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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't see what EU / Oz is whining about.

PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.

PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.

So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.

In my mind I'm kicking you repeatedly in the groin as hard as possible, can you feel anything?

If a container of goods comes into the EU then the importer has to pay any and all VAT/Import Duty when it lands so there is no way for Palladium to pass that onto backers,

so the good news is you wont have anything to pay

the bad news is if Palladium is genuinely as confused about this as it seems they might just end up with an unexpected bill from their drop shipper which they don't want (can't?) pay which could lead to further delays

Albertorius, Morgan, Joyboozer. Have an exalt.

JohnHwangDD, seriously? Are you that clueless?

Now, onto my question.

Step 1) Aus pledges to be shipped.
Step 2) RoW to follow only when step 1 is complete.
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit!!!

WTF? No, really, WTF? If Step 2 is done before Step 1, will western civilization as we know it collapse? I'm probably the only schmuck from my country in on this. Why must my box sit on a shelf collecting dust waiting for the Aus pallets/container/whatever to leave on it's exotic holiday? (Ditto for all the other RoW backers.)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If a container of goods comes into the EU then the importer has to pay any and all VAT/Import Duty when it lands so there is no way for Palladium to pass that onto backers,

so the good news is you wont have anything to pay

the bad news is if Palladium is genuinely as confused about this as it seems they might just end up with an unexpected bill from their drop shipper which they don't want (can't?) pay which could lead to further delays

That's assuming that they don't add either a COD component, or require payment of a share of the original bill before their package is shipped. It's incredibly unlikely that the EU importer is going to eat the VAT cost. So either PB have to pony that up, or it'll get passed on to the end customer. And while it shouldn't, and probably won't happen, that PB have been very hesitant in this (and the Australian) situation, to say those costs won't be passed on in those two regions, there still remains a chance to be hosed, but good.

Other countries, well, they're SOL. Though PB/ND did poorly answer that in the Kickstarter FAQ.

The issue with Australia is that if the orders HAD been sent direct, there would be NO fees for a majority (if not all) backers. That they sent it in this manner, that it may accrue Customs fees, and those fees may be passed on to customers... Well... Yeah.

Sorry about the outburst. I'll rephrase, then.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't care about any of that stuff. Finish the fething KS, and give me my damn toys!

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't see what EU / Oz is whining about.

PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.

PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.

So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.

Don't you think that it is more than a bit ironic to bemoan people for whining because they don't have their stuff already, when you're doing exactly the same thing, in exactly the same thread, in exactly the same page?

 Evil_Toast wrote:
Now, onto my question.

Step 1) Aus pledges to be shipped.
Step 2) RoW to follow only when step 1 is complete.
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit!!!

WTF? No, really, WTF? If Step 2 is done before Step 1, will western civilization as we know it collapse? I'm probably the only schmuck from my country in on this. Why must my box sit on a shelf collecting dust waiting for the Aus pallets/container/whatever to leave on it's exotic holiday? (Ditto for all the other RoW backers.)

I see that. And no, it makes no sense. It doesn't even make sense in the possibility of AU/EU complaining because someone got theirs a little earlier, because unless they sit on their hands for about a month between steps 1 and 2, it'll STILL likely arrive in South Africa, Singapore, or any other RoWer before it arrives in AU (and depending on the US ports situation, possibly the EU). Air packages from the US take 7-10 days for me. Shipwise, with the logistics tacked onto the end? 6-8 weeks with "smooth sailing" (Hah! A pun!). But given the port situation? Who knows.

As soon as they had AU boxed up (unless they're still doing that, though it's pretty much stated as not), they should have gone straight into RoW. And even with the added complications of paperwork, should not take that long. They were shipping out in the "thousand per week" when it mattered. A couple hundred (at most, if I've done my math right) boxes shouldn't take that long.

But it's PB. When in doubt, procrastinate. When forced into action, drag your feet. When called on it, deflect blame. It appears to be how they roll.

And obviously the sensible thing to do for wave 2 would be to send APAC rewards first, then EU, then Canada, then ROW, then continental US LAST.

That way they would stand a snowballs chance of getting them delivered within a few weeks of each other.

Chances of PB actually doing it this way: Get Real!

1/ They're not that intelligent.
2/ That would delay getting the wave 2 non-exclusive product to retail.
and
3/ They're NOT that intelligent.

I realise that point 3 is a repeat, but though it was such a good point it deserved mentioning twice.

And "The ship that will take our container to the UK has experienced delays. It docked in Oakland yesterday after sitting off the coast waiting for almost a week. I know, because I’ve been watching it sit there for the last several days" WTF! Get off your butt and pack stuff and send to ROW backers! EU and APAC delays are now out of PB's hands (And I bet they are having a drink about that. We can no longer blame them for not getting our stuff to us quicker. Sheesh!) but you could be speeding ROW backer rewards to them.

"I’m sorry, guys. We had no idea it would take this long for your stuff to reach you. When we shipped it out over a month ago, we thought it would be aboard ship and nearly to the UK or even there and shipping by now" Well now they do actually have a clue. Wonder how that'll affect wave 2?

"Every new problem and delay is, as Kevin would say, “a dagger in our hearts.” If it upsets you, it kills us and hurts our reputation". The amount of "Upset" has obviously killed them. This is why we are facing such problems now - Zombie Kevin!

Standard pb, let's blame everyone else

This is fething horsegak.

feth palladium. 2 years after the expected release and 6 months after North America is not acceptable. And they think they can wash their hands of any charges accrued through their negligence? What a bunch of class A gak.

I hope they all choke the next time Kevin passes around the koolaid.

So one of the backers, Eric smith, got hissy cause he got a c&d for making robotech figures available on shapeways.

 warboss wrote:
Where does it say enforced? I saw that you "MAY" create your own character but not that you must. I don't have the rules with me at the moment but do squadron leaders count as characters? If not, a special would certainly do the trick to be your army commander.

No, at a glance I thought the "A Character must be selected as the overall commander of your force and noted on your army list." rule meant having to use a custom character, but I suppose Rick or Roy or Max could just as easily be leading the squad.

That said, it's a shame they can't ship to ROW locations, becau...

Palladium shout outs over their Holiday Grab Bags wrote:I.P. in Vanves, France, writes:

Frank in Bavaria, Germany, writes:

B.W. in Barnstaple, Devon, Great Britain, writes:

Oh, I guess if you're willing to pay extra they are willing to ship to the Rest of the World.

 Albertorius wrote:
Sorry about the outburst. I'll rephrase, then.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't care about any of that stuff. Finish the fething KS, and give me my damn toys!

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't see what EU / Oz is whining about.

PB did what people asked, which was to find a way to keep the fees and taxes down.

PB could have mailed them from the US a month ago, with accurate and current MSRP values on the manifests, rather than containerizing them to save on VAT / Import / Customs charges.

So you have to wait? Guess what, everyone has waited for this, and we've got even more waiting yet again. I'm just thankful that PB is committed to actually delivering. I see way too many KS fail to deliver (e.g. Imbrian Arts). Getting the toys we paid for restores a little faith.

Don't you think that it is more than a bit ironic to bemoan people for whining because they don't have their stuff already, when you're doing exactly the same thing, in exactly the same thread, in exactly the same page?

It's not ironic but more accurately hypocritical. He's complaining about getting the remainder of his items while bemoaning folks who are unhappy because they've yet to receive anything. I'm sure ROW backers would rather be in the situation where they have wave 1 and are nervous about getting wave 2 just like he is instead of sitting for almost 2 years with nothing to show for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Conrad Turner wrote:
And obviously the sensible thing to do for wave 2 would be to send APAC rewards first, then EU, then Canada, then ROW, then continental US LAST.

That way they would stand a snowballs chance of getting them delivered within a few weeks of each other.

Chances of PB actually doing it this way: Get Real!

That I'd disagree with and not because of my own location in the US. They should try to do the most good for the greatest amount first which means shipping "locally" (for them) first. I also wouldn't bemoan a EU campaign for shipping local EU orders to get the greatest number of orders out the door in the shortest amount of time. That said, I also don't think they should sell anything anywhere else until they've made an honest effort of getting all the orders out the door which obviously didn't happen during wave 1.

Nope, shouldn't sell anything else to anyone at all for any reason until the backers have wave two *at least* in the mail, if not in hand.

Oh... wait...

195 days to Gencon.

Whelp, there goes that idea.

But hey, we have a countdown again! And no matter what they say about "not having a target", we can all see the elephant in the room.

I fully expect them to try the same crap again and learn nothing from this year's Gencon debacle and the spanking that karma gave them. I fully expect their top priority to be getting wave 2 for sale at gencon 2015 with backers being an afterthought to be addressed only if that primary goal is met (beyond just a token amount of pledges being sent to fan friends first to give a grain of truth to a claim of them sending out pledges before selling).

That does remind me that I should start the wave 2 Gencon doomsday 2015 clock.

 warboss wrote:
I fully expect them to try the same crap again and learn nothing from this year's Gencon debacle and the spanking that karma gave them. I fully expect their top priority to be getting wave 2 for sale at gencon 2015 with backers being an afterthought to be addressed only if that primary goal is met (beyond just a token amount of pledges being sent to fan friends first to give a grain of truth to a claim of them sending out pledges before selling).

That does remind me that I should start the wave 2 Gencon doomsday 2015 clock.

I'm not even sure they'll bother with that.

They will. They have to give the white knights something to defend, even if it is a single flower growing in the center of a waste treatment center retention pond.

Also, here is the likely annual countdown clock.

https://countingdownto.com/countdown/palladium-s-trail-of-broken-promises-gen-con-2015-edition-countdown-clock

Just remember that every time they voluntarily break a promise that it hurts them more than it hurts you. According to the latest update, every delay is like "a dagger in our hearts" that they promptly remove and place squarely in pledgers' collective backs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Morgan:

I took a peek over at the Palladium forums and had a response to your post there. I suspect I'm off my 3 month ban for pre-crime trolling (yes... I got punished AHEAD of trolling the NEXT kickstarter by NMI) but I don't care to try to login and find out.

You mentioned a very unlikely scenario of folks with professionally painted armies that lose all their games and getting a higher score and winning the tourney while those who shabbily paint and win every game lose.

You're making ALOT of incorrect assumptions there. While the exact numbers vary, most tournies that have painting requirements and scoring still have the actual game score be the single largest part of score. It is usually at least twice that of any other category and frequently at least half of the total score. Your scenario is a bit fear mongering frankly. That said, this is palladium we're talking about so they could place the greatest weight on the alphabetical order of the player's middle names for all we know... but your presented scenario for well run tournies is incredibly unlikely.

Isn't the key phrase of that 'well-run' tournies? Has PB ever run anything well?

 warboss wrote:
@Morgan:

I took a peek over at the Palladium forums and had a response to your post there. I suspect I'm off my 3 month ban for pre-crime trolling (yes... I got punished AHEAD of trolling the NEXT kickstarter by NMI) but I don't care to try to login and find out.

Don't blame you. It's a pretty toxic atmosphere over there for people critical of PB.

 warboss wrote:
You mentioned a very unlikely scenario of folks with professionally painted armies that lose all their games and getting a higher score and winning the tourney while those who shabbily paint and win every game lose.

Actually, I said that the hypothetical Forar would beat the hypothetical Jaymz. Never said that hForar would win.

 warboss wrote:
You're making ALOT of incorrect assumptions there. While the exact numbers vary, most tournies that have painting requirements and scoring still have the actual game score be the single largest part of score. It is usually at least twice that of any other category and frequently at least half of the total score. Your scenario is a bit fear mongering frankly. That said, this is palladium we're talking about so they could place the greatest weight on the alphabetical order of the player's middle names for all we know... but your presented scenario for well run tournies is incredibly unlikely.

And I may be making several incorrect assumptions. But I did specifically state "assuming the categories are evenly distributed". I wouldn't expect a properly run tournament to have 4/6 of the tourney points tied to the modelling side, and 1/6 being actual gameplay, but the fact that that's not spelled out in the AdeptiCon document means the possibility shouldn't be discounted. Heck, that the four modelling aspects are all separately bulleted, rather than "Painting/Theme/Conversion/Display Board" (still don't know what that last one means), and are placed higher up, could mean they have a HIGHER weight than the other two.

The whole point of that post was to put forth a hypothetical of the absurd, so if the assumptions made do have foundation, they can hopefully be corrected before it becomes an issue. The number of times during the campaign where people have warned Palladium about a hole, pointed out the hole, and begged them not to step in the hole, only to watch PB stumble into the hole regardless, is freaky common. And as you admit, when it comes to PB, anything is possible. Including stepping into this hole.

@Warboss: while that's a point we've been over (err, somewhere, there's a lot of conversing going on), the sheet in question doesn't lay out the weighing of those different factors, just lists them.

If games are worth 75% and the others are 5% apiece, it's less of an issue. If they're equally weighted, it's kind of a problem if some nice dude with pro painted figures/'display' goes 0-4 and walks off with first prize.

I'm sure the Venn Diagram of 'people who care/spend enough time to master a game' and 'people who are inclined to either learn to paint like a master or pay to have someone due it' has significant overlap, but I have a hard time believing that standard tournament rules would reward first place to someone with less than a 75% win ratio, even with 'good sportsmanship' and 'ballin' golden daemon painting' as tie breakers.

But as I've often admitted, I am not a warhammer player of any sort, so I haven't actually played in such tournaments to know. While painting requirements and little bumps or extra prizes for well painted figures/conversions were a thing I can vaguely recall during my time watching Malifaux, I can't recall anyone 'winning a tournament' without, y'know, actually winning a bunch of games too.

 warboss wrote:
That I'd disagree with and not because of my own location in the US. They should try to do the most good for the greatest amount first which means shipping "locally" (for them) first. I also wouldn't bemoan a EU campaign for shipping local EU orders to get the greatest number of orders out the door in the shortest amount of time. That said, I also don't think they should sell anything anywhere else until they've made an honest effort of getting all the orders out the door which obviously didn't happen during wave 1.

<Not angry, little sad and certainly sarcastic, but not angry> (Well, not angry at Warboss, certainly. Kev's a different matter!)

So you'd be happy that "The most good" means that anywhere outside of mainland US gets tanked for a second time running. The fact is it may well spell the death of the game outside the continental US - which the more I think about it, the less bothered about that outcome I am.

PB have 'annoyed' every non-US backer and the word-of-mouth is spreading. Retailers shouldn't have RRT for sale in the UK, well they do. Kevin moaning that they shouldn't be selling before backers get theirs - especially after items have been sold and are up for pre-order - has as much effect in his favour as farting in a colander. If PB don't get wave 2 to us in a much improved manner - and I'm not stopping my clock just because they posted me some decals from the US - then they might as well just turn around and deny that anything outside of the US exists.

How about the thought that "The most good" would be getting ALL backers their rewards in a timely manner. If you can say that you have shipped ALL rewards, what can people complain about when you send to retail? And if all rewards have shipped, you don't need to worry about which country you are retailing into, because backers will have the rewards shortly anyway, right? And EU, AU, and RoW being able to order, and receive, from US retailers before pledges get to them means that Kev's squeeling that "It shouldn't happen" is a complete waste of air. Getting stuff for a game in dribs and drabs WILL kill any interest from non-fans. That bloke on the street that gets tempted when he sees a couple of guys having a game may buy some stuff, but not if he's told "That's because we were backers. They've released it to retail in the states, but you have to order from there if you want anything but the base units. And there aren't enough of them in the base box to field an army for the upcoming sanctioned tournament without going and ordering add-on sets from America, but on the bright side - what you pay in postage will only make it as dear as you would have paid anyway!"

There is no way, given their previous perfomance, that they can afford to say "No retail until all backer rewards have shipped." but how crazy is it that the Australian rewards were sent from China to the US, then back to AU. Surely it's possible that they could have been shipped directly from China? OH, no. That won't work either, can't have anyone but US citizens getting their rewards first! What didn't work in Wave 1 ....... won't work in wave 2. They are not going to pull some mysterious trick out of their bag for wave 2 so it all goes like clockwork. they are still going to have problems with customs, they are still having problems with shipping, and they seem to think that it will all magically work properly next time round.

RRT is currently 379 days late and counting. I dare Kevin to stop that clock in 2015!

No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.

Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?

Ninja'd by morgan's response above.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.

Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?

I'm sure that you have no problem telling PB that they can delay your shipment till everything else is sent out then, so that they can use the time they spend shipping your product on other people who care about WHEN they get their product.

Also, I'm not sure it's the ROW part of this debate that's being 'reall so stupid'

The funny thing is that, from the numbers I've run and the statements by Palladium, US citizens make up the *vast majority* of the backers. Somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000, or around 75-85%.

So especially in a case where they're not sending to recipients individually, but merely boxing up a big pallet to ship off to a distribution center, I don't see how it has helped them to hold those for last.

And ROW where apparently the paperwork isn't really all that complicated, given that people are responsible for the fees? So it's basically "put down address, fill out a few boxes, put in mail"? We're not talking about them bartering with a half dozen sources, they're sending things in the mail!

I've mailed things to the US, Australia, and other international destinations. I didn't need to sit down with a slide rule and a half dozen college textbooks to sort it out. And I didn't have an 'expert shipping consultant' assisting me either.

Look, yes, the container situation ended up being a clusterfeth, but they were supposed to have enough containers to do the vast majority of backers by the end of October, if not sometime in November. Holidays and grab bags (*eye roll*) and everything, they've had at least 2 (if not possibly 3) months to sort that gak out and they're still getting quotes.

Man, shipping to Australia must be a simply Herculean task.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.

Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?

Classy.

Which is totally why you said "give me my damn toys!", with 'me' being used in an entirely open ended 'everyone in the world, especially those poor frustrated ROW backers who still don't have gak and possibly won't a full half year after the US got theirs'.

Truly you are the most kind hearted and empathic of souls.

And are in no way digging yourself deeper calling people's intelligence into question. Kind hearted!

 Forar wrote:
@Warboss: while that's a point we've been over (err, somewhere, there's a lot of conversing going on), the sheet in question doesn't lay out the weighing of those different factors, just lists them.

If games are worth 75% and the others are 5% apiece, it's less of an issue. If they're equally weighted, it's kind of a problem if some nice dude with pro painted figures/'display' goes 0-4 and walks off with first prize.

I'm sure the Venn Diagram of 'people who care/spend enough time to master a game' and 'people who are inclined to either learn to paint like a master or pay to have someone due it' has significant overlap, but I have a hard time believing that standard tournament rules would reward first place to someone with less than a 75% win ratio, even with 'good sportsmanship' and 'ballin' golden daemon painting' as tie breakers.

Again, the scenario you're talking about assumes that EVERYONE else got exactly zero on EVERY painting score. Even in the case of equal weighting, someone who loses every game and gets a perfect score on painting would LOSE to someone who won every game and got a 1% score on painting. So even in your absurd example, someone who just meets the minimum 3 color painting requirements but wins every game "wins" the tourney over the guy who got his army painted for one million dollars and lost every game. Once you actually plug in realistically encountered weighting, the soft score end up being the tipping point between players of roughly equal game scores. Then things get even more nuanced when games are not just scored by simple W/L but rather with how badly or well you won or lost. The 0-4 W/L and all versus nothing painting scenario just isn't realistic nor common. That said, if someone does have a pro painted army done by a 3rd party then they shouldn't be eligible to win a specific painting prize. Ideally, a large tourney should have individual awards for best general, sportsmanship, and painting as well as an overall "renaissance" winner where all three scores are combined. That isn't feasible for small events with low turnouts where you just have a single combined score.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Conrad Turner wrote:

So you'd be happy that "The most good" means that anywhere outside of mainland US gets tanked for a second time running. The fact is it may well spell the death of the game outside the continental US - which the more I think about it, the less bothered about that outcome I am.

PB have 'annoyed' every non-US backer and the word-of-mouth is spreading.

I take offense to that! Please remove the "non-US" part of your post and plenty of US backers are unhappy as well! The doucheness of Palladium is not limited to ROW shipping (although that is currently and deservedly at the forefront right now).

As for the first part, I wouldn't be "happy" but it makes sense. Get the most product out to the most number of individual backers. In the end, if you can make 100 people happy with smaller orders that are local that still beats out making 30 people with bigger orders much further away happy. 100>30. It's a matter of numbers. That makes sense to me as long as it is done methodically and impartially. YMMV. That obviously didn't happen in wave 1 either though since Palladium specifically tailored production MONTHS before the vote towards what they wanted to SELL at gencon and not what would make the most backers happy. It's pathetic that in the first month and a half, they only got about 5% of the orders out due to their own greed.

 warboss wrote:
realistically encountered weighting

Palladium Books

Look, it's low hanging fruit, but if you're gonna expect rational actions from Palladium and their fans...

Sining wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, I just want to see that everything gets delivered AT ALL, regardless of when.

Is the ROW reall so stupid that they don't get that basic concept?

I'm sure that you have no problem telling PB that they can delay your shipment till everything else is sent out then, so that they can use the time they spend shipping your product on other people who care about WHEN they get their product.

Given my backlog, that would be fine. It's not like I didn't have anything else to do while I waited for the first batch to arrive, and it's not like I'm lacking a vast list of things to work on while other stuff is in progress. If Wave 2 takes another year, fine by me.

The only important bit is that it arrives at some point.

Every new problem and delay is, as Kevin would say, “a dagger in our hearts.” If it upsets you, it kills us and hurts our reputation.

I am unsure which reference to use:
"Our lady of sorrows" referencing the 7 sorrows of the virgin Mary depicting 7 daggers in her heart...

OR

From the Omen: the seven ancient daggers of Megiddo used to kill the anti-Christ.

I suppose at the very least seeing these delays to the international backers it is hard to complain when you have the darn things in-hand.

I think the new complaints will be PB setting the bar of 400 points and well painted models.
It begs the question of what right do they have to demand these things that would take no small amount of effort?
It is just them trying to use their customers to be their advertising department (make those darn models shiny you dogs!).

I will now go look for the seven signs of how PB's reputation could possibly be hurt.

Just to point it out again, from what I've read, it appears to be a 'side event' being held by some dude (possibly the guy who ran a similar set of games during Gencon last year?), not the 'tournament' that is being run by Palladium's "Megaversal Ambassador" program, whom seem to know no more about this than we do.

However, as noted previously, PB/the MA crew now kind of need to sort out what they ARE going to do sooner rather than later, lest this become something of a precedent.

So while it deserves attention and critique, this isn't officially Palladium's stance. Though they really should clarify that to keep everyone on the same page.

I suspect your about 25 years too late. Muddled and confusing rules from palladium (whether in a game or regarding an event) are the long standing precedent. Hey, don't blame me... you're the one who showed me the low hanging fruit! In any case, clarification will likely come from the MA organizer and not PB. They need to have a fall guy to blame if things go badly even if it was at their direct behest!