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games already dead.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Actually, unless you've personally seen the contract that spelled this out, it is an assumption. As was the thing that was quoted about what the ND playtesters said.

Because else, you're asking people to take as fact, something that was told to you. Your belief in the veracity of what you were told is irrelevant. I don't doubt you believe you were told this, and I don't doubt what you were told. But having not heard it from the source myself, it's an assumption that it's fact. And if it's from the usual suspects (Kevin, Jeff or Wayne), based on prior performance, I'd need confirmation from an independent source before I believed anything they said. Their propensity for not being completely honest, is easily verified.

Like I said, I take the claims from the two claiming to be ND playtesters (one here, one on the KS) with similar doubts as it's not coming from the source, but again, anything spoken by KevCo is taken by me with a little more skepticism because of past false and/or misleading statements.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's good information to have. Every little bit helps inform the bigger picture. But don't kid yourself that it's fact. Unless I assumed wrong, and you have seen the contract, the specific wording that stated the licensing limitation, and saw evidence that it was properly signed by both parties. Then I retract almost all of the above.

I hope this game isn't dead, but if it dies at least I have my son to play with. For me that was the whole point. So not a big lose to me. Besides he's never seen robotech only the original macross story and other macross shows. So he hasn't been contaminated by the BS from HG that is RT. This game dying isn't a big deal. Although I have a feeling that it'll be the fans that keep this alive above anything PB does, only because RT/macross fans will stay in touch thanks to FB and other net forums were we can congregate. Kinda how PB RPG fans keep PB afloat despite Kevin the bungler.

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

and yet it was ND that said they were only hired to design the initial minis and the initial rules, which indicates they had nothing to do with the current rules, all we have that they did is your word, and as you like pointing out how you want proof from others, I want to see your proof, all you have given us is talk, yet no evidence and yet the evidence of what I said what ND said is visible on their facebook page. where is your proof, or is it something big Kev told you, and we know how he doesn't lie.

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

What I believe/think....
5. ND had rules and made changes even post KS. Changes were small for the most part. (KS rules vs actual support this)
6. PB had little idea of mini games and could not be trusted to manage the rules even IF they did have control.
7. ND from what I understand had their wrists slapped for even releasing that much during the KS by HG and were scared to even allow PB any control of the rules.
8. Any additional changes had to wait till the end when ND had to pass PB the goods so that they could go through final approval and then to print.
9. Because of the short timeline some things were not fixed but need to be clarified as time goes by. Errata is needed.

A minor clarification.

Tom had his own set of rules, I had my own set of rules which were very different from Tom's stuff and I also had actual miniatures. Both of us were working on respective projects independently aproximately at the same time. Tom wanted to do his stuff in 1/100 scale at the time, and wanted to combine efforts as he thought it'd be better to present the project as a single effort. Which is not something I really agreed to, nor wanted. IMO he really tried to blur the lines between what we were working on and re-posted a lot of my pictures and items from my facebook page on his own site without my permission.

Whenever I spoke with Palladium it was strictly about the miniatures angle, while I was working with a set of house rules for my personal use my primary interest was always the miniatures as I had no expectations that they would want to use any system submitted to them. I was also pretty annoyed that Tom kept insisting that we were working together, we both wanted to see a game made however we had very different ideas as to the approach. He wanted large scale 1/100 stuff as did PB (at the time) and I had to argue very hard to get them to listen to the logic behind producing it in 1/285th scale. I'd been dead set on that scale since the beginning as I knew that for production purposes it was the only serious option.

I felt Tom was purposefully trying to blur the line between our two separate efforts and I asked him to remove my pictures from his fan website. I was fine with him pursuing a robotech game under his own efforts but I did a lot of work and put down money to try and get the prototypes done and it felt like he was trying to ride my coat tails considering he didn't pitch in on those at all. Over the years there's been lots of people who have pitched game ideas to HG. I certainly wasn't the first to suggest a game, however what I did that was unique was to bring them actual professional looking models to illustrate what was possible which is an entirely different approach that nobody else had tried. With those prototypes and the Facebook page I organized I got a tangible groundswell going that was far different than previous fan efforts.

As much as I respect Tom's interest and passion towards getting Robotech made I did not consider him a partner and he was constantly trying to wedge himself into the discussion process when there was no grounds to. He had no part in creating my prototype models or the FB page, nor did he have any hand in how I was promoting things. He had his own page which as far as I can tell was followed by a half dozen people where there was nearly 2,000 people active on the FB page I'd set up for the miniatures. His efforts had no impact on what I was doing and in some ways were being very counter productive.



As for what happened after Palladium rejected my request to work with them I don't know for sure, but reading the initial KS promotions I was under the impressions that Alessio Cavatore was brought on by Ninja Division to do the rules. Assuming the purpose of bringing on a "big name" former GW writer was to create some hype about the game during the kickstarter stage. I'm not sure who is listed in the final writers credits, but if it's Carmen then I'd assume he either modified/revised Alessio's work, or they tossed out the earlier work and PB went with whatever Carmen came up with. I only saw what they were advertising at the launch of the KS and I don't have the game or rulesbook so I really have no clue who wrote what in regard to the final version.

Saying the game is dead is a pretty big assumption and not one I'm willing to take (despite the local interest by me being nil). The reality is that we can't really judge the popularity until at least 6 months pass (along with another Gencon) and in all likelihood wave 2 arrives probably this time next year.

 warboss wrote:
Saying the game is dead is a pretty big assumption and not one I'm willing to take (despite the local interest by me being nil). The reality is that we can't really judge the popularity until at least 6 months pass (along with another Gencon) and in all likelihood wave 2 arrives probably this time next year.

Agreed. At least six months at retail, if anything gets released before Wave 2 (Oh noes, Kevin would never do that! He promised!), you can probably add another six months. But that also doesn't mean there aren't markers.

The CSI discount isn't proof. Hell, it's barely an assumption (as to why it's heavily discounted). There are many pro and con reasons why they're doing it. Maybe they got a great sweetheart deal from PB and are making decent profit even at that steep a discount. Maybe they're trying to gin up interest with "introductory rates". Or maybe they overstocked/overordered, and are trying to get the surplus down quickly. Or maybe they're done. All we do know is that the CSI prices deflate the secondary market, as a certain purple Zergling will point out.

Probably a significant marker (but again, not definitive proof) will be the number of entrants into official games at GenCon. Another will be if the GenCon marketers are heavily discounting it.

The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Palladium-ism. They have been doing a lot to bungle things bad luck, inexperience, delays, even if it's not intentional mishandling it has been creating a lot of burned bridges with people that if things were done right would have stayed on as loyal customers. In addition to a lost revenue source it turns into a pool of toxicity which will bad mouth the game to potential new players amplifying the reach.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Actually, unless you've personally seen the contract that spelled this out, it is an assumption. As was the thing that was quoted about what the ND playtesters said.

Because else, you're asking people to take as fact, something that was told to you. Your belief in the veracity of what you were told is irrelevant. I don't doubt you believe you were told this, and I don't doubt what you were told. But having not heard it from the source myself, it's an assumption that it's fact. And if it's from the usual suspects (Kevin, Jeff or Wayne), based on prior performance, I'd need confirmation from an independent source before I believed anything they said. Their propensity for not being completely honest, is easily verified.

Like I said, I take the claims from the two claiming to be ND playtesters (one here, one on the KS) with similar doubts as it's not coming from the source, but again, anything spoken by KevCo is taken by me with a little more skepticism because of past false and/or misleading statements.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's good information to have. Every little bit helps inform the bigger picture. But don't kid yourself that it's fact. Unless I assumed wrong, and you have seen the contract, the specific wording that stated the licensing limitation, and saw evidence that it was properly signed by both parties. Then I retract almost all of the above.

I can understand and even appreciate why people would be skeptical. I would also hold the same skepticism with this post by about the rules changing and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

and yet it was ND that said they were only hired to design the initial minis and the initial rules, which indicates they had nothing to do with the current rules, all we have that they did is your word, and as you like pointing out how you want proof from others, I want to see your proof, all you have given us is talk, yet no evidence and yet the evidence of what I said what ND said is visible on their facebook page. where is your proof, or is it something big Kev told you, and we know how he doesn't lie.

As usual you pull out the BS. Playtesting and having something in hand that you can change are not the same thing and you well know it. Also the KS alpha release rules when compared to the final is ample evidence that any PB changes made were no drastic UNLESS you assume ND's Alpha Release was done under duress and was not even close to their rules. We know that is simply not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Palladium-ism. They have been doing a lot to bungle things bad luck, inexperience, delays, even if it's not intentional mishandling it has been creating a lot of burned bridges with people that if things were done right would have stayed on as loyal customers. In addition to a lost revenue source it turns into a pool of toxicity which will bad mouth the game to potential new players amplifying the reach.

^^ This. PB's biggest challenge it in essence....itself. They need to learn to get behind the ball.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
What we DO know.
1. Tom wrote original rules and with Jon approached PB.
2. PB liked idea but due to licensing limitations had to make rules more in line with RPG.
3. ND and/or Carmen worked on re-writing rules.
4. Initial Rules shown during KS are very close to actual.

I underlined an assumption. I've seen people talk about this for a long time (pre-KS) but it's all just been rumor.
(that any miniature release must be an extension of the RPG rules, as you've asserted)

Having actually worked and spoken with PB, it is not an assumption.

Actually, unless you've personally seen the contract that spelled this out, it is an assumption. As was the thing that was quoted about what the ND playtesters said.

Because else, you're asking people to take as fact, something that was told to you. Your belief in the veracity of what you were told is irrelevant. I don't doubt you believe you were told this, and I don't doubt what you were told. But having not heard it from the source myself, it's an assumption that it's fact. And if it's from the usual suspects (Kevin, Jeff or Wayne), based on prior performance, I'd need confirmation from an independent source before I believed anything they said. Their propensity for not being completely honest, is easily verified.

Like I said, I take the claims from the two claiming to be ND playtesters (one here, one on the KS) with similar doubts as it's not coming from the source, but again, anything spoken by KevCo is taken by me with a little more skepticism because of past false and/or misleading statements.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, it's good information to have. Every little bit helps inform the bigger picture. But don't kid yourself that it's fact. Unless I assumed wrong, and you have seen the contract, the specific wording that stated the licensing limitation, and saw evidence that it was properly signed by both parties. Then I retract almost all of the above.

I can understand and even appreciate why people would be skeptical. I would also hold the same skepticism with this post by about the rules changing and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - calling this a "short timeline" is beyond a reasonable stretch.

You even pointed out (iirc) issues that you saw early in your playtesting that weren't corrected, right?

Again, the time from when PB actually had the actual files from ND and to when things went to print WAS indeed short. Many of the changes I had given them that were obvious were delayed for this same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Miniature games need constant support and releases. Can't see that happening with PB.

That's my biggest concern....PB treating this like a RPG will kill the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Yes, the rules as written by Soda Pop/Ninja Division were rewritten after they were delivered under contract to Palladium. They were significantly changed from what they are now. This was to bring the game more in line with the Palladium RPG system then a table top game.

I believe that we may see a Southern Cross release, but nothing else. Palladium Games has pretty much killed the game before it even came out. There was too much crap that went on behind the scenes that I am not at liberty to talk about. Palladium and Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division have separated company and chosen not to renew the Robotech contract. Soda Pop/Ninja Division have taken the sculptors, modelers, rules developers, and production with them. In order for Palladium to produce Southern Cross, they will have to either hire all those positions, source them out, or renegotiate a new contract with Ninja Division (it'll be a cold day in Hell when that happens).

Enjoy what we have now, 'cuz we ain't gonna get anything else.

Coming from what knowledge? ND released stuff during the KS and the actual rules are close so I'd be really interested in where this idea comes from.....

and yet it was ND that said they were only hired to design the initial minis and the initial rules, which indicates they had nothing to do with the current rules, all we have that they did is your word, and as you like pointing out how you want proof from others, I want to see your proof, all you have given us is talk, yet no evidence and yet the evidence of what I said what ND said is visible on their facebook page. where is your proof, or is it something big Kev told you, and we know how he doesn't lie.

As usual you pull out the BS. Playtesting and having something in hand that you can change are not the same thing and you well know it. Also the KS alpha release rules when compared to the final is ample evidence that any PB changes made were no drastic UNLESS you assume ND's Alpha Release was done under duress and was not even close to their rules. We know that is simply not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Palladium-ism. They have been doing a lot to bungle things bad luck, inexperience, delays, even if it's not intentional mishandling it has been creating a lot of burned bridges with people that if things were done right would have stayed on as loyal customers. In addition to a lost revenue source it turns into a pool of toxicity which will bad mouth the game to potential new players amplifying the reach.

^^ This. PB's biggest challenge it in essence....itself. They need to learn to get behind the ball.

And you Assume that the KS alpha rules release were ND's design ? my statement is that ND claimed they were responsible for the initial rules design, not saying when those rules were done or if they were even play tested, that is your assumption, not mine.

as it goes in my mind this game is already dead, and the only one to blame is PB, you can keep hoping the game grows, but it will not, its already gasping for breath, hell its several months since people have gotten the game and the bulk of people are still assembling the game if they are even bothering assembling it at all.

this is what went wrong and destroyed this game:

1: Game Mechanics is more problematic for the average gamer, the average gamer does not want to spend weeks or so, on a new game just to play it. they want a game they can pretty much take out of the box and play, look at all the games that are doing good, and you will see either their starter games or their games overall are not time consuming like this game is.

2: PB has garnered more ill will towards this game then any positive reinforcement, due to PB's lies and general untrustworthy actions, more and more people are not supporting this game, and are downright now going out of their way to speak ill of the game and company.

3: PB has not supported this game to date, nor do they even plan to support it, PB is running this game like an RPG game and that there will kill it, RPG games are not miniature games, they are 2 different beasts and if you treat a miniature game like an RPG game you will kill it.

4: Kevin is in charge "Nuff Said"

Asterios wrote:


And you Assume that the KS alpha rules release were ND's design ? my statement is that ND claimed they were responsible for the initial rules design, not saying when those rules were done or if they were even play tested, that is your assumption, not mine.

as it goes in my mind this game is already dead, and the only one to blame is PB, you can keep hoping the game grows, but it will not, its already gasping for breath, hell its several months since people have gotten the game and the bulk of people are still assembling the game if they are even bothering assembling it at all.

this is what went wrong and destroyed this game:

1: Game Mechanics is more problematic for the average gamer, the average gamer does not want to spend weeks or so, on a new game just to play it. they want a game they can pretty much take out of the box and play, look at all the games that are doing good, and you will see either their starter games or their games overall are not time consuming like this game is.

2: PB has garnered more ill will towards this game then any positive reinforcement, due to PB's lies and general untrustworthy actions, more and more people are not supporting this game, and are downright now going out of their way to speak ill of the game and company.

3: PB has not supported this game to date, nor do they even plan to support it, PB is running this game like an RPG game and that there will kill it, RPG games are not miniature games, they are 2 different beasts and if you treat a miniature game like an RPG game you will kill it.

4: Kevin is in charge "Nuff Said"

So let's follow your logic here. The rules released during the KS were already not ND's and they were forced to release them?
1. ND was happy and still very supportive of the game at that time and for a while after.
2. I have from ND that they got into a bit from HG for releasing that much.

#1 Game mechanics difficult? I think you forgot to read the rulebook.

#2 Partially agree, through KS's poor way of handling things and the team's general lack of experience.

#3 An assumption on your part. You like to point out assumptions right? We do know they are working on an errata. Way too slowly for my taste.

#4 See #2

Either I cannot see it or maybe I am not comprehending it. Rules for the table top blow crap up are at the beginning of the rule books and the conversion to RPG is in back of the book Separate from each other. So what's the connection I am missing?

 Mike1975 wrote:
We do know they are working on an errata. Way too slowly for my taste.

To touch on this directly, you've said that FAQ/Errata suggestions were made, what, months ago? An entire quarter? Half a year? Longer?

How long can we just take at face value that it's 'totally coming' in a way other than how NG1/2 were 'totally coming' for years?

And a bunch of the questions compiling aren't even super complicated. Can a Battloid fire a GU-11 up to 3 times in a turn? That's a yes or no answer (though a little extra context would be nice). Are 'named' characters Unique?' Again, yes or no. Start with easy things, and expand to apply to more complicated issues, and attend to things that might've been overlooked during development.

I think they need to make a page (not a forum post, an actual page) on their site and stick the answers to such things there.

It's not rocket surgery. Put up the page, start with some easy/obvious ones, update every so often (weekly to start, monthly as things settle into equilibrium), game = supported. (if in a very basic fashion)

Sure, there'll be questions that remain outstanding longer than some would like, or answers that either aren't 'fluffy' enough or don't reflect the 'crunch' as some players might prefer, but that's creating a miniatures game. And frankly they need to get comfortable with this, because right now there are only half a dozen or so figures per side of the main factions (plus the oft overlooked Malcontents). I think we can all agree that dumping the entirety of wave two onto the backers (yes, yes, I'm a starry eyed dreamer who is tongue-in-cheek claiming that we might actually have that happen) is going to add an order of magnitude more complexity to the game, and thus require even more support.

Yes, they're a "small business", but they undertook this project, and need to follow up and support it properly if they want it to thrive. The playerbase isn't going to accept "omg we're soooo busy" for months on end, eventually they either need to expand to meet those needs, or further damage is going to be done.

Note: I'm not expecting you personally to have answers; this is mostly rhetorical, noting that they really need to get their gak together, and can't just leave it on its own.

18 Models assembled. 2ea destroids and 3ea VFs bonus Battloid and some pods.Looking to finnish the first core box (of 4) of UEDF forces and get to painting.

Played 2 intro games. Lot's of fun! Really easy to pick up for the most part. Sorting out Leap plus close formation and all that is harder on the Zent player the Earth Forces.

The errata/FAQ is desperately needed. which is really too bad.

Interesting behind the scenes stuff. 1/100 wow. That's way too big to do more than 2 or 3 mechs a side.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Asterios wrote:


And you Assume that the KS alpha rules release were ND's design ? my statement is that ND claimed they were responsible for the initial rules design, not saying when those rules were done or if they were even play tested, that is your assumption, not mine.

as it goes in my mind this game is already dead, and the only one to blame is PB, you can keep hoping the game grows, but it will not, its already gasping for breath, hell its several months since people have gotten the game and the bulk of people are still assembling the game if they are even bothering assembling it at all.

this is what went wrong and destroyed this game:

1: Game Mechanics is more problematic for the average gamer, the average gamer does not want to spend weeks or so, on a new game just to play it. they want a game they can pretty much take out of the box and play, look at all the games that are doing good, and you will see either their starter games or their games overall are not time consuming like this game is.

2: PB has garnered more ill will towards this game then any positive reinforcement, due to PB's lies and general untrustworthy actions, more and more people are not supporting this game, and are downright now going out of their way to speak ill of the game and company.

3: PB has not supported this game to date, nor do they even plan to support it, PB is running this game like an RPG game and that there will kill it, RPG games are not miniature games, they are 2 different beasts and if you treat a miniature game like an RPG game you will kill it.

4: Kevin is in charge "Nuff Said"

So let's follow your logic here. The rules released during the KS were already not ND's and they were forced to release them?
1. ND was happy and still very supportive of the game at that time and for a while after.
2. I have from ND that they got into a bit from HG for releasing that much.

#1 Game mechanics difficult? I think you forgot to read the rulebook.

#2 Partially agree, through KS's poor way of handling things and the team's general lack of experience.

#3 An assumption on your part. You like to point out assumptions right? We do know they are working on an errata. Way too slowly for my taste.

#4 See #2

1: when I said mechanics I meant the whole process of actually building the game to play, gonna be awhile before a player needs to worry about the rules.

3: a pretty good assumption when I got not one MA but 2 or more who have stated they will play the game as an RPG and not a miniatures game, and i'm not talking about them not playing it in the miniatures gaming area but playing the actual RPG game using the miniatures.

furthermore PB says a lot, doesn't mean they are going to do it, so as far as errata goes wouldn't hold your breath on that.

Asterios wrote:
[
furthermore PB says a lot, doesn't mean they are going to do it, so as far as errata goes wouldn't hold your breath on that.

If minutes of holding your breath translated to months of waiting for the errata since the first copy was mailed out, most people reading this thread would have died already. I don't doubt they're working on it but they're likely working on it at best as efficiently as they were for the Northern Gun 1 & 2 crowdfunded RPG books that came out 1 year and 2 years late respectively. There is no immediate direct profit in the errata so it likely is prioritized just below cleaning the bathroom in the warehouse after Texas Chili Tuesdays. Mike submitted questions many months ago (summer or earlier?) and they still haven't managed to officially and openly answer a single question via a freely available online document. I prefer that method to asking mike on dakka who emailed it to kevin after I posted it on the megaversal forums before NMI locked my thread with a warning which got Red Duke to post a half answer on the Kickstarter comments that I never noticed.

Yeah. Well just hoping things pick up after the holidays. I'm still believing in robust support from PB in the new year. Surely it's easier to put up a FAQ than ship to ROW!

That's just hurtful Lurker

I'd appreciate if people would stop re-posting my comments on the KS. I'll gladly back up anything I've said but because I did not back the project I cannot comment on there and I'd prefer to leave my comments on an open forum where I can participate. Thanks.

 Desert Lurker wrote:
Yeah. Well just hoping things pick up after the holidays. I'm still believing in robust support from PB in the new year. Surely it's easier to put up a FAQ than ship to ROW!

For some reason everything is hard for PB. It took a long time like years for an FAQ or guide on their RPG rules.

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Actually, 3 - there is malcontents.

But X-Wing has done fine with only two factions. X-Wing is only now adding a 3rd ("Scum").

Hell, Battletech only had one faction - even though it had the five successor states, no one in our group and the wargaming club I went to bothered with declaring their mechs were for any faction - until the Clans came along. You could field ANY mech in any "faction" there weren't any rules to say this or that mech belonged to any one group, nor were there any game rules for faction abilities.

So I've started skimming the rules. Am I reading this right? A standard VF-1A in Guardian mode can move 40 inches in a single turn and then fire all it's weapons? If that's the case, then that's pretty insane. I mean, that's pretty much a whole table width! Coming from Warmachine, I just don't get that.

What's more, if I'm right, in Fighter mode it can "only" move 36 inches, and only in a straight line? So it's faster in Guardian mode than in Fighter mode as well as being more manoeuvrable? And fire more weapons to boot? That makes even less sense to me.

 Stormonu wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Actually, 3 - there is malcontents.

But X-Wing has done fine with only two factions. X-Wing is only now adding a 3rd ("Scum").

Hell, Battletech only had one faction - even though it had the five successor states, no one in our group and the wargaming club I went to bothered with declaring their mechs were for any faction - until the Clans came along. You could field ANY mech in any "faction" there weren't any rules to say this or that mech belonged to any one group, nor were there any game rules for faction abilities.

X-Wing is not a mass miniatures game, it is like wings of glory meant to be a handful of models at most usually.

Battletech had only one faction ? guess you don't count the "Houses" Mercs or Comstar forces? then we got the "Clans" so saying battletech only has 1 faction is just wrong. and unlike Battletech which gets upgraded and such, doubt we are going to see anything new from Palladium on Robotech, i'm still hoping wave 2 comes out so I don't lose any money.

Also you cannot field any type of Malcontent force till wave 2 is released.

Asterios wrote:

Also you cannot field any type of Malcontent force till wave 2 is released.

Uh... what? I can field 4 different Malcontent squadrons right out of wave one.

Christmas Gift

 Stormonu wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
The two biggest hurdles that the game will need to overcome in order to survive:

Only two factions to chose from. This greatly restricts the choices and game strategies for players compared to systems with 5-6 factions.

Actually, 3 - there is malcontents.

But X-Wing has done fine with only two factions. X-Wing is only now adding a 3rd ("Scum").

Hell, Battletech only had one faction - even though it had the five successor states, no one in our group and the wargaming club I went to bothered with declaring their mechs were for any faction - until the Clans came along. You could field ANY mech in any "faction" there weren't any rules to say this or that mech belonged to any one group, nor were there any game rules for faction abilities.

Initially Battletech had one technology base, but multiple factions. 20 years ago they added multiple tech bases and increased the factions significantly. Also as much as I like battletech it's not all that hot of a game to hold up as an example of an industry leader.

A two player game with faction based strategies does tend to get stale quickly, for example I love spacehulk but the terminators only ever play like terminators and shoot everything while the genestealers attempt to overwhelm with bodies and horde tactics. If you've played it once it's not really any different on the 100th time.

Each story arch for Robotech is largely the same, humans vs an alien horde enemy. Given that they want to closely mirror the elements of the cartoon I'd imagine that even with adding Malcontents into the mix the Malcontents are still using Zentraedi units and Zentraedi horde tactics. So you get to fight RDF forces vs Zentraedi, or Zentraedi in a different color.


Another potential pitfall is the limitations of the Robotech license, once they've dropped their load of models for the arc there's no further expansion to be had. You can do the later arcs but Robotech has never evolved as an independent property beyond what they culled directly from the animation. Other games that are created of their own IP can create new units whole cloth and add to the setting at the whim of the owning company. Robotech has a much smaller pool to draw from and that places a limit on where they can expand to, unless they make a very significant change in how they've been handling the property. Unlike battletech, the Robotech IP really hasn't evolved or expanded in the 30+ years it's been around, Leading game companies like GW and Privateer Press are constantly adding new units/characters/things to their lines as they can create as much new material as they want.

There's certainly enough material to give the game a good run in the short term, but it won't turn into an industry giant like other IPs that are free to expand in their own setting.

So the general consensus is that the final rules are incredibly close to what Ninja Divison designed because,

a) the Kickstarter playtest rules are very close to the final rules, and
b) the "RPG" stuff added by PB is just a small section at the back of the rulebook

whereas the current conspiracy theory is that

a) PB entirely threw out all the work ND did for a game BEFORE the KS,
b) released their own playtest rules during the KS, and
c) still credited ND for the rules design in the rulebook for no particularly good reason other than to make a few people on a forum invent conspiracy theories

From what I gather, PB is a blind idiot giant fumbling around smashing into things and incapable of doing anything at all while simultaneously being an evil mustache twirling mastermind completely redesigning rulesets and weighting forums users posts to send their KS packages later than others based on an evil algorithm

Gotcha.