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For the kickstarter development there are some things to keep in mind as well that can justify getting upset:
- Core deliverable timeline: Getting models made = Design, approval, mold design, mold manufacture, manufacture of sprues, packaging.

Rules were probably the easiest to develop with the least time consuming aspects of it. I thought Alessio Cavatore was involved who used to work for Games Workshop so it was not like they had newbies working on this.

It will be interesting to see if revisions could be made to the rulebook and be available for individual sale or an actual FAQ will be released.
They could make it fun and publish a sticker overlabel for the rulebook!

The real damage done to this whole thing in order to get ANY kind of market is the models are not suitable for an amateur model builder. The ONLY fix available for this is to update the "instructions" to show all configurations and a "map" published of the sprues to know what goes where since there are no labels. This may salvage things a little (I would suggest forwarding a "kit" to suppliers to provide with the Robotech game box).

I like suggesting solutions rather than griping but there is this real feeling of "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.".

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
@Joyboozer Apology accepted. Thank you.Tensions have been running hot lately. This KS has been drawn out too long and angered many. It hasn't helped that those who want to see it fail or have a grudge against PB have fanned the flames.

I'm not saying that everything is rainbows or unicorn farts either. But there are quite a few things that PB is doing in the background to make the game and situation batter (FAQ's and additional content, ways to improve shipping for wave 2) If people choose to not believe that then that is their problem. I have tried to be honest with everyone here. I will give information when can, but I cannot give out information when it may be detrimental to the future of he game, or info that's given to me in confidence. Nor will I give out information I don't have. PB is a business and is tying to do good by the backers and produce a tabletop game from scratch. They are not going to be able to please everyone and there were some EXTREMELY diverse expectations for this project going in. some expectations were not met nor will they ever be met. During playtesting alone, I had several persons who wanted to take the game in directions where it simply couldn't go. Suggestions were made that would create more problems than solve. Many different styles of games and mechanics were researched from GW, Infinity, warmachine, Maifaux, and several others.. There was even a complete rewrite early in the process. Again to preserve the Show being on the tabletop.This long evolution of a game happens in most games, according to the designers that I've talked to, but it is usually in the background and it takes several months/years to complete. The problem with this KS is that it was too open and aggressive for a small company to do in the preliminary time frame. Many things that were taken as easy to do, or completed, and should not delay things have come back to delay things for weeks or with the miniatures, months, which compound the time frame of a project.. These are things that normally no one hears about or never knows about. In this KS atmosphere you the backer know that things are delayed and it is pissing everyone off..

WRRD, 1st. off I do not offer you an apology, I do not feel you deserve one at this time, also am I one of those ones who you say has a grudge against PB? and why would I have a grudge against PB? before this KS I didn't even know PB was still around and when they were around I loved their Robotech RPG system, so any ire garnered against them has been because of this KS.

And I always love it when people say I know something, but can't tell you, then why bother telling us that you know something?, you claim PB is a business and is trying to do good by the backers, then 1st. off why would they lie to the backers? why would they make promise after promise to the backers then turn around and willingly break that promise to the backers? those are not the actions of an honest business or a company trying to do good by the backers, it is nothing but dishonesty and deceipt by PB and has caused much ire and malcontent with the backers.

Furthermore PB's silence will only anger more backers, since the current wave of discontent is "what about wave 2?"

and has been shown by other posters here and there, PB's actions are now dragging your name into the mud. and you continue to make excuses for them, they do not even bother, because they cannot make excuses for lies and breaking their word.

it is said if a persons word is no good, they are no good, PB has proven their word is no good, so they are no good, no amount of excuses or such can excuse the fact they maliciously lied to the backers and broke their promises.

(And I believe they did it while smiling and laughing, but that's just my belief)

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

We can't really say until Wave Two, but I don't think so.

I did a comparison between MSRP, Retail and what we effectively paid (proportionally) in the Battle Cry tier, and it gets pretty low. Even just based on rough estimates for how much the Limited Edition figures might be worth (either purchased at conventions or on the secondary market), and I'm guessing a BC ended up being maybe 1/4 of MSRP, so even at 1/2 off at CSI, we're still ahead of the game.

Even a fairly drastic 'get this gak off our shelves' 75% off would likely be closer to the KS prices than actively losing us money.

There is one caveat though; add ons. Anything bought as an add on may end up being vaguely the same price, if not cheaper on the secondary market. That MAC II I paid $40 for? Could quite possibly be that much or less at CSI, depending on whether or not they go back up to ~30-40% off in time.

 Forar wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
So would a legitimate fear be that soon what we received we would have paid more than what we could buy with the various "sales"?
I know the wave 2 items throw a proper comparison out the window but still...

We can't really say until Wave Two, but I don't think so.

I did a comparison between MSRP, Retail and what we effectively paid (proportionally) in the Battle Cry tier, and it gets pretty low. Even just based on rough estimates for how much the Limited Edition figures might be worth (either purchased at conventions or on the secondary market), and I'm guessing a BC ended up being maybe 1/4 of MSRP, so even at 1/2 off at CSI, we're still ahead of the game.

Even a fairly drastic 'get this gak off our shelves' 75% off would likely be closer to the KS prices than actively losing us money.

There is one caveat though; add ons. Anything bought as an add on may end up being vaguely the same price, if not cheaper on the secondary market. That MAC II I paid $40 for? Could quite possibly be that much or less at CSI, depending on whether or not they go back up to ~30-40% off in time.

Actually right now Forar, the individual components for the system are cheaper then they cost thru the KS, the base game thru CSI $50, the base game thru KS $80, add on packs about $20 thru KS, thru CSI $16-18. only when you get into the BC and above does the value favor the backer, but only if we see wave 2 and with the lack of any info from PB regarding wave 2, there is no guarantee of that, sine we see PB has a track record of lying to their backers.

*sigh*

Which is why I specifically noted the BC tier, AND stated that the add ons (and yes, the core box only tiers, the whole 200 of them they sold) were iffy if not worse deals.

Dude, don't go all Lola on me here. You're bett.... you can be better than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: apologies for snipping like this, but from that giant cluster of text it seemed simply to trim the key point I was going to address.

WilhelmRochRedDuke wrote:
It hasn't helped that those who want to see it fail

Calling them "those who want to see it fail" seems awfully reductive. Those who express their frustration in nonconstructive manners, perhaps, but I don't know many people who paid $140-600 (the vast majority of the backers having bought at least 1 Battle Cry) or more just to watch it fail. If that viewpoint has changed for the worse in the last year and a half, that's unfortunate, but how many actual "$1 trolls" are there? Not many, I'm guessing.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but I don't see it as 'wanting it to fail' at all, but most whom are simply disappointed/frustrated past their point of tolerating further excuses/failings (from their perspective). Be it the models, the rules, the delays, the lack of communication (previous and ongoing alike), there are plenty of subjective and objective things to critique about the handling of the project. Perhaps that anger/frustration has become a sentiment of 'burn it all down' for some, but it's not like even the harshest of critics backed with a desire to see it flop and to get nothing for their patronage.

(FAQ's and additional content, ways to improve shipping for wave 2)

Which may be the case, but it's been a while since we heard much more than 'we're totally working on it!', and having heard that for over a year with various aspects of wave one, that simply isn't going to cut it. A sword that cuts both ways; yes, I'd rather them put the time and thought into proper errata/FAQ documents rather than throw something together in a haphazard fashion, but with over a year and a half since the project went live (plus the half year we were told was put into this before the campaign), surely they have a good direction to go in/tweak towards correcting oversights and missed issues/typos/etc.

It's hard to believe there's just 'so much happening behind the scenes' when we were told that with wave one and look where that got us. Hell, at this point we're hearing even less than we did during wave one (yes, yes, busy with shipping, I know) and somehow we're supposed to believe that as much or more has been done. On faith.

And frankly, simply *starting* a FAQ/Errata and updating it regularly (once a month even) as a living document would go a lot further along than simply being expected to quietly accept that maybe one day we'll see something. Hell, even something as important as "how many times can a GU-11 be fired in Battloid mode?" has been pondered aloud on the PB forums for, what, a month and change now? Surely that's something that can be clearly answered publicly to start such a document off.

produce a tabletop game from scratch.

Given how heavily this ties to the RPG, to the point that Mike was able to reverse engineer most of it just by reading the RPG and comparing it to what we were provided in the campaign, plus help from others (Alessio, Ninja Division) it's not like they were re-inventing the wheel here.

Many different styles of games and mechanics were researched from GW, Infinity, warmachine, Maifaux, and several others..

Too bad they didn't adopt LOS from Malifaux. Yes, I'm still banging that drum.

There was even a complete rewrite early in the process.

Huh. Good to have that said aloud by someone 'in the know'. Makes some of the things we heard over the last year and a half make a lot more sense.

The problem with this KS is that it was too open and aggressive for a small company to do in the preliminary time frame. Many things that were taken as easy to do, or completed, and should not delay things have come back to delay things for weeks or with the miniatures, months, which compound the time frame of a project.. These are things that normally no one hears about or never knows about. In this KS atmosphere you the backer know that things are delayed and it is pissing everyone off..

That's something they should have recognized going into the project. If they want money up front and tell the backers that they'll be kept in the loop, they shouldn't have been surprised when backers ask to be kept in the loop.

If they'd not wanted to worry about it, they could've gotten a loan or other typical source of funding and simply released it in their own time.

And frankly, to hear other talk about PB staff discussing a potential second campaign at conventions tells me that for whatever bullgak, shenanigans and frustration dealing with 'some aspects' of the community there might have been, clearly there's a sentiment that the ends have justified the means to get there.

Not sure it is all worth getting personally upset with anyone.

Wave 1 is pretty much getting delivered and physical product is floating around so it is not "vaporware".

It looks like PB is reasonably committed to wave 2 since the little leaflet in the main box is showing what is coming.

The main risk is the PB "coming soon" being an indefinite thing like other publications of theirs.

I do not like their public relations, their lack of adhering to a schedule, on-going money problems, their pushing unexpected/hidden costs onto customers.

I am so glad there is nothing else in their intellectual property I would ever want.
It will be a relief to turn my back on them forever as a supplier since I HATE to reward bad behavior.

The cookie has crumbled: they have failed in making a tabletop miniature game that is accessible to the general public, they were so close.
At least with what was received I can have some games with those willing to learn a fairly straightforward game.
I just have to provide the miniatures.

<edit> And my Battletech friends are happy to have some old standard mechs back!

Ok so I've got the cards what I think is pretty much done. I've already started my own printing and laminating process and just finished the UEDF. If you are interested see the link on the Signature.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Ok so I've got the cards what I think is pretty much done. I've already started my own printing and laminating process and just finished the UEDF. If you are interested see the link on the Signature.

Pretty much done or 98% final? If it is the latter, we'll be waiting till Xmas 2015 given the Robotech precedent set.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

I am so glad there is nothing else in their intellectual property I would ever want.
It will be a relief to turn my back on them forever as a supplier since I HATE to reward bad behavior.

That is where I'm at as well. I walked away from Palladium rpgs a decade ago because I simply outgrew them like a cheap greasy corner burger joint you enjoyed as a kid only because you couldn't afford/didn't know any better. I didn't hate them despite knowing their shady history and being lied to at gencon regarding their upcoming rpg releases for a decade...I simply pitied them and was sad the source material I liked so much didn't get the game and creative design support it deserved. After the past year, I actively dislike the company and will share my negative experiences with anyone thinking about becoming their customer. I'm sure some will see that as "haters gonna hate" but I see it as "gamers lookin out for gamers" instead since Palladium has put us dead last on their list of priorities (right after migrating fowl).

I'd just like to get the stuff I paid for and warn everyone I can to stay clear of PB.
If they get in financial trouble (hopefully after wave2 is complete ) - like the time of the Betrayal(tm), then I just hope the company dies, so no other unwitting gamers get sucked in due to nostalgia.

I was a fan of PB (despite all their bs) before this kickstarter. It's a shame I'm not now.

To be pedantic, it was The Crisis Of Treachery.

Unless there was also A Betrayal I'm not aware of?

I hereby nominate the Time of BetrayalTM to be the period of time starting 48 hours post kickstarter completion until 98% fulfillment!

Ah yes, indeed it was the crisis of treachery(tm)! So we are in the time of betrayal(tm) right now? Sounds about right! It could be the End times but GW have already nabbed it.

To be entirely honest I did vote yes to gencon, under the false assumption that I'd have product in hand a few weeks later (so naive). Well I've learnt the hard way.

Ah, the rest is all for giggles now.
With what we have received, if I feel a bit antsy about Wave 2 I pull out a sprue and put a model together.
Suddenly I am in much less of a hurry.
Almost got enough assembly for some 150-odd point demo game, just got to put my Drop Zone Commander city together (what was I doing while waiting for Wave 1??).
I really should buy the damaged city version as well, fighting in a pristine cityscape seems so Walt Disney.
It is all coming together for a reasonable game to play despite PB's worst efforts!
Funny how I got so upset from all the White Knight comments of "Be happy you get something Robotech at all!"
I got stuff, I am happy.
I just am trying to figure out how to give payback to PB making it more of a rollercoaster ride than it needed to be... silly goats they are.

The latest update from PB is a joke. So they shot the &$!@ on Skype for a few hours. How about pictures.

The whole "haters gonna hate" excuse is just a bunch of BS. PB is responsible for pissing off many a backer. I keep seeing new names on the ks objecting to what PB is doing. Some are long time fans who are disgusted with Kevin and his excuses. It's a weak defense that only sycophants believe because they can't see past their rainbow tinted glasses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an explanation why we have so many bisected parts and why ND had to redo their files.


"@Khyron... As John and the other employees at Ninja Division have said on their forums and Facebook. Ninja Division was only hired on for the intial rules set up and miniature "model" design. After they submitted these to PB, PB did what ever they wanted with it. They have no knowledge or say so on the decisions PB made after that.
Example: Current rules are thanks to Carmen of PB and the decision to split the models in half were PB's. And lastly, choosing to use a different Chinese factory than the one Ninja Division uses was all PB's choice as well. Ninja Division pretty much did what they were paid to do then PB decided to go their own direction with it. Using Ninja Division to do all the leg work, then turned it around to make it into their own Frankenstien abomination RPG version of it.
Because the game is nothing like they intionally submitted they don't want to even support it with their line of products. Hence why there is no support , mention, forum or ninja volunteer program for the game through ND. And why it is now up to PB's Megaverse (TM) ambasador program to promote the game. Because, Ninja Divisions name is still attached to the games' models they still post pics of ONLY the models. I have not seen a single pic of the whole game other than the models on Ninja Divisions websites.
Because, they have no say so on what PB decided to do with the models after they were submitted they have no idea on the status of wave 2 either. Best bet is to keep houding the PB forums about a status update on wave 2 and hope that NMI doesn't lock it immediatly after."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah haters gonna hate. It's not like Kevin informed us about the bait an switch. It's not like he intentionally lied to us.

(Sarcasm)

Who is that from? Is it actually from ND or just someone filling in the blanks? I do recall ND saying all the files needed to be redone but not the explanation of exactly why.

Whelp, I finally started assembly.

Did 3 pods up in about an hour. As an amateur, they're not too awful, but doing another 21-24 of them isn't exactly filling me with glee.

Fighter went together pretty well.

Have started a Guardian. I already loathe not only the person that designed this figure but humanity itself. By the time it's done and I even look at the Battloid sprue I will not be held accountable for my actions or the body count that may be associated with them.

Edit: that quote comes from the KS comments, someone named "Jay D."

Come on guys Kevin doesn't always lie, it's just when his lips are moving




...and when he proofreads his weekly updates aloud.

 warboss wrote:
Who is that from? Is it actually from ND or just someone filling in the blanks? I do recall ND saying all the files needed to be redone but not the explanation of exactly why.

It's from a play tester for ND. RRT has been discussed on the ND FB page and their own forums. That's were this info came from. Like Forar said it's from a backer named Jay D.


Forar
I get your frustration. The first model I built was the battloid. Oh how hated the moron that approved it and designed it. Same with the gerwalk model. After building a few of them I've gotten better, but those arms in both modes are a pain.

Actually had quite a crowd of of the local players and customers walking in our FLGS (Avalon) checking out the a friend and me going at it. He played the Zent's and I the RDF

Tom
1 Attrition squad of Battle pods (12)
2 squads of Missile pods (total of four)
Battle Pod recovery Pod
ECM Battle Pod
Zent Leader pod w/Khyron

My self
1 Flight of four Valks
1 Air Group Commander
1 Squad of four Tomahawks

Yes It short change myself but is was a exploratory fight with rules.

Needless to say. It was fast, cut throat, and insane. What was acking us up was we kept mixing it up with 40K rules espacially in the shooting portion. Rolled to hit and then we rolled to wound and then we.....wait.....rolled to hit and if hit do you spend one command point to dodge or roll with it lol

Though one thing that did stand out was separating individual mecha in squad. House roll we go with numbering them on the mini to the unit card. Over kill does not transfer to other mecha unless there is a mecha inline of lane of fire behind the original target

So I backed the game at the Showdown level with an extra Tomahawk/Defender kit. I've only opened one of the two core boxes at this point. I'm starting to wonder if I even need to open the other core.

But I've begun building. I've built all the Zentradi mecha except for my last two Artillery pods. I built the core group plus took a couple of Regalts and turned them into Telenstas. Now I'm like, Hum, which should these be? I considered magnets but I just didn't want to spend the time on that step.

They got to be really easy to do, even with fiddly little bits after a while. I haven't even started painting yet. I figure I'll bore the feet for rods and do a spray primer and then go at them from there.

As for the UEDF stuff, I'm terrified because of all the reports I've seen about those specific models. Are they really that bad to construct or is it just a matter of dry fitting the arm parts and such and being observant of the fiddly little bits?

Jihadin, a friend and me going at it means something different here in oz. I'm guessing.

 Jihadin wrote:

Needless to say. It was fast, cut throat, and insane. What was acking us up was we kept mixing it up with 40K rules espacially in the shooting portion. Rolled to hit and then we rolled to wound and then we.....wait.....rolled to hit and if hit do you spend one command point to dodge or roll with it lol

For my friend and I on our first games some old heavy gear rules were trying to sneak into what we were doing.

Joyboozer wrote:
Jihadin, a friend and me going at it means something different here in oz. I'm guessing.

Probably likely to draw a bigger crowd, too.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Jihadin, a friend and me going at it means something different here in oz. I'm guessing.

Probably likely to draw a bigger crowd, too.

We charge ten dollars a minute

Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

 Forar wrote:
Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

Little tad bit of green stuff to help "pose" the arms. Dump a glob of adhesive where needed

The battleoid and guardian double arm poses are a pain to get into place. I found that putting a pin into each wrist (after assembling the arm subassembly) helped out quite a bit.

 Jihadin wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

Little tad bit of green stuff to help "pose" the arms. Dump a glob of adhesive where needed

Gross, now everything I read of yours seems like it's full of sexual innuendo...

Joyboozer wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 Forar wrote:
Must be one hell of a show.

Back on topic; feth the Battloid's arms. Seriously. Trying to line up and glue 5 pieces (7 including the forearms in halves) is a giant pain in the ass. Even with the gun and two forearms set up, getting the upper arms and that trio lined up at the same time is less than thrilling.

Think I'll finish these two and then go back to battlepods and fighters. Things I don't mind (as much) assembling.

Little tad bit of green stuff to help "pose" the arms. Dump a glob of adhesive where needed

Gross, now everything I read of yours seems like it's full of sexual innuendo...

You mean you didn't read it like that before?

Other model build "issues" / comments:

- Veritech battleoid mode: the legs! = two poses, I cut-up the 90 degree bent leg and made it into a 15 degree to look like taking a step and still have the "toe" touch the base to glue down. Going to be a chore to try to make these guys look different other than paint and heads. Considering cutting front and back of feet and trimming / green-stuff to get walking or slightly stepped forward poses. Trying to figure-out how to hack and slash the arms into an upper aiming position (looking down iron sights style). I will probably try this only once, I anticipate this not going well.

- Veritech jet mode: Swing-wing in the back position went better than I thought: Just follow the little cut-out at the back of the wing to the front corner to cut. Looks stylish. I would not suggest doing that for Guardian mode if you have missiles to attach: it may not fit past the shoulders.

- I found that I could not be bothered to magnetize the missile Zen. pods either, I will build to the artillery group card and can split them off to add-on units as needed: should be flexible enough. It would be easy to do however.

- I am having some issues matching feet to legs and then with other legs to the Zen. pods. I have had some interesting poses, but at least they do not all look the same.

- I may have to bite the bullet and glue on a "Command" module to a Tomahawk since a magnet is not looking good, I could put in a pin but that is such a tiny bit it makes no sense. Think I will buy a couple destroid kits: at $15 I really cannot go all that wrong. Want a couple extra for "named" character models.

- REALLY wondering if I should bother waiting for Wave 2 with the "special character" veritechs, it seems rather pointless since every type is modeled and it really is just up to our customization skills.

- With little for visual guide: putting on the missiles last appears to be the way to go. Alignment and spacing was interesting. I think I will set aside two veritechs to be my designated "bombers" for the dropped bombs. It will fit-in with the card add-ons and could be good for some scenarios (gives a chance to make them different). I appreciate how some are mixing load-out just to be stylish but my mentally damaged need for WYSIWYG is preventing me.

- Anyone look at those Glaug arms? I am undecided on drilling through and using wire or beef-up what is there with green-stuff or gluing on some polystyrene in key joint areas. Those are way too thin and too much mechanical advantage to NOT snap off (plus looks really silly for a big-bad command pod). Mind-you I appreciate the strength of this plastic, it is rather impressive.

- Think I will fully laminate over the cards, I had taken one of each type to a hobby shop looking for sleeves (Fantasy Flight Type) and have some issues for supply of the really big cards that are used for Pokémon / Magic. I figure my really old Federation Commander laminated ship cards have survived as-is, these should do fine.

- Flight stands: Really not sure I like the ones provided. Any good alternative clear stands we can get? The Veritech jet is a bit scary since it mounts to the gun pod. I know the "right" way to do things is assemble, paint, then mount to the base but I figure I may only get to prime white and need to play. I may curse this decision later when I go to paint underneath.

Anyway, some thoughts, musings, rants I figured to throw out there. Maybe make a new thread: "Robotech RPG Tactics model assembly support group.".

Was watching the Robotech series again to remind myself on how many of these units looked.
I had no idea how much destroids died like dogs (at least early in the show).
Representative of the show they should have a defense of 1 and cost half of a Zen. pod.
Plus Breetai still gets the award for the most kick-butt bad-guy out there: calm, smart, can tear a veritech apart with his bare hands and spend extended time in hard vacuum without a suit.
<edit> Plus have previously mentioned veritech explode in his face to no apparent effect other than knocking him over stunning him.