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2015/01/28 18:18:05
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
JohnHwangDD wrote: And your evidence that the list is "cooked" is what, exactly?
His evidence is, Fate Reforged is missing from the list. "Cooked" in this sense means (at least) that the list does not take into account every single product FRP sells. The obvious implication, however, is that the list means nothing.
rigeld2 wrote: If the list is cooked it could mean that they sold a single box and want to sell more, or that they've sold all but one, or that they've sold none.
You are using the phrase "cooked" here to mean that the list is either an absolute account of sales or it is totally worthless, i.e., a false dichotomy.
rigeld2 wrote: ignoring whole swaths of a post is off-putting
I hope this settles the issue: You can read whatever tone you like into my posts (as anyone could also do with yours) or you can just deal with (or ignore) the points themselves. For my part, I am not going to respond to any further tone arguments because they are no more or less than rhetorical bullying.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 18:23:19
Merijeek wrote: You must not be used to arguing with religious fanatics or cultists. There will be no such thing that is forthcoming. Something was found that he thought validated his assertion, and therefore his assertion is right.
That's an astoundingly ironic example of ad hominem, considering you are accusing someone who actually provided evidence for a claim of being a fanatic in contrast to those who have dismissed the evidence out of hand for the sake of their predetermined opinion that RRT is a failure. This the worst thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka. I thought we had hit rock bottom at "PB is singling me out" but this is a new low.
This is evidence of someone being partial (to their friend) to me. Judgedoug practically admits to trolling, or at least schadenfreude in a post shortly before Manchu shows back up in this thread after a long absense to accuse Merijeek of an ad hominem.
I don't care what Manchu says or thinks about RRT, I care that there has been moderation in this thread by him and he is heavily involved in a stance on the game and other members who share that stance while wielding the mod title.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 18:27:33
2015/01/28 18:24:57
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
rigeld2 wrote: That the list is cooked to exclude certain items.
Since the list seems to fluctuate at least daily, I can't accept that Golem Arcana outsold Fate Reforged.
And your evidence that the list is "cooked" is what, exactly? Do you have some internal view into FRPgames sales data, that you are able to provide to refute the listing that they provide?
The current Top 20 list shows:
1. Star Wars : Imperial Assault
2. Mice and Mystics Expansion: Downwood Tales
3. Robotech RPG Tactics
...
20. Golem Arcana
That doesn't seem unreasonable at all. SWIA is selling huge - it's super-hot on BGG. M&M is a huge seller, so no reason to expect the expansion wouldn't do well. RRT has great nostalgic value as pre-marketing. Golem Arcana barely makes the list.
What evidence do you have that Fate Reforged should be a stronger seller than Golem Arcana? You keep talking about data and evidence, but you have nothing to add here.
Golem Arcana - a game that I haven't seen advertised at all and only know about because of Kickstarter.
Fate Reforged - an expansion to a 20+ year old game, a game that singlehandedly keeps many stores in the black had a release this weekend. Release weekends are typically massive numbers - preorders, release events, etc.
For FRP to have a release weekend and move less Magic than Golem Arcana (or pre-release weekend and move more miniature bags than Magic cards) is simply unbelievable. I'm asking for evidence. Saying "Trust me" isn't enough.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 18:27:22
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
rigeld2 wrote: FRP's top seller list doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things
"Doesn't mean much" or "means nothing"?
Exactly what I said. It's a single data point that's no more important than any other data point.
No, not exactly. I will take FRP's "single data point" based on $M sales as being far more important than your non-data from a single store based on $k sales.
Unless you are in the industry, and do business comparable in volume to FRP, you lack neither the insight nor the data to refute FRP's data, given that FRP's "single data point" represents the conglomeration of several-fold more individual transactions across a much wider footprint than what you might be aware of.
Hello there "Appeal to Authority".
I'll refute your statements with "Prove that FRP's Best Seller list isn't manipulated (because it seems to be, based on evidence) and provide actual transaction data instead of assumptions."
Taking FRP for more than what it is and assuming they're infallible is simply wrong. It's a single data point. If it's accurate, there's more out there. I haven't found any, despite actively looking for them.
"Appeal to Authority", "Appeal to Authority" - you keep using that phrase, but ...
I'm going to educate you: Appeal to Authority is when someone who knows nothing about something uses their position (only) as the basis for argument. It would be as if the world's most successful chicken farmer stood up and said "I know chicken, so you should believe what I say".
If the speaker in question actually knows what they are talking about, then it is not an Appeal to Authority. If that chicken farmer were to stand up and say "Free-range chicken is healthier than penned chicken", and I quote him, it's not an Appeal to Authority. It's actually an Expert Opinion.
Anyone agreeing with your statements based on your "accomplishments" and "knowledge" would be a ludicrously poor Appeal to Authority - you're not an Expert in game sales. People using FRP Games is not an Appeal to Authority, it is Expert Opinion.
Also, your demand that I disprove a negative is yet another fallacy of argument. Manchu was completely right that you are (bad) at arguing.
FRP's data is what it is. And it is far better than the (stuff) you're spouting based on absolutely nothing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 19:06:22
JohnHwangDD wrote: And your evidence that the list is "cooked" is what, exactly?
His evidence is, Fate Reforged is missing from the list. "Cooked" in this sense means (at least) that the list does not take into account every single product FRP sells. The obvious implication, however, is that the list means nothing.
rigeld2 wrote: If the list is cooked it could mean that they sold a single box and want to sell more, or that they've sold all but one, or that they've sold none.
You are using the phrase "cooked" here to mean that the list is either an absolute account of sales or it is totally worthless, i.e., a false dichotomy.
It's not a false dichotomy. Those really are the only two options here - either it's a non-manipulated list and can be used as a valid data point, or it's cooked and manipulated in ways that makes it useless as a data point. There isn't a grey area of "Well, it's not a good data point..."
rigeld2 wrote: ignoring whole swaths of a post is off-putting
I hope this settles the issue: You can read whatever tone you like into my posts (as anyone could also do with yours) or you can just deal with (or ignore) the points themselves. For my part, I am not going to respond to any further tone arguments because they are no more or less than rhetorical bullying.
It's not bullying. I'm pointing it out because it seems you're getting more hostile.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 18:30:08
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Alright -- this is getting too heated for sure. It's time for a reminder that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Let's stick to arguing the points and leave out the personal attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: Those really are the only two options here - either it's a non-manipulated list and can be used as a valid data point, or it's cooked and manipulated in ways that makes it useless as a data point. There isn't a grey area of "Well, it's not a good data point..."
Not at all. If the list simply excludes CCGs, it is still a good data point for measuring RRT's comparative sales. In fact, it would arguably be stronger evidence because there is no reason to compare RRT sales with MtG sales. I think the weak spot with my argument remains, we don't actually know how the list is "cooked." But that does not automatically mean the list reflects nothing about FRP's sales.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 18:35:17
rigeld2 wrote: FRP's top seller list doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things
"Doesn't mean much" or "means nothing"?
Exactly what I said. It's a single data point that's no more important than any other data point.
No, not exactly. I will take FRP's "single data point" based on $M sales as being far more important than your non-data from a single store based on $k sales.
Unless you are in the industry, and do business comparable in volume to FRP, you lack neither the insight nor the data to refute FRP's data, given that FRP's "single data point" represents the conglomeration of several-fold more individual transactions across a much wider footprint than what you might be aware of.
Hello there "Appeal to Authority".
I'll refute your statements with "Prove that FRP's Best Seller list isn't manipulated (because it seems to be, based on evidence) and provide actual transaction data instead of assumptions."
Taking FRP for more than what it is and assuming they're infallible is simply wrong. It's a single data point. If it's accurate, there's more out there. I haven't found any, despite actively looking for them.
"Appeal to Authority", "Appeal to Authority" - you keep using that phrase, but ...
Are you so ignorant and bullheaded that you don't even know what "Appeal to Authority" even is?
Considering I linked to a definition earlier in the thread...
Obviously not. I'm going to educate you, so that you look less stupid and idiotic when you post. Appeal to Authority is when someone who knows nothing about something uses their position (only) as the basis for argument. It would be as if the world's most successful chicken farmer stood up and said "I know chicken, so you should believe what I say".
"Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative."
Let me break it down smaller for you.
"Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement (RTT is a best seller) is correct because the statement is made by a source (FRP) that is commonly regarded as authoritative."
Hmm. Fits perfectly.
"Nonetheless, authority is never absolute, so all appeals to authority which assert that the authority is necessarily infallible are fallacious. "
Yup, exactly what I've said.
Anyone agreeing with your based on your "accomplishments" and "knowledge" would be a ludicrously poor Appeal to Authority. People using FRP Games is not an Appeal to Authority, it is Expert Opinion.
It's not an expert opinion at all.
Also, your demand that I disprove a negative is yet another fallacy of argument. Manchu was completely right that you are clueless at arguing. You're embarrassing yourself working through the fallacies.
Disprove a negative? Excuse me? I've asked you to provide numbers. I've asked for supporting evidence. I've been mocked instead.
FRP's data is what it is. And it is far better than the nonsense you're spouting based on absolutely nothing but bullheadness and bad arugment.
It is what it is - questionable data and a single data point with literally zero corroboration. Which is what I said on my first post on the subject.
rigeld2 wrote: Those really are the only two options here - either it's a non-manipulated list and can be used as a valid data point, or it's cooked and manipulated in ways that makes it useless as a data point. There isn't a grey area of "Well, it's not a good data point..."
Not at all. If the list simply excludes CCGs, it is still a good data point for measuring RRT's comparative sales. In fact, it would arguably be stronger evidence because there is no reason to compare RRT sales with MtG sales. I think the weak spot with my argument remains, we don't actually know how the list is "cooked." But that does not automatically mean the list reflects nothing about FRP's sales.
If that's all that's been done, then sure.
But that's demonstrably not true - as I said, there was a miniature storage bag on the list at one point. How is comparing that to RTTs sales any different to comparing a CCG to RTTs sales?
I'm sure the list reflects something, but it doesn't necessarily reflect that RTT is selling well. We need more data. Which is literally what I said at the beginning of this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 18:37:12
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 18:38:50
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
rigeld2 wrote: It is what it is - questionable data and a single data point with literally zero corroboration. Which is what I said on my first post on the subject.
Just to clarify, I still completely agree with this statement. The part in italics, however, does not exclude it from consideration.
Those who see RRT as a failure are not going to be convinced otherwise by a the FRP list. And there are good reasons why they would not be. But it is also worth asking, on what basis do they claim RRT is a failure?
Manchu wrote: But it is also worth asking, on what basis do they claim RRT is a failure?
The rules are shoddy (IMO).
The minis are iffy - when assembled they're okay, but not really worth the massive part count. Again, opinion.
The lack of support (despite continued assurances that they're working on it... it takes 10 minutes to put up an FAQ/Errata page).
The fact that Ninja Division is completely out of the picture now.
And the lack of good evidence to the contrary.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 18:48:50
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
IMO, the rules are fun and the minis look nice. I'm not sure how evidence enters into these questions of personal taste. I think Settlers of Catan is gak but that doesn't stop it from selling.
And neither do PB's ongoing ineptitude communicating with players nor the shadowy falling out between them and ND necessarily have anything to do with retail sales.
Manchu wrote: IMO, the rules are fun and the minis look nice. I'm not sure how evidence enters into these questions of personal taste. I think Settlers of Catan is gak but that doesn't stop it from selling.
True. I was offering ideas on why people think it's a failure. I disagree with you on the rules and the minis look nice once a lot of work is put into them. A lot.
And neither do PB's ongoing ineptitude communicating with players nor the shadowy falling out between them and ND necessarily have anything to do with retail sales.
This is where I really disagree. Friends I know (that aren't local and therefore not counted before in my FLGS demonstration) have refused to buy into the game exactly because of ND's "falling out" and PB's failure to communicate.
It is having an effect on retail sales. What effect that is remains to be seen, but there is an effect.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 19:04:56
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
JohnHwangDD wrote: And your evidence that the list is "cooked" is what, exactly?
His evidence is, Fate Reforged is missing from the list.
Oh? I'm going to do a little digging.
Fate Reforged had a street date of Jan. 23 (5 days ago). If FRP is using GAAP-based accounting, none of their preorder sales could count until the 23rd, when they ship.
But here's the real kicker - FRP Games does not sell MtG by the case. FRP sells Magic by retail SKUs, because FRP is a hobby seller that happens to also sell cards. If FRP were a real card seller, they would do like Star City Games and sell Boosters by the case.
Finally, it is clear that FRP tracks sales by SKU, not by family. Fate Reforged has several SKUs associated with it. It is entirely possible that no individual Fate Reforged SKU has outsold Golem Arcana on a dollar basis since the last time the list was updated, given that bulk Magic sales are not part of FRP Games core offering.
Considering I linked to a definition earlier in the thread...
Appeal to Authority is when someone who knows nothing about something uses their position (only) as the basis for argument. It would be as if the world's most successful chicken farmer stood up and said "I know chicken, so you should believe what I say".
"Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative."
Let me break it down smaller for you.
"Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement (RTT is a best seller) is correct because the statement is made by a source (FRP) that is commonly regarded as authoritative."
Hmm. Fits perfectly.
"Nonetheless, authority is never absolute, so all appeals to authority which assert that the authority is necessarily infallible are fallacious. "
Yup, exactly what I've said.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. If you actually read and understood what you copied, you would recognize that the fallacy is only when the "authoritative" person or source doesn't actually know anything about the thing in question. When Bill Nye talks about Science, he is an expert, and me quoting him is not Appeal to Authority. FRP Games is an expert in hobby sales, and me linking their Top 20 is not a false Appeal to Authority, because it's what they actually do. You linking to Chicken Man's Top 20 games sales would be an Appeal to Authority.
You not accepting FRP games authority, simply because they don't say what you want does not actually negate the fact that they know far more about the hobby sales business than you ever will. In many ways, you are like an Creationist or Flat Earther, saying that Neil DeGrasse Tyson is not an authority on science and physics, because you believe that God Created a Flat Earth.
Nobody is saying that FRP is infallible. I am simply saying that FRP is a far better source for hobby sales than you are, in the same way that NDGT is a far better source for science than a Creationist Flat Earther.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 19:19:07
On a lighter note someone struck an idea....with OFFICIAL squadrons we cannot make enough for a standard game. So we played with this to use what comes already in the box so that you could. Just make these veterans and add a 5 point character (yes I had to stretch a bit)
And for those less....adept...these are not Officially sanctioned cards.
Manchu wrote: I guess it also stands to reason, if the list was only there to reinforce sales of popular items, Fate Reforged would likely be on there.
Totally agreed. If the "Top 20" list were based on what FRP wants people to buy, then Fate Reforged would be on there, to remind potential buyers that this is hot and they should order some.
I'll be curious to see what this looks like a month from now. Fate Reforged could crack Top 20, but you never know. If I were serious about Fate Reforged, I'd be on a card site where I could buy singles or sets or boxes or cases. I mean, go look at SCG's Fate Reforged page of sales. FRP doesn't have anything like that.
Just because a store happens to sell Magic, doesn't mean it's a major part of their business. Heck, Target sells Magic, but I guarantee that Jan 23rd was a non-event for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: IMO, the rules are fun and the minis look nice. I'm not sure how evidence enters into these questions of personal taste. I think Settlers of Catan is gak but that doesn't stop it from selling.
And neither do PB's ongoing ineptitude communicating with players nor the shadowy falling out between them and ND necessarily have anything to do with retail sales.
If you dislike Settlers for being too simple and too competitive, there's always Robinson Crusoe...
The RRTKS had barely 5,000 backers, of which <10% are disgruntled like rigeld2. Zombicide 1 is said to have sold roughly 10x as many retail copies as KS copies. While a small number of disgruntled backers seem to drive the conversation in the Dakka and Comment echo chambers, it is not obvious that the have any greater influence on retail at large.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 19:40:42
Manchu wrote: IMO, the rules are fun and the minis look nice.
Agreed.
I'm not sure how evidence enters into these questions of personal taste. I think Settlers of Catan is gak but that doesn't stop it from selling.
Sacrilege, get the torches...
And neither do PB's ongoing ineptitude communicating with players nor the shadowy falling out between them and ND necessarily have anything to do with retail sales.
Bad press is the opposite of advertising, it can dissuade sales if a purchase appears to have risk or a perceived reduced value.
Your statement would be 100% valid for the casual shopper who has not researched this product.
I think we all have a different measure of the "success" of RRT.
Since we all have some selfish interest in this game I would think the success that matters is having other people who have the game near us to play with.
My only objective evidence is my FLGS bought one box of RRT and it is still sitting on their counter (since PB started shipping to Canada).
To be a bit more thorough, I should post on their Facebook page and on their bulletin board a meet date for anyone who owns the game.
A "failure" would then be finding two people or less who own the game (my personal measure failure).
I at least know Forar is up the road about an hour but with how rabid this is getting, a restraining order could be issued.
The next level of success is that it would bring in sufficient funding for PB to pursue publishing further product (like Wave 2!!) with some degree of urgency to gain more revenue.
Again, selfish reasons: I want the rest of my Kickstarter stuff.
Since we do not see their sales numbers, we will have no means of judging any impact on this.
PB is privately owned so we have no means of assessing their bottom line.
I could only suggest seeing if Kevin upgrades his car any time soon.
Manchu: I have found the main matter raised was for the casual hobbyist the models are "too much work" (what the FLGS owner has told me when people picked up the box and talked). Have you tried some assembly? I am experienced at it, find it is more time consuming (~20 minutes per model, never mind paint) than anything. I feel like there should be some punch-out playing pieces like Mike used so you can play until you get the models together.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/01/28 19:40:54
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Fate Reforged had a street date of Jan. 23 (5 days ago). If FRP is using GAAP-based accounting, none of their preorder sales could count until the 23rd, when they ship.
But here's the real kicker - FRP Games does not sell MtG by the case. FRP sells Magic by retail SKUs, because FRP is a hobby seller that happens to also sell cards. If FRP were a real card seller, they would do like Star City Games and sell Boosters by the case.
Finally, it is clear that FRP tracks sales by SKU, not by family. Fate Reforged has several SKUs associated with it. It is entirely possible that no individual Fate Reforged SKU has outsold Golem Arcana on a dollar basis since the last time the list was updated, given that bulk Magic sales are not part of FRP Games core offering.
They may not record sales of boosters "by the case" but they do record sales of boosters (as it's a separate SKU). I have serious doubts that they wouldn't sell a box (or case) and record it as 36 (or more) boosters.
Considering I linked to a definition earlier in the thread...
Appeal to Authority is when someone who knows nothing about something uses their position (only) as the basis for argument. It would be as if the world's most successful chicken farmer stood up and said "I know chicken, so you should believe what I say".
"Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative."
Let me break it down smaller for you.
"Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement (RTT is a best seller) is correct because the statement is made by a source (FRP) that is commonly regarded as authoritative."
Hmm. Fits perfectly.
"Nonetheless, authority is never absolute, so all appeals to authority which assert that the authority is necessarily infallible are fallacious. "
Yup, exactly what I've said.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. If you actually read and understood what you copied, you would recognize that the fallacy is only when the "authoritative" person or source doesn't actually know anything about the thing in question. When Bill Nye talks about Science, he is an expert, and me quoting him is not Appeal to Authority. FRP Games is an expert in hobby sales, and me linking their Top 20 is not a false Appeal to Authority, because it's what they actually do. You linking to Chicken Man's Top 20 games sales would be an Appeal to Authority.
So you're stating that their authority is absolute?
"Nonetheless, authority is never absolute, so all appeals to authority which assert that the authority is necessarily infallible are fallacious. "
Oops.
You not accepting FRP games authority, simply because they don't say what you want does not actually negate the fact that they know far more about the hobby sales business than you ever will. In many ways, you are like an Creationist or Flat Earther, saying that Neil DeGrasse Tyson is not an authority on science and physics, because you believe that God Created a Flat Earth.
No, I'm not. I'm asking for evidence. The only evidence you've provided is that the list exists. If the only evidence for a round earth was that someone said it was round (regardless of their pedigree) I'd ask for more evidence.
Fortunately there is a lot of evidence saying it's round.
Nobody is saying that FRP is infallible. I am simply saying that FRP is a far better source for hobby sales than you are, in the same way that NDGT is a far better source for science than a Creationist Flat Earther.
Did I say I knew better than FRP? Pretty sure I didn't... I'm saying I doubt the integrity of their "Best Seller" (with no caveats) list. I've given my reasons for it. You've failed to provide evidence other than "They said so!".
And that's where we are. You are actually saying FRP is infallible when you have no doubts about their best seller list being accurate.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 19:40:55
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
JohnHwangDD wrote: The RRTKS had barely 5,000 backers, of which <10% are disgruntled like rigeld2.
Please don't make assumptions without fact.
Please support your statement of "less than 10%". Please also support your statement that I'm "disgruntled". I'm satisfied with what I'm currently getting out of RTT - just the SDF-1 as I sold my original pledge.
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Alpharius wrote: I consider myself a big fan of Anime in general and Giant Robot stuff in particular.
I watched a lot in the early to mid-80's, than some more in the late 90's.
I managed to completely miss Robotech and Gundam. They are both two important series that I've never been a big fan of, or seen a lot of, somehow.
Did these two series become popular in the USA in the late 80's to mid 90's?
That's when I was exposed to them, yes. Robotech more than Gundam - iirc that's a more recent Americanism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 19:43:41
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 19:52:15
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Talizvar wrote: Your statement would be 100% valid for the casual shopper who has not researched this product.
I think that is exactly who drives sales of starter boxes. It's definitely who backed this KS (myself included).
Talizvar wrote: I feel like there should be some punch-out playing pieces like Mike used so you can play until you get the models together.
Interesting idea. A competent company would have made these available as a free download. Alas, PB is the company in question -- plus there's PB's super-prickly attitude toward IP to consider.
Alpharius wrote: Did these two series become popular in the USA in the late 80's to mid 90's?
I can't speak about Gundam because I didn't know about it until I was much older but RoboTech was super popular while it was airing (mid- to late-80s).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 19:58:34
Finally, it is clear that FRP tracks sales by SKU, not by family. Fate Reforged has several SKUs associated with it. It is entirely possible that no individual Fate Reforged SKU has outsold Golem Arcana on a dollar basis since the last time the list was updated, given that bulk Magic sales are not part of FRP Games core offering.
They may not record sales of boosters "by the case" but they do record sales of boosters (as it's a separate SKU). I have serious doubts that they wouldn't sell a box (or case) and record it as 36 (or more) boosters.
I'm sure they would, if they got the order. The problem for you is that people aren't likely buying case quantities from FRP, because SCG, etc. will always have much better prices. Apples to apples, let's look at per-booster prices:
- $ 3.99 @ Target (full MSRP)
- $ 3.18 @ FRP
- $ 2.75 @ SCG (by box for $99)
- $ 2.68 @ SCG (by case for $579)
Note that SCG doesn't appear to sell individual boosters at this time.
If I were buying Fate Reforged in box or case quantity, I would not even bother looking at FRP. I would be looking at SCG and Potomac Distribution, or whomever the current hot seller is. Therefore, FRP won't have the huge bump from card sales that you were presuming to exist as counterpoint to refute the Top 20 list.
As for whether FRP's list is "infallible", I see no reason to doubt it at this time. There is nothing obviously wrong with it. Your objection for Golem Arcana vs Fate Reforged holds no water.
Finally, whether you admit it to yourself, or not, you are a disgruntled backer. Your behavior is evidence of that.
And the 10% number? Are the 534+ distinct people whining here and on the Comments? No, there are not 534+ gripers. You are free to trawl the this thread and the Comments to compile the list.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 20:03:11
It is a well-known axiom of MtG that serious players buy boxes or cases rather than boosters. But even casual players are less likely to buy from FRP. Meanwhile, FRP sells the RRT starter box for 20% under MSRP, which is only a little more (7%) than its major competitors, Miniatures Market and CoolStuffInc. CSI has a top seller list. RRT is currently not on it. Fate Reforged boosters ($2.69) are at the top of their list. They would have to pay 18% more to buy them from FRP. Arguably, that difference is even more notable considering that while customers will likely only buy one RRT starter box, they are likely to buy many more than one Fate Reforged booster pack.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 20:17:49
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for whether FRP's list is "infallible", I see no reason to doubt it at this time. There is nothing obviously wrong with it. Your objection for Golem Arcana vs Fate Reforged holds no water.
Golem Arcana had to beat out miniature storage/transport bags for the #20 spot. That's not a huge jump.
Finally, whether you admit it to yourself, or not, you are a disgruntled backer. Your behavior is evidence of that.
Thanks for telling me how I feel! I disagree with your statement, and since in this matter I actually am an expert, I can - without a doubt - inform you that you are incorrect. Indisputably at that.
And the 10% number? Are the 534+ distinct people whining here and on the Comments? No, there are not 534+ gripers. You are free to trawl the this thread and the Comments to compile the list.
You do realize that not everyone who is disgruntled actually speaks up? And that not everyone speaking is disgruntled?
Thanks for agreeing that your numbers are made up and have no basis in fact.
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Manchu wrote: It is a well-known axiom of MtG that serious players buy boxes or cases rather than boosters.
Actually, serious players buy singles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 20:14:51
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2015/01/28 20:15:36
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
Manchu wrote: It is a well-known axiom of MtG that serious players buy boxes or cases rather than boosters.
Meanwhile, FRP sells the RRT starter box for 20% under MSRP, which is only a little more (5%) than its major competitors, Miniatures Market and CoolStuffInc. CSI has a top seller list. RRT is currently not on it. Fate Reforged boosters ($2.69) are at the top of their list.
Totally true. Back when I was "serious" about Magic, a box a month was not uncommon for personal purchase, and I'm sure I'd have moved on to buying a full case at launch. No way I'd be buying on a per-booster basis for block play, booster draft.
If CSI is selling at $2.69/booster, that's the same as SCG's case price, and 50 cents cheaper than FRP (saving $18/box, $108/case). Yeah, I'd be all over that if I were buying boosters. But if I were serious, I'd want sealed boxes and sealed cases for my money, not boosters with potential tampering / scanning / cherry-picking. If it didn't have WotC shrink on it, I wouldn't accept it.
Give that CSI is primarily a card seller (it's their first category listed), the CSi list not having RRT on it makes perfect sense, no reason to doubt that, either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 20:22:55
Alpharius wrote: I consider myself a big fan of Anime in general and Giant Robot stuff in particular.
I watched a lot in the early to mid-80's, than some more in the late 90's.
I managed to completely miss Robotech and Gundam. They are both two important series that I've never been a big fan of, or seen a lot of, somehow.
Did these two series become popular in the USA in the late 80's to mid 90's?
I don't remember the exact year Robotech was huge, but it felt like it was just as Transformers and Voltron were starting to appear, maybe even before them. I know I was in grade school at the time, so it would have been in the second half of the 80's. Care Bears and Rainbow Bright were the closest 'competition' I can recall. This was in CA, though, so it may have suffered from syndication shuffling in other markets.
Gundam, was never popular in my area, at least not when I was a TV-watching child.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 20:32:09
Alpharius wrote: Did these two series become popular in the USA in the late 80's to mid 90's?
I can't speak about Gundam because I didn't know about it until I was much older but RoboTech was super popular while it was airing (mid- to late-80s).
I thought at first I had seen a few episodes before then, but upon further reflection I may be remembering Star Blazers.
I don't recall seeing a lot of any anime-type stuff back then though, as in the days prior to cable with few TV networks they must not have been popular enough yet to compete with Disney/Hanna-Barbera/Transformers/etcetera. Mostly because Westernized "Japanimation" having odd time slots is something I do remember from back then, which meant a lot of the time you missed it unless your family were lucky enough to own a Beta or VHS machine, and let you use it of course.
As an adult I had the novels for Robotech long before I ever got to see the three series in their entirety due to DVD remastering. The rest of my exposure to anime/manga came around the time of my few years of college, Tank Police, Macross+, Macross II, stuff like that.
Prior to that time I only recall seeing a few bits of RoboTech, I guess Star Blazers, and Battle for the Planets. Only recently have I watched a bit of Gundam on YouTube.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't remember the exact year Robotech was huge, but it felt like it was just as Transformers and Voltron were starting to appear, maybe even before them. I know I was in grade school at the time, so it would have been in the second half of the 80's. Care Bears and Rainbow Bright were the closest 'competition' I can recall. This was in CA, though, so it may have suffered from syndication shuffling in other markets.
I remember Voltron and Mazinger Z toys pretty clearly, but not that I ever saw anything of them on TV.....
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/28 20:37:13
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2015/01/28 20:33:51
Subject: Robotech Kickstarter Funded at $1.44 Million!
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