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Sining wrote:
I think there is actually a collated list somewhere. I remember eating it once and seeing that xwing was the best selling game of that quarter followed by wh40k then wmh then whfb. This was two years back I think

I've heard of some people being able to 'absorb information' but...wow!

Bleh, autocorrect is weird on my phone sometimes. Doesn't help that I use swype either. I meant 'reading it once'

 Talizvar wrote:
I figure web sales are great if they are happening, we want people to play the game with right?

The one lonely box at my FLGS is still sitting there since the initial shipments.
I think the owner is hoping I take it off his hands... not so amusing stuff.

Meanwhile, my FLGS had a few starters but sold out. And has a small group getting up and running.

Eumerin wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
It's a top seller because ROW is having to buy it through these channels, instead of getting their KS stuff, duh!

Also, "best sellers" tend to be notoriously difficult to get because they're often sold out. When the stock is 20+, that's a little dubious.

But, if it does turn out to be a best seller - hurrah?

Stormanu go look at the list up above, most of those games I've never heard of, and yet other games that company sells I know sell a lot are not even listed, like Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh Warmachine, warhordes and so on, yet some unknown games are outselling them?

Both Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh are CCGs. The list is tracking table-top games, which I don't think includes CCGs (though I think it *does* include LCGs and deck-building games).

As for the rest of the list...

My FLGS carries most of the items on the list. The notable exceptions are the Dragon Age RPG (I didn't even know that was still around; the expansion was likely timed to coincide with Inquisition, which no doubt boosted sales), and the Planetfall starter (which I special ordered, but the store didn't otherwise stock).

actually the list is not the top 20 table top games, but the top 20 best sellers in their entire store, which is higher priced then most other online stores obviously.

Just a note on community activity. At this point it is like the same 25 people mainly commenting across most of the forums.

So even saying that there are three active communities isn't really accurate.

I'm pretty sure I have a lot more than 25.....

But then some people have started making here and KS comments so toxic I'm not surprised.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I'm pretty sure I have a lot more than 25.....

But then some people have started making here and KS comments so toxic I'm not surprised.

Yeah, thanks Palladium!

Although I am not really caring anymore about this KS I have been inspired on how to paint some of them.

I have been showing my 4yo son original transformers episodes from the 80's and I reckon I am going to paint some of the veritechs like Starscream and the other fighter jet transformers.

Joyboozer wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I'm pretty sure I have a lot more than 25.....

But then some people have started making here and KS comments so toxic I'm not surprised.

Yeah, thanks Palladium!

While I readily admit that PB has played a major role, they are far from the only players on the stage and having hecklers in the audience does not help either.

While I agree, ultimately PB has no one to blame for almost all of this but themselves.

 Alpharius wrote:
While I agree, ultimately PB has no one to blame for almost all of this but themselves.

Oh, come now. If there's anything that's been clear from PB for a long time, it's that there is always someone else to blame.

It's unfortunate how much snark can be directed towards this project. Even saying this as someone who lobs an awful lot their way.

I mean, hell, if one reads back through this thread, I'd say there's a progression from reluctance (based on PB's reputation) to hope (based on ND's slickly run campaign) to confusion over the dramatic shift in the following weeks, to dawning horror/mock optimism (I'm guilty of a lot of this), to outright mockery from the ongoing shenanigans.

It'd be nice if, I dunno, the shenanigans ended. People keep asserting that they've totally learned so much, so show us! The bar is set low on Wave 2 because Wave 1 was a series of running gags, but it's not impossible for them to really emphasize that they *have* changed/improved.

If they want to.

If not, well, I guess they and we alike can keep the status quo.

Kevin's probably too old to change

 Mike1975 wrote:
While I readily admit that PB has played a major role, they are far from the only players on the stage and having hecklers in the audience does not help either.

Heckler: To embarrass or annoy, harass, badger (a public speaker) with the intent to disturb performers or participants.
For some it could be a means of trying to "get even" for some perceived slight or just not getting what they want, I can see heckler being a valid label for those people.

I deal with suppliers and manufacturing processes and international shipping: it is not that hard and there are plenty of fairly inexpensive experts you can get to handle it.
The more inflammatory comments from PB can only fall within two categories: lies or incompetence which tends to draw out the inner heckler.

I strongly suggest they have an eye on expenses and many delays could have been attributed by seeking inexpensive solutions (or increased revenue streams) but unwilling to call it for what it is and adding "spin" to what they have to say.

Actual errors or gaffs can and do happen, but again, they will not own up to it (more spin) or to save money they do not get experts to help avoid these issues and stumble into problems blind.

To not let these "water under the bridge" comments pass gracefully is in hope they change their behavior (for the better) and take steps to improve for next time.

To not acknowledge the source of problems will only allow them to continue.
The black-out on Wave 2 timing is another error: choosing not to pick some kind of timeline only allows rumor, at least an itemized list of things to be done and listing progress would address apprehension of their customer base. It just seems wrong to promise something, take the money, then refuse to share when final delivery will happen.

The only "other players" would be Ninja Division which has bowed out or pushed out which no-one will confirm or deny, Harmony Gold which only holds a stagnant license for Robotech which has not rights to future contrived works based on it, the molding / manufacturing supplier and various groups for shipping. Harmony Gold is the only company PB cannot be in charge of so I cannot see blame being able to go very far afield since PB holds the money for all the other groups.

To hear zero comments from PB on how things will be made better speaks volumes of PB as an organization.
If they truly want to do another KS for the other chapters of Robotech, they pretty much have committed to them being handled the same way... which is consistent for them I guess.

I only ask they do not trot-out a new front-man and claim everything will be different than their normal method of doing things again OK?
Their own organizational track-record is "honest" enough that if you are willing to wait and the product will make some money, PB will put it out eventually.

Sining wrote:
Kevin's probably too old to change

Unfortunately, change requires not just willingness to acknowledge the commitment but also enough awareness to understand that change is needed in the first place.

 Forar wrote:
Seriously. The most active communities I've found are the KS comments (now mostly dead compared to what they've been), Mike's page and here.
Palladium forums? Ghost town. Jaymz's page has maybe a 150 people last I checked. And the BGG subforum gets maybe a handful of posts per week, mostly asking about shipping.
Now, granted, the product just came out, but for something with a cult following (... what an on-point description of a PB product) and 2 years of development time, it's not exactly 'new'.
Any thriving communities I've missed?

 Swabby wrote:
Just a note on community activity. At this point it is like the same 25 people mainly commenting across most of the forums.
So even saying that there are three active communities isn't really accurate.

But of course in their view "Everything is Awesome." because, of course, they say so - doing this all the while they make it a point to keep saying don't listen to anybody with lukewarm, let alone negative, thoughts on [X] game that cannot possibly fail.
Which is a somewhat curious behavior though because if said game has such a significant, thriving community and cannot possibly fail why is there a need at all to downplay and refute anything negative or less than completely enthusiastic.

And those nice people never, or very rarely, stop to think about why everyone else who would normally be vocal on/offline isn't interested in joining their mutual admiration society.

"... they make a desolation and they call it peace." - Tacitus, [As translated by William Peterson]

 Talizvar wrote:
To not acknowledge the source of problems will only allow them to continue.

Funny isn't it how very few people ever want to mention going along to get along pretty much never helps things get better.
Because yeah, if a person or organization with a repeated pattern of counter-productive behavior is never called out or checked on it what incentive is there for them to change in any fashion.

If they don't change or even acknowledge that they have a problem, that is certainly no reason to not keep pointing it out to them as well as others.



"It is the rare fortune of these days that one may think what one likes and say what one thinks." - Tacitus, ca. 56 – ca. 117

_
_

Smilodon: Overall summary I think is: They do not want to change and your comments are only confusing them.

Sure. They still have my Wave 2 stuff to deliver.

You know, something they can take a "lessons learned" from Wave 1.

I can assure you when all deliverables are met, the silence will be deafening (much to the relief of many!).

$1 donation for their next KS anyone? At least to say "get out while you can!" in the backer comments?

I see them as an employee that takes criticism very poorly. Telling them they are wrong and getting in their face, a very typical American thing, will not work. They will most likely shut down and ignore you completely. If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.

So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not.

#2 is MUCH more difficult and will work but requires patience and is only sometime successful and not always to the point we hope it to be (remember the 10 questions for PB)?

NOW, that being said, most people do not have the patience or desire to go read 100 posts of pissed off people, especially when it is about them or something they love. So what does this mean? It means that there is a reason why many do not post on PB's site, here, and the KS comments anymore. If you support PB in any way you are a "collaborator" and must be taught.

So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.

After all the complaints about 40k pricing did it ever change? Will it ever change? Do you honestly think that or the way they do anything will change because of massed complaints?

A virus is small and can bring down the biggest of creatures and does so from within.

What it comes down to is Kevin has surrounded himself with yes men, if anyone questions his decisions or says that might not work, they will be fired or removed, Kevin should have been kept away from this project with a competent project manager handling it.

biggest thing people can do is show their displeasure with their wallet and word of mouth, its all you can do, because Kevin will not change and as long as he owns the company and is in charge it will not change. and currently I give the company a short life span and if they encounter problems with wave 2 I predict a crash and burn.

 Talizvar wrote:
$1 donation for their next KS anyone? At least to say "get out while you can!" in the backer comments?

I'm pretty sure some long-time RIFTS players gave warning the first go, but nobody listened because 100 minis for $100.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
$1 donation for their next KS anyone? At least to say "get out while you can!" in the backer comments?

I'm pretty sure some long-time RIFTS players gave warning the first go, but nobody listened because 100 minis for $100.

actually John I didn't hear any reports of warning early on in the KS. not even from Jorel really.

Weird. I wonder where I read it.

 Mike1975 wrote:
I see them as an employee that takes criticism very poorly. Telling them they are wrong and getting in their face, a very typical American thing, will not work. They will most likely shut down and ignore you completely. If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.

So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not.

#2 is MUCH more difficult and will work but requires patience and is only sometime successful and not always to the point we hope it to be (remember the 10 questions for PB)?

NOW, that being said, most people do not have the patience or desire to go read 100 posts of pissed off people, especially when it is about them or something they love. So what does this mean? It means that there is a reason why many do not post on PB's site, here, and the KS comments anymore. If you support PB in any way you are a "collaborator" and must be taught.

So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.

After all the complaints about 40k pricing did it ever change? Will it ever change? Do you honestly think that or the way they do anything will change because of massed complaints?

A virus is small and can bring down the biggest of creatures and does so from within.

Guys, we must totally be patient with the people taking our money. Wait...that seems backwards somehow

And oh, all those complaints about 40k pricing? It's not like more and more people just stopped buying it did they. Nope, all those people just kept complaining and kept buying without stopping. That must be why GWs profits keep dropping.

Mass Complaints are the first indication that something is wrong with the system. Much like pain is a way your body tells you something is wrong. Ignoring it or pretending it's not there isn't going to help. Nor is shouting at your body/consumer 'stop complaining so much' going to help either.

Sining wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
I see them as an employee that takes criticism very poorly. Telling them they are wrong and getting in their face, a very typical American thing, will not work. They will most likely shut down and ignore you completely. If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.

So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not.

#2 is MUCH more difficult and will work but requires patience and is only sometime successful and not always to the point we hope it to be (remember the 10 questions for PB)?

NOW, that being said, most people do not have the patience or desire to go read 100 posts of pissed off people, especially when it is about them or something they love. So what does this mean? It means that there is a reason why many do not post on PB's site, here, and the KS comments anymore. If you support PB in any way you are a "collaborator" and must be taught.

So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.

After all the complaints about 40k pricing did it ever change? Will it ever change? Do you honestly think that or the way they do anything will change because of massed complaints?

A virus is small and can bring down the biggest of creatures and does so from within.

Guys, we must totally be patient with the people taking our money. Wait...that seems backwards somehow

And oh, all those complaints about 40k pricing? It's not like more and more people just stopped buying it did they. Nope, all those people just kept complaining and kept buying without stopping. That must be why GWs profits keep dropping.

Mass Complaints are the first indication that something is wrong with the system. Much like pain is a way your body tells you something is wrong. Ignoring it or pretending it's not there isn't going to help. Nor is shouting at your body/consumer 'stop complaining so much' going to help either.

Looking, looking,,,nope, I don't see the word patient. In fact I never said you do not have a good complaint or a bad one for that matter.

What I did say...reading English.....yes....I did say it...

"So I see all this yelling "PB is EVIL" and "PB must be taught to change" as a large waste of time and effort. Time and history has shown us that this will not help and is not the way to go. So people still do it anyways because they can't think past being upset whether they have legitimate reasons to be or not. "

So all the complaining has changed 40k how? Their prices still drop. At what point will they wake up?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
What it comes down to is Kevin has surrounded himself with yes men, if anyone questions his decisions or says that might not work, they will be fired or removed, Kevin should have been kept away from this project with a competent project manager handling it.

biggest thing people can do is show their displeasure with their wallet and word of mouth, its all you can do, because Kevin will not change and as long as he owns the company and is in charge it will not change. and currently I give the company a short life span and if they encounter problems with wave 2 I predict a crash and burn.

True or not, the only way to make some change, any change is to either push it all to crash and burn...yay (sarcasm) or try to make some changes by making them in a non-threatening way. Some people do not handle or listen to criticism well. That's life. Again...has 40k has listened to the players?

 Mike1975 wrote:
So continue the railing and gnashing of teeth. In your heart you know it will have no effect. While you do that some of us have been able to help PB work on the FAQ and Force Orgs. Is it taking way too much time, I think so. Can I change that? I can try by nudging them and reminding them. Do I think it will be all I hoped? No. But it is a step, albeit not a big one, in the right direction.

I disagree, but from a different perspective. As Talizvar and Asterios mentioned, I think most of the "railing and gnashing of teeth" are not in any way intended to "change Palladium". It's more an outlet to express frustration, and as a means to warn people who aren't familiar, from making the same mistakes the disgruntled backers are. Not as a means of public service, but as a means to hit PB in the only place they can, their income stream. Any potential sale warned off, is a sale PB don't make.

You mention that it won't change things, and that smaller nudges are required. And that's true. But only for people who still are invested in making this (and potentially future) projects successful. There are a statistically significant number* of backers who will, or already have partially or completely dumped out, or if not so drastic, aren't going any further with the line. And for those, the frustration and potential associated financial costs mean they either don't care if, or are actively rooting for, PB to burn.

* Unlikely even close to a majority, but unprovable either way as what is it, 80% of the backers have never commented? I'm only going on the raw number of players that have declared

I get that from your position of wanting the game to succeed, that this kind of commentary works against you. But it's human nature, through relationships, politics, religion, economics, the legal system, and especially through the "first world problem" that is gaming, to rail against things that you know you likely cannot change.

You can hope for a better relationship, but that'll only happen if PB make serious amends, and we all know that's never going to happen. With their head stuck in the sand mentality, it's going to continue. Much like how most of the backers I'm talking about feel about PB, you can hate what's happening, but don't expect it to change.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Weird. I wonder where I read it.

lot of it came up after PB was late on some of their dates, then the so called WK's came in saying we should have known better since that is how PB operates, which made matters worse for those who had just complaints and such.

 Talizvar wrote:
I only ask they do not trot-out a new front-man and claim everything will be different than their normal method of doing things again OK?

I think that bridge has been burned. They got a second chance here, to potentially show that either they can improve how they do business, or step back and let others take care of a product line while they count the money. I don't think they'll get a third chance from a lot of the displeased RRT backers.

People can point to their NG1/2 fiasco and decades of delays and overpromising and smugly say 'you should've known better' all they like, but that kind of backhanded admonishment speaks worse of Palladium than it does of those who were willing to give them another chance.

 Talizvar wrote:
$1 donation for their next KS anyone? At least to say "get out while you can!" in the backer comments?

Hell, if they're smart they'll follow Academy's route and have an Enemy Spy tier. I'd totally pitch in an extra buck for that alone.

Realistically, if they do a campaign for series 2 and/or 3, it'll probably fund. No matter what bridges they've burned, they have a die hard (occasionally cult-like) fan base that will drop them 100k or whatever, plus new blood who either ignore the naysayers or join with the same wide eyed 'maybe it'll be better this time' sense of forgiveness others had before.

They'd fund, I have no doubt of that. But 1.5m? I highly doubt it. I'd be surprised if they broke a million. And honestly, I think they'd do well to NOT 'explode', but to run a sensible campaign, with sensible goals, sensible stretch goals, and to simply set a reasonable target and (at least vaguely) hit it. Overestimate the delivery time (and then overestimate it again). Overestimate on shipping (or go US only, if international shipping is that difficult/expensive). Set a wider contingency fund. And then overestimate it.

 Mike1975 wrote:
If you pose it constructively and carefully it works much better but even then is not always taken to heart.

Nice caveat there, but bullgak. They do not listen to critique. You've given plenty of critique from the inside, and yet bemoaned things that did not change or get fixed that you pointed out repeatedly. Plenty of people tried to be reasonable, to be polite, and it rarely got anything but silence or platitudes. A minor uprising got a response a few times, but the community seems long past caring that much at this point. They respond to nigh-civil unrest, but politely addressing concerns has generally been met with silence. And we know they don't read the comments, they don't read their forums, apparently they know of this thread but 'the negativity' presumably keeps them away, and when asked 10 polite questions we got a small handful of responses, assurances we'd hear more, and then I'm pretty sure nothing else.

Shenanigans with wave two could cause the giant to stir from its slumber, but now that we know most of the backers have their wave one, it'll placate them in the face of a great deal of adversity.

Though if there isn't something tangible happening by Gencon, I suspect there'll be trouble again.

But your bit about them hating reading mean things? Feth that. They didn't react or respond to people being reasonable, I don't buy for a second that their silence and detachment are purely based on 'because people are mean on the internet'.

And if that's the case then they need a thick skinned, internet savvy, PR man or woman even worse than we already knew they did.

I mean, man, I've looked over your site. The same 'negativity' and 'must be taught' attitude you rail against here is plenty prevalent between Eric, Alex, Anthony, and others lashing out over the slightest hint of criticism. It's plenty insular unto itself, and filled with people who would rather be Internet Tough Guys and respond with smug eye rolling image memes than have a discussion.

Hell, the discussion about the tournaments brought out the Elitist attitudes in droves. Straw men were slaughtered by the dozen during those conversations alone.

Regarding 'warnings'; go read this very threads first pages. Pretty sure there was some skepticism expressed there.

But during the campaign itself, in the comments? Yes, that was mostly positive, with a few voices expressing concern over the, err... optimistic delivery target.

Remember, they were to go to manufacturing within 45 days of the campaign ending!

:-O

And I'm with Morgan. Some people are done with trying to be sensible, reasonable, and to passively hope that PB listens to their suggestions. If they want to engage with the community, then they need to work on it. If not, then they can just let Wayne post a few tidbits every other week on your page, hidden away from 75-90% of the backers.

Mike wrote: I think this is part and parcel results from the group that "Love" Robotech but swear that it is going to fail and have nothing better to do than tell everyone they can. (KS COMMENTS + DAKKADAKKA) You know who they are.

*snipped list of reasons things aren't that bad*

So while these people say we are bad for supporting it what else can we do? Can you support RRT and not PB? NO! They go hand in hand. It is this or nothing. Or wait a century and hope that someone else gets the license. Very Doubtful.

So after all that. Play On! screw the detractors who have not played, Feel sad and lament the ROW who is still waiting but don't let it get to you. It sucks but there is nothing we can do but support it as well as we can. Supporting it does not mean we are unfeeling to the ROW plight, just that we love and want RRT to go on.

Uplifting, and thanks for the shout out! :-D

But "these people say we are bad for supporting it"?

Man, that's borderline persecution complex. Even complete donkey caves like myself generally wish well those that enjoy it. In fact, I've had vastly more people give me gak for even hinting at criticism than seen people tell those having fun that they're somehow wrong.

Plenty of debates have been stirred up between those 'factions', but rarely for the reason you're stating here.

Cultists always think they're persecuted.

Forar, I never said I got a big response. BUT I have had responses and been able to influence some things. If it was not for me the Long Range Missile upgrade would still be 8 missiles. So I readily admit they don't listen to all I say, sometimes they can be made to listen. Small changes can alter the course.

Now on the persecution thingy. Maybe it's just me but I have had a larger number of people openly comment on why they refuse to go here or the KS comments. Some have reaped what they have sown. You wanted a forum where everyone agrees with you....now you have it because just about everyone else left.

Speaking of groups, you might want to go look at yours. I think some of them probably have their pants off at this point. (edit for context: they seem to have decided that 'the prudes can feth off' and are busy posting from deviant art)

Also, kindly do not put words in my mouth. I have never. EVER. Said that I "wanted a forum where everyone agrees with me".

But you've got just that rolling on Facebook, and that you'd even think I wanted such a thing reeks of projection.

Hell, I don't generally post on the Comments anymore because watching Jorel and Jaymz and Rick and Lola desperately need to get a room in public got old and embarrassing. I think they're gushing about Conan and breasts at this point. And here? We disagree about things regularly.

But if your insular group is to be the future of RRT, it's in for a bumpy ride.

I'm not sure what it is you're trying to do Mike. Remember some of us still have absolutely no reason to post something positive, so here we are again, only now you label us haters who drive everyone away, while saying palladium should be treated with kid gloves. Excuse me for being a RoWer who made the mistake of loving Robotech so much I gave Palladium money.

Tried listing the things Palladium have done right?