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 Swabby wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Seriously? Okay, well, the latter is an accusation of bias while the former completely dismisses the target.

They are both Ad Hominem attacks.

I think you're wasting your time mate, all this thread is doing is proving why the majority of mini gamers won't play this game, there's too many things you have to turn a blind eye to.

 Swabby wrote:
They are both Ad Hominem attacks.

They are both ad hominem arguments.

Joyboozer wrote:
all this thread is doing is proving why the majority of mini gamers won't play this game

I agree with your conclusion but for different reasons.

Yeah you are right, I misused the word attack.

Judgedoug is a fan of this game though, which is short for fanatic. So I fail to see how one is worthy of mention while the other is not.

From my perspective it is weird to see a mod call out one after not being around for a while when it is leveraged against their friend and totally ignore the other when it is leveraged against someone participating in a three way argument and that person is on the opposite side of that argument.

 Manchu wrote:
Not at all. If the list simply excludes CCGs, it is still a good data point for measuring RRT's comparative sales. In fact, it would arguably be stronger evidence because there is no reason to compare RRT sales with MtG sales. I think the weak spot with my argument remains, we don't actually know how the list is "cooked." But that does not automatically mean the list reflects nothing about FRP's sales.

What benefit is there in a "list of our top sellers that ignores some of our top sellers"?

While comparing the core box of a Minis game is not quite the same as booster boxes of a CCG, if we're to accept that this is an inclusive list of their sales figures, its accuracy comes into question when a massive release somehow falls behind a product that is charitably a niche of a niche market.

And if they're ignoring CCGs, what else are they ignoring, and for what reasons?

Obviously I'm asking rhetorically here, I don't expect anyone to actually have the answers. I'm simply trying to point out why I (personally) find the assertion that FRP's 'top sellers' list is pertinent to be questionable. If it's inclusive, it's missing a massive new product, and if it's not a comprehensive list, then why not, and how does that alter the figures?

As I joked above, for all we know the Number 2 and Number 3 slots might be orders of magnitude apart, with 3 and 4 separated by 1%.

We don't know if it's by units sold, or by revenue earned, or by profit, etc. Is it US only or are all global purchases included? Like, I'm trying to not go crazy here, but if I'm to accept that nearly 2 months after release the RRT core box is outselling the latest Magic expansion, it's going to take more than figurative cooing reassurances that it's totally accurate.

Also, I still haven't seen this list of Top Distributors that people keep asserting exists. A link would be immensely appreciated.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The RRT KS had barely 5,000 backers, of which <10% are disgruntled like rigeld2.

[citation needed]

Apologies if it appears I'm splitting hairs, but you cannot back that up. We have no way of knowing what percentage of the backers are happy or unhappy, but even if we use the 'sell or don't sell at Gencon' as a basis, it'd be more like 20-25% of those who voted.

I don't consider that a hard metric, but it's probably the closest thing to a sizable portion of the community speaking up at once, and even then it was still only like 20%.

Let's not rehash the "those who didn't speak up are with me in a silent majority" bull that went on during that period. It was shenanigans then and time has not improved it.

s

Asterios wrote:
what it comes down to is when you take PB and compare it to another RPG company that started around the same time say like SJG makes one wonder why SJG did so much better then PB did? maybe its because of the owner?

Ok how about other RPG companies from the 1980s?

Victory Games - (James Bond) Disbanded 1989
Iron Crown Enterprises- (MerP and Roel Master) Bankrupt 2000
West End Games (Starwars, Paranoia) Selling off proerties as of 2011
R. Talsorian Games- periodic releases went dormant from 1998-2006
Fasa - Out of Business

@Forar - I count a disgruntled backer as a someone who makes noises. If they don't say anything, they're not disgruntled. That isn't to say that silent backers are are happy or unhappy. They're simply not bothered to the point that it's worth their energy to complain. By that definition, the 10% number holds.

As for the FRP Top20, I think the supposition that they exclude CCGs is a false one. FRP simply isn't a big card seller.

 Swabby wrote:
From my perspective it is weird to see a mod call out one after not being around for a while when it is leveraged against their friend and totally ignore the other when it is leveraged against someone participating in a three way argument and that person is on the opposite side of that argument.

First, I didn't call out anyone as a moderator. When I post anything as a mod, I use orange text. I do that to avoid precisely the kind of insinuation you keep making. Second, the argument I called out as ironic/miserable was that someone who posted evidence is like a religious fanatic or cultist, a person who doesn't care about evidence. There was no similar irony in the accusation that someone who has posted critically for many months now is biased against PB and the RRT as a disgruntled backer.

 Forar wrote:
I'm simply trying to point out why I (personally) find the assertion that FRP's 'top sellers' list is pertinent to be questionable.

 Manchu wrote:
Those who see RRT as a failure are not going to be convinced otherwise by a the FRP list. And there are good reasons why they would not be.

Forar, I don't think we are arguing. Unless you are really saying that the FRP list indicates nothing at all pertinent to this conversation.

 Manchu wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Your statement would be 100% valid for the casual shopper who has not researched this product.

I think that is exactly who drives sales of starter boxes. It's definitely who backed this KS (myself included).

 Talizvar wrote:
I feel like there should be some punch-out playing pieces like Mike used so you can play until you get the models together.

Interesting idea. A competent company would have made these available as a free download. Alas, PB is the company in question -- plus there's PB's super-prickly attitude toward IP to consider.

Gosh darn Manchu!
Infuriating-cherry-picking-not-answering-the-other-questions-pain-in-backside-this-is-not-a-personal-attack-comment!!!!!
Merely a comment on the style of replying to a sincere person wishing a more in-depth debate but should have known better from prior experience.
I will now assemble incredibly small robot miniatures with a hammer in your name.

I can't even win when I explicitly condemn PB!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the sake of clarity, let me addend another orkmoticon =

 Manchu wrote:
Forar, I don't think we are arguing. Unless you are really saying that the FRP list indicates nothing at all pertinent to this conversation.

I'm not asserting that the list 'doesn't bring anything pertinent to the conversation', but I am challenging just how useful it is.

As I've noted a few times, it's a subjective list. There's nothing objective about it other than "apparently 1 is outselling 2, 2 is outselling 3, etc". No numbers of units sold, or profits, or anything to indicate much more than that, if taken at face value, it's the 3rd best selling thing on their site.

The lack of context makes it interesting, but not really proof of anything other than perhaps "FRP is selling RRT, and apparently in high enough quantities (for whatever value that might be) to put on what may or may not be a comprehensive list of top sellers (whatever that might be; again, based on monetary sales or profit margins or units sold, etc)".

JD is throwing it down in a clearly smug "hey fethers, y'all haters can just suck it, peace out" but it's a data point missing a lot of context.

I'm not arguing that it's utterly irrelevant, but I don't feel it's nearly the magic bullet to 'put people in their place' that JD seems to believe it is.

On it's own, it's an "oooh, well that's interesting".

If you assume it is a list of what is selling the best then it is not really subjective.

 Manchu wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Your statement would be 100% valid for the casual shopper who has not researched this product.

I think that is exactly who drives sales of starter boxes. It's definitely who backed this KS (myself included).

 Talizvar wrote:
I feel like there should be some punch-out playing pieces like Mike used so you can play until you get the models together.

Interesting idea. A competent company would have made these available as a free download. Alas, PB is the company in question -- plus there's PB's super-prickly attitude toward IP to consider.

 Alpharius wrote:
Did these two series become popular in the USA in the late 80's to mid 90's?

I can't speak about Gundam because I didn't know about it until I was much older but RoboTech was super popular while it was airing (mid- to late-80s).

I made standees for every official units from every generation including the Sentinels stuff and was asked by PB to not share them.

As I said, for all we know the list is:

Imperial Assault: 2 BILLION UNITS!
Mice and Mystics: 1 BILLION UNITS!
Robotech: '... like, 20 boxes sold, or something.'

Again, hyperbole for humour, but without greater context, being 'third" could mean it's barely behind M&M and on the verge of overtaking it, or it could mean there is an order of magnitude between them (or more).

Based on the rough numbers of cores PB was receiving per container during 'shippinggate', I have doubts we're talking tens of thousands of units at retail here. Maybe, maaaaaybe low five-figures, but globally what does FRP really represent here? A couple thousand, tops?

Especially at $5/box more than CSI's normal price, and $30/box more than their sale price, which has been up repeatedly in the last two months.

Hell, one RRT box from FRP is $90 US (including shipping), 2 boxes from CSI is $140 not on sale ($100 on sale, both with free shipping). If I lived in the US and missed the Kickstarter, I know where I'd be buying from.

A few pics

 Mike1975 wrote:
A few pics

Mike, show a little appreciation of your stand-in work and get picture spammed!
It made for a great way to play before the KS so I will not make any more fun...

Funny, I was remembering of 3rd edition (?) Battletech where it had a bunch of the punch-out playing pieces with the plastic stands as well.
I am not as content with these "placeholders" as I used to be.

Asked not to share those pieces... hehe, I seem to remember PB was all proud of some paper punch-out items up for sale in their store, cannot seem to find it from a couple searches. Could be a "supplement" they can offer.

Things I would like sold / supported as a supplement of Robotech:

Cars- I found a few to scale, I want LOTS and RULES for scooping up cars and using them to throw (or field goal with the pods). Using a tanker truck as an improvised weapon! HAHAHA (Pacific Rim has damaged me).

Scale street lighting (handy pipe to beat with), I am working on making little parks with water fountains on the larger GW disk bases (scenic trees glued down).

Inexpensive easy to stick-on roof details for my drop zone commander buildings (I know there are some out there).

I want to-scale cranes, you know for high-rise construction: I will not rest until I have a veritech swinging from one.

Were are the emergency response vehicles?

There must still be conventional tanks out there as well.

Hey! Didn't the earth have some facility with a huge gun tunneled into the earth? Could be neat scenery.

Anyway, brain is wandering all over the place but the little details make this kind of stuff immersive.

 Talizvar wrote:
Asked not to share those pieces... hehe, I seem to remember PB was all proud of some paper punch-out items up for sale in their store, cannot seem to find it from a couple searches. Could be a "supplement" they can offer.

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/133434/Palladium-Fantasy-RPG-Paper-Miniatures-1-OCCs

Hey! Didn't the earth have some facility with a huge gun tunneled into the earth? Could be neat scenery.

Yeah, the "Grand Cannon" in Alaska.

 Forar wrote:
f I lived in the US and missed the Kickstarter, I know where I'd be buying from.

You and me both, which is why I don't order anything available from MM or CSI from FRP. (FRP being the retail front of a huge distributor is really for obscure/OOP stuff while MM and CSI cater to big sellers/new hotness sales.) They both sell RRT for 75 USD and getting up to free shipping from there is a cinch. But lots of other people do buy stuff from FRP and it seems like many of them are buying RRT (or a few are buying a lot of RRT*), unless the Top Seller list is an outright sham ... for which of course there is no evidence.

*braces self for PB conspiracy theories

 Manchu wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
From my perspective it is weird to see a mod call out one after not being around for a while when it is leveraged against their friend and totally ignore the other when it is leveraged against someone participating in a three way argument and that person is on the opposite side of that argument.

First, I didn't call out anyone as a moderator. When I post anything as a mod, I use orange text. I do that to avoid precisely the kind of insinuation you keep making. Second, the argument I called out as ironic/miserable was that someone who posted evidence is like a religious fanatic or cultist, a person who doesn't care about evidence. There was no similar irony in the accusation that someone who has posted critically for many months now is biased against PB and the RRT as a disgruntled backer.

To be correct, I've criticized PB and how they've handled RTT, and the rules for RTT. I haven't (intended) anything more and I'm far from disgruntled at this point. I've corrected judgedoug (twice now) and I'd like to think you read those posts - do I need to correct you?
I'm not disappointed with what I'm getting out of this KS anymore. I'm completely happy - I'm essentially getting the SDF-1 for free.

Sure, I'm biased against PB but that has nothing to do with being "disgruntled" (defined as angry or dissatisfied - if you use a different definition it's not an English one).

JohnHwangDD can speak for himself but I took him to mean this:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm biased against PB

by calling you a "disgruntled backer" rather than some more specific reference to your satisfaction with having sold your pledge.

IMO "disgruntled backer" is suitable for someone who was motivated to sell their pledge because of dissatisfaction with the product and how PB has been handling the project. I would consider myself a disgruntled backer because I agree PB has sorely mismanaged this whole process and continues to do so, even considering I did not sell my pledge and am satisfied with the product I have received thus far. Anyone evaluating my arguments would be right to consider my bias against PB.

Which is why I say to fully support this game you need you need to be able to willfully ignore all the failings. I dont think there's enough players to make this possible.

I think a better question is, what do you mean by "fully support"?

I have fun playing the game from time to time and may eventually buy a few more models. That's about it.

Buy product, assemble product, paint product, learn to play, find opponents. If any of that is difficult the game has failed.

I kind of agree with Joyboozer, if having fun with your chosen game becomes hard at any point, it kind of has failed in a way.

I actually look forward to breaking open a 40k kit from start to finish. RRT is a battle to even start the assembly process, and that to me is a freaking shame because I know that I am super motivated to want to play this game. I know there are a ton of my fellow gamers who are not nearly as motivated.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure a big portion of the 40k Hobby consists of simply "Buy Product."

Buying, assembling, and painting RRT all occupy a range on the difficulty spectrum comparable with other conventional miniatures games (that is, excluding pre-paint lines like X-Wing). The same is true of "find an opponent" generally speaking if you exclude 40k and WM/H from the comparison. I would say RRT is considerably easier to learn than, say, WM/H.

I disagree, my wife plays WH/H and 40k. She picked up the RRT book and gave me a solid wtf look.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1119788

Europe Set Sail, Australia on the Way

Hey, everyone. This is a few days late because I had hoped to include links to some instruction sheets and other resources I’m working on posting, but that’s taking longer than I expected. More should be coming in the next few days.


Europe Update

The container with the rewards for European backers was finally loaded on its ship this past weekend, and set sail on Monday morning. She should be passing through the Panama Canal early next week, and is currently scheduled to reach the UK around February 20.


Australia Update

We loaded up a 20-foot container full of Australian backer rewards on Thursday last week, and it is en route to the port. Ironically, in order to avoid the West Coast port congestion that has plagued the container headed to Europe, the Australia container will be shipping out of New York. Its ship, the Corcovado, is scheduled to set sail from New York on February 8, and to reach Sydney four weeks later. That’s subject to weather and other delays, of course. We’ll keep an eye on things and update you if anything changes.


Other Stuff

Jeff has been working on some more detailed instruction sheets, and I’m planning to start posting them online this week. I’ll also be posting some images from the color guide, including a few schemes that didn't make it into the rulebook, plus blank illustrations to help people plan their paint schemes before putting brush to paint. FAQ and other stuff is coming. Oh, and those cards that are "missing" from everyone's box set or Battle Cry extras (no, it's not just your copy) will be posted online, too.

So, kudos on putting the 'missing' cards online (a 'and we'll include them in the wave 2 bags' wouldn't go awry, but I'll take what I can get).

The notated sprue diagrams that were tentatively supposed to take 'a week' two weeks ago remain a work in progress (meh).

Shipping continues (the people who were all 'why the crying, you'll get your stuff 'soon'; apparently 'soon' means 'March, maybe April, let's be real here').

They continue to spend more time talking about doing a FAQ than simply putting up a page entitled "FAQ" with the text "Yes, in Battloid Mode the GU-11 can be fired up to 3 times if you spend the 2 command points, yes, seriously." (feel free to copy/paste that one, it's on the house Palladium).

Edit: they addressed Europe and Australia, what about ROW? Considering those two and the US/Canada took up the vaaast majority of the backers, how long can shipping a couple hundred boxes take? And before anyone starts in on the 'omg international shipping is the most torturous thing in the history of mankind', they've been at this for nearly 4 months, holidays notwithstanding. Get that gak in the fething mail already, haven't these people waited long enough?

 Swabby wrote:
she picked up the RRT book and gave me a solid wtf look

It's hard to judge what this anecdote means. Did she think the rules were too complex or poorly written or did she have no interest in RRT or what? RRT is objectively less complex than WM/H inasmuch as RRT has fewer stats, units, exceptions, etc. Someone used to the intricacy of WM/H might respond to RRT with a wtf face because RRT seems comparatively primitive.

 Manchu wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
she picked up the RRT book and gave me a solid wtf look

It's hard to judge what this anecdote means. Did she think the rules were too complex or poorly written or did she have no interest in RRT or what? RRT is objectively less complex than WM/H inasmuch as RRT has fewer stats, units, exceptions, etc. Someone used to the intricacy of WM/H might respond to RRT with a wtf face because RRT seems comparatively primitive.

It was kind of off the hip. The rules didn't make a whole lot of sense to her (like ignoring elevation, which I have also brought up) in some ways. The lack of army lists in the book was a huge turn off (Book reading is a large part of her pregame). Sadly I can't get her to play the game, when she has played every other minis game I have dragged into the house, including old stuff like car wars.

My personal opinion, warmachine/hordes is not more complex, just more concise. In some ways RRT is more complicated (LOS and all the ways to avoid damage) in my opinion.

Looking at the fat stack of WM/H rulebooks on my shelf, I am really confused as to what you mean by WM/H being more concise. Maybe on a paragraph by paragraph basis? That would mean each paragraph of WM/H is denser in terms of substantive information and therefore, given the overall greater number of pages in the Prime Mk II rulebook (to say nothing of the many army books), WM/H is more complex.

As for my own personal anecdote, I have owned WM/H rulebooks for years now and still don't understand how to play the game. I understood RRT after skimming the photos taken at GenCon. I have never played and have no interest in playing WM/H. I have played and enjoyed RRT several times.