes and Lords and Librarians do you need? With Warhammer 8 as well, sure, the skaven clanrats are great, but heroes on great eagles and wizards? Meanwhile 40k 2nd/3rd and WHFB 4/5/6 were so great to split with people because they included the actual core troop models, so no one ever bought more Empire Handgunners in 6th edition.

Needless to say, I just ordered 4 more boxes of Destroids. I'm contemplating another main box set, and giving one faction/rules/dice to an interested friend for a Xmas gift.

We also do not know the state of wave 2, basically, at all, other than a few posts on Facebook and elsewhere that all the design work was done and that tooling was underway. That was a month or more ago? Since everything is all wild speculation anyway, I could see it being done in a few months and them releasing multiple retail waves as they print boxes/etc, while the KS backers get our stuff in one lump. Shrug, we don't know, simple as that.

Plus the amount of time it takes to assemble figs means that by the time you have a force ready to go, wave 2 will be available!

 Forar wrote:
It is not uncommon to have loss leader sales, to bring someone in with one product that you barely break even on and make profits from extras with better margins.

The problem here is that for $100 someone can get a hefty pile of the 'chaff' figures across 2 Cores. Imagine someone or a group does that, or hell even grabs 3 or 4 across a couple of friends.

So that leaves... Spartan/Phalanx packs and Artillery Pod packs. I mean, we've discussed the raw value found in the core boxes for ages, but this kind of shines a spotlight on it. Why would I spend $51 to get 6 VTs when I could spend $50 to get 5 VTs, 4 Destroids, 12 Pods and a Command Pack?

Even if I *utterly* needed that 6th VT, it'd be more efficient to get a core box and a spare VT box.

Basically, the moment you want 2-4+ expansions worth of figures that are found in the core box, it's better to go with the core box if it's remotely affordable.

As long as Wave Two remains "when it's done!", people's force building options are going to remain rather stagnant, and as much as I can appreciate them not wanting to back themselves into a corner, the very nature of this style of game kind of demands growth over time.

People point out that other games like X-Wing and Warmahordes have seen similar sales to bring in fresh blood, but those product lines also presumably had more than 7 SKUs, and new product arriving every month or two, not one set to start with and possibly 6 months to a year or more before the next wave hit shelves.

This isn't a purely apples to apples comparison.

And there in lies the problem, people are saying that PB gave CSI a great deal to drum up interest and yet that is not the case since they (PB) will be shooting themselves in the foot, since its sales they lose on their site, and other distributors lose, so they will want the same deal from PB, so I seriously doubt PB gave CSI a good deal, CSI is clearing out RRT to make room for other product.

 judgedoug wrote:
We also do not know the state of wave 2, basically, at all, other than a few posts on Facebook and elsewhere that all the design work was done and that tooling was underway. That was a month or more ago? Since everything is all wild speculation anyway, I could see it being done in a few months and them releasing multiple retail waves as they print boxes/etc, while the KS backers get our stuff in one lump. Shrug, we don't know, simple as that.

I don't think it'd shock anyone to hear that I highly doubt the bolded is remotely true. They could have been sharing the "3Ds"/renders and Pre Production Prototypes and 3D Printed sprue piece tests, but instead have remained silent.

They've been adamant about not providing release dates, but utter silence is not heartening.

Occam's Razor: what's more likely; that the company that took a year and a half to do 12 figures worth of molds is on the verge of doing the other two dozen or so within the next few months, or that they are simply are so far away they know that admitting/showcasing what they have done is going to stir up the pot that has just recently begun to settle again?

Is it impossible such a thing might occur? No. But with Chinese New Year Round 2 looming, I'd feel pretty comfortable betting against it happening.

Them releasing a few W2 figures sometime in 2015 before they're vaguely ready to begin delivering to backers, however, I can totally see happening.

For the good of the game and to build Hype and Buzz, of course!

So, yeah, we don't know much about W2.

But only because the people who know anything about its status haven't deigned to tell us anything about it.

And busy as they've been with delivery W1, if they were remotely as far along as such a statement might indicate, it's not like slapping a couple of images and a "here's something to whet your appetite" as an update would take much time. They certainly managed to knock out a good dozen+ such updates out during 2013 and 2014, even while putting in 120 hour weeks (minor hyperbole present).

wouldn't be surprised if they broke wave 2 into 2 waves, with the bulk units being in one wave and the Character(con/backer exclusive) units being in another wave.

 Mike1975 wrote:
GU-11 has Rapid Fire, description on card says in Battloid it can fire and additional time. It does not appear on the Armored VT cards though but it does on the Supers.

Sounds like more fodder for that FAQ/Errata that has been in the works for... how many months now?

Yes, yes, PB is busy as feth, I'm sure.

But the game is 'in the wild', models are being built, people are starting to play. Clear, concise information is needed.

Maybe they are taking PR lessons from Mantic?


It's done and shipping--no time for pictures!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ps: what is going on with APAC shipping? If Macross Island were real, they'd be the last place to get any Robotechnology.

And as has been stated a hundred times in this very thread; show, don't tell.

Frankly, it is not enough for them to simply say "progress is happening on wave 2!"

Renders, pics, actual details indicative of progress would all be great.

But, at least personally, I am well past the benefit of the doubt.

PB needs to invest in a PR firm and remove Kevin from the equation, since he does more damage to PB then any haters could ever do.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

No,, you get the product to the kickstarter backers, who already paid for the product to be manufactured, this is hardly win win, and you are a complete ass.
Oh, my mistake, you meant by not sending to backers it's win win for pathetic lying scum, and you're still an ass. Come on mate, explain to us all the mysterious reasons why PB wasn't lying about sending to backers first, I'm sick of your relentless defending, put up or shut up.

Stupid exalt button, that's not edit....

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

There is so much wrong with that statement that it is hard to decide where to start without running afoul of Rule #1. You prioritize getting the product into the hands of the consumer WHO PAID FIRST OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. You don't build a better community by screwing over the people who believed in the IP or the company enough to fund the development of the project before anyone else. Palladium has shown a pattern of shipping to those who have yet to pay or have just paid (and are at risk for chargebacks/refunds) over those who have little to no recourse and who paid in good faith expecting the same on the part of Palladium. That isn't a win win for anyone, including Palladium. They "win" by getting more in their coffers immediately but they do so at the expense of the fans who believed in them most to the detriment of the game. Only time will tell if the new folks who are buying at 50% off will be enough to replace those who were disgusted with a year and half of misdirection and broken promises.

If meeting the bare minimum of their legal responsibilities to avoid legal troubles (the number of minis at an average quality for price with mostly functional rules) while violating multiple times both the letter and the spirit of their KS contract with backers is your idea of a "win win", then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 warboss wrote:

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
I would agree with JD.. you get the product into the hands of the consumer. The product is already paid for by the distributor which is good for the publisher. This drives sales for future business and gives the consumer a good discount for the product... win win IMO.

There is so much wrong with that statement that it is hard to decide where to start without running afoul of Rule #1. You prioritize getting the product into the hands of the consumer WHO PAID FIRST OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. You don't build a better community by screwing over the people who believed in the IP or the company enough to fund the development of the project before anyone else. Palladium has shown a pattern of shipping to those who will pay or have just paid (and are at risk for chargebacks/refunds) over those who have little to no recourse and who paid in good faith expecting the same on the part of Palladium. That isn't a win win for anyone, including Palladium. They "win" by getting more in their coffers immediately but they do so at the expense of the fans who believed in them most to the detriment of the game. Only time will tell if the new folks who are buying at 50% off will be enough to replace those who were disgusted with a year and half of misdirection and broken promises.

And that's why I will never back another PB KS or pre order or anything, might as well wait till the game hits some online retailers and get it for about the same amount.

Asterios wrote:
And that's why I will never back another PB KS or pre order or anything, might as well wait till the game hits some online retailers and get it for about the same amount.

The really irritating thing about this statement is I had considered exactly this happening and then... "nah, couldn't happen, no matter how bad, it is a reasonable deal!".
Oh well, gives me a chance to gripe about Wave 2.
Buying from retail would be no fun at all.

You prioritize getting the product into the hands of the consumer WHO PAID FIRST OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO. You don't build a better community by screwing over the people who believed in the IP or the company enough to fund the development of the project before anyone else.

Warboss, I couldn't agree with you more on most of your statements, but, I feel you might be misinterpreting what I wrote. The issue I thought I was commenting on consisted of disagreeing with the notion of selling the game at a reduced price so as to make room for other products. I did not presume to downplay the ROW deliveries or saying that you should screw your backers, or alienate the people you helped you fund the game. If that was your interpretation, I apologize. The situation sucks for ROW backers right now, and I wish I could improve the situation but I can't. I agree that there is no "Win" in this big picture scenario. I wasn't commenting on that.

Thanks for the clarification. While I still disagree with what you wrote, the subsequent point clears up some of it that was mistaken on my part. I would point out though that in reference to "The product is already paid for by the distributor" statement, each and every item was also paid for FIRST by a pledger if there is a single pledge left unfulfilled that includes that item. That isn't a win for the community that according to palladium made possible the game with their funding.

Months before palladium announced by royal decree that they'd be selling at gencon before fulfilling pledges, they had the factories prioritize production of ONLY what they would be selling at gencon and not what would aid the fulfillment of the KS pledges best. That was evident when karma bit them on their donkey and they didn't get it in time. In the intervening month between containers, they managed to only ship out 5% of the pledges because they put their backers who paid a year earlier down the list of priorities. The sham vote wouldn't have affected anything even if it had been run with any honesty. The only thing they were honest about was that selling at gencon wouldn't affect shipping much because they couldn't ship much of anything because of the low priority they gave the KS compared with Gencon. They then proceeded to do the same thing with ROW backers for short term gain.

Maybe this constant reprioritization of pledgers down the list is because they're seriously short of funds and need them immediately... I dunno. I do know that I don't plan to support them again for more than $1 (so I can comment) in their future endeavors. That to me, given my interest in Robotech, is a lose lose.

 warboss wrote:
I do know that I don't plan to support them again for more than $1 (so I can comment) in their future endeavors.

Not just comment, perhaps have an equal say in voting as to how the project will be handled.

I'm sure some will see this as needless pedantry, but I don't think it can be overstated what kind of precedent they've set with the Gencon vote.

$1 to comment: a good deal.

$1 to comment and have a vote in any contentious issue that might be put before the community? An incredible deal.

Note: I'm neither implying that they should have just opened it to non-backers, or that somehow backers who gave more should have had more of a say (and frankly, such a state would have only benefitted me). Simply noting what happened and extrapolating forward.

Just a comment. The understanding that these products have already been paid for by the distributor; in this case CMON, may not be totally correct. Even in my industry, there are cases where credit for products have been extended from 30-90 days. And from the case of Maelstrom and their importer, it seems such practices do exist in the miniature industry as well so it's not confirmed that; as WRRD said, the product is already paid for by the distributor.

 Forar wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I do know that I don't plan to support them again for more than $1 (so I can comment) in their future endeavors.

Not just comment, perhaps have an equal say in voting as to how the project will be handled.

I'm sure some will see this as needless pedantry, but I don't think it can be overstated what kind of precedent they've set with the Gencon vote.

$1 to comment: a good deal.

$1 to comment and have a vote in any contentious issue that might be put before the community? An incredible deal.

Note: I'm neither implying that they should have just opened it to non-backers, or that somehow backers who gave more should have had more of a say (and frankly, such a state would have only benefitted me). Simply noting what happened and extrapolating forward.

I didn't count the vote part simply because palladium polls/votes are shams. $1 isn't worth participating in a farce where the result is preordained long before the vote is even called. YMMV of course.


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Sining wrote:
Just a comment. The understanding that these products have already been paid for by the distributor; in this case CMON, may not be totally correct. Even in my industry, there are cases where credit for products have been extended from 30-90 days. And from the case of Maelstrom and their importer, it seems such practices do exist in the miniature industry as well so it's not confirmed that; as WRRD said, the product is already paid for by the distributor.

That is a good point and true for smaller companies (at least) here in the US. I'd guess that it is dependent on if it is in the individual distributor's terms. I do know I've seen smaller developers complain about it though along with unfair return clauses where they can ship back just the covers on rpg books (just like in the broader book trade) and not have to pay anything. In the case of minis, I've heard they can just spring it on the publisher/developer. IIRC, that was part of the reason TSR ran into trouble back in the 1990's but that was more for their novels and not the RPG books.

I had read that TSR had dozens of pallets of stuff going all the way back to 1st ed.

I imagine that CSI deal direct and not thru Alliance/Distributors. Then the holiday sale is basically wholesale to the public. Makes sense to me. Distriboturs make small marring on a ton of product the same thing that CSI is doing.

The Biggest Feature of RTT is the models. The biggest downside of RTT is the models. My God it's full of sprues! Was my first thought.

$1 to gain the ability to comment on PB's next campaign is brobably all I am willing to put in.

$1 to comment and vote in a [rigged] vote to allow them to sell to conventioneers before backers doesn't seem like more value to me. Especially as I'd have to actually give them that $1 to do so as any vote will be long after the campaign closes.

I'd rather SAY I'll give them $1 so I can comment during the campaign, then withdraw it in the final day. That means I get to comment on the campaign without actually giving them any more money.

Of course, that also works for $1,000 pledges, but in case I can't get to a computer to withdraw my support in time, I won't risk that much.

P.S. Thanks Bob for the great line to add to my Sig!

 Desert Lurker wrote:
The Biggest Feature of RTT is the models. The biggest downside of RTT is the models. My God it's full of sprues! Was my first thought.

I still giggle when I look into the box of "stuff" from the RTT shipment.
I fish out some sprues and assemble, 1/2 hour to hour later, look in the box, go all wide-eyed and fish out some more...
I refuse to look at the decal sheets anymore, they concern me as much as the sprues with the bunch of tiny "stuff".

I actually like the challenge of all this but getting to a point where I can play a game with painted miniatures at my rate is probably late January.
No casual player is ever going to play this unless some "veteran" supplies the models to play with.
Or I would suggest they play Zentraedi for ease of assembly, though the Glaug chin guns LOVE to snap in half when being clipped out of the sprue.

It all looks like a mountain of plastic, bordering on overwhelming yet I want to buy MOAR! Tomahawks because it is such an iconic stomping robot to me.
I am tempted to whip-up a design for all the Zentraedi pods in Battletech format and try playing it that way (probably someone has already done this).

And on the KS comments, someone has commented that EU backers can get RRT boxes from Amazon.Co.Uk

Yes they can, at £35.85 for a Valk box! I can get 2 boxes from CSI at $17.99 each, pay $19 and change in shipping, and probably still have them before EU rewards go out for just under that amount!

Not that I will. It's a fair bet that there are some UK backers that went in expecting to sell off any extra that will have a big disappointment when their stuff gets here and the market is saturated. There will probably be some in stores bargain bins not long after EU retail gets some, so I can probably do about that without the hassle.

My apologies to WRRD, this KS ( well, actually both KS's ;-) ) has made me extremely angry, and I shouldn't take it out on fellow gamers. I'm sorry for calling you an ass.

So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

In pseudo-defense of PB on that point, that's always a risk with any "retail" KS. Mantic has had a few items that ended up being much cheaper after the KS. Dreamforge during sales also drops below KS prices if you weren't getting a bulk discount on the KS. For example, if you wanted a single Leviathan Mortis from the KS you would have paid $89. If you wanted it now, you'd pay $82.50 from Miniature Market. There have been other sales that dropped the price sub-$80 at times, and that's without tying up your money for 1.5 years (in the case of the Mortis).

Any product that's going to enter into retail distribution has a decent chance of being equal to or cheaper just owing to the way distributors work. It's not like you're going to lose a massive amount of money, but faith in the company and the desire to see them succeed (which has a value as well) should be a component of a KS pledge.

@Joyboozer Apology accepted. Thank you.Tensions have been running hot lately. This KS has been drawn out too long and angered many. It hasn't helped that those who want to see it fail or have a grudge against PB have fanned the flames.

I'm not saying that everything is rainbows or unicorn farts either. But there are quite a few things that PB is doing in the background to make the game and situation batter (FAQ's and additional content, ways to improve shipping for wave 2) If people choose to not believe that then that is their problem. I have tried to be honest with everyone here. I will give information when can, but I cannot give out information when it may be detrimental to the future of he game, or info that's given to me in confidence. Nor will I give out information I don't have. PB is a business and is tying to do good by the backers and produce a tabletop game from scratch. They are not going to be able to please everyone and there were some EXTREMELY diverse expectations for this project going in. some expectations were not met nor will they ever be met. During playtesting alone, I had several persons who wanted to take the game in directions where it simply couldn't go. Suggestions were made that would create more problems than solve. Many different styles of games and mechanics were researched from GW, Infinity, warmachine, Maifaux, and several others.. There was even a complete rewrite early in the process. Again to preserve the Show being on the tabletop.This long evolution of a game happens in most games, according to the designers that I've talked to, but it is usually in the background and it takes several months/years to complete. The problem with this KS is that it was too open and aggressive for a small company to do in the preliminary time frame. Many things that were taken as easy to do, or completed, and should not delay things have come back to delay things for weeks or with the miniatures, months, which compound the time frame of a project.. These are things that normally no one hears about or never knows about. In this KS atmosphere you the backer know that things are delayed and it is pissing everyone off..