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So with the advent of the riptide, I've been kinda miffed about GWs "grey area" with the definitions of things. Specifically Monstrous Creatures. What do you think of when you think Monstrous Creature? Nids, Daemons, and Wraithguard? Or Dreadknight and Riptide?

Really? Why don't the dreadknight or riptide use walker rules?! It's a fething suit of ARMOUR that is PILOTED!!! It's not a writhing mass of organic (or in the case of daemons chaotic) flesh with little to no armour, its a suit of armour! They have 2+ (The tyrannofex has a 2+ too, but it's organic) 5++ with teleportation/jetpack, alongside some serious fire power! And they're... Monstrous creatures... Every other MC can be put down fairly reliably with krak missiles, as well as other anti MEQ weapons, but those 2 need anti tank weapons aimed at it just to negate the 2+, and then they still ignore a third of those as well. Why the are they not walkers? Why are dreadknoughts, penitence engines, scout sentinels, war walkers, soulgrinders, hellbrutes, triarch stalkers, deff dreads, and killa kans all walkers, but not the dreadknight and riptide??? Why does my dreadknought lose a weapon, when the riptide takes a wound that passes though it's feel no pain???

End rant

Why not?

Yeah, this has bugged me too since the GK codex was released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kinratha wrote:
Why not?

Because there are rules for vehicles, and I'd expect things that are obviously vehicles to use those rules.

Just more sloppy game mechanic design. Realisticaly, they should have AV values, but since the advent of hulll points (another poor choice- they already have one vehicle damage tracking mechanic), they apparently wanted to make these big machines more resilient and so went with the MC angle (even though Defilers, daemon engines, are vehicles) since it can't be one shotted or whittled so easilly.

Because they'd have AV 14, 3 hull points and probably a void shield.
Plus it's too hard to determine armour facings with them

I would say that it is a single person with a suit as an extension of his/her body much like a larger terminator. A vehicle is many times crewed with multiple crew members and has no close combat ability. That seems to be the best course of logic, however, shouldn't they also extend a similar treatment to penitent engines and dreadnoughts then?

I wouldn't be surprised if Penitent Engines become MCs if and when the new Sisters codex comes out.

As for why, the Dreadknight and Riptide are really just a giant suit of armor. Not a vehicle proper. Thus it makes just as much sense to make them have a toughness value instead of an armor value.

They're a little too mobile to be a walker, which evokes something a little less agile.

I'm curious what distinction you draw between the wraithlord (wraithguard are just infantry) and the dreadknight. Both are technological constructs controlled by a single pilot, they just use vastly different technology bases.

I kind of like the idea of walkers representing less agile examples of mecha. It holds pretty universally true of the ones I can think of (dreadnoughts and their variants, defilers, kans, sentinels). I do however wonder if the prevalence of non-creature MCs lately has more to do with the fact that walkers are terrible in 6th and they are addressing this not by fixing the rules, but by reclassifying walkers as MCs.

Bludbaff wrote:
I'm curious what distinction you draw between the wraithlord (wraithguard are just infantry) and the dreadknight. Both are technological constructs controlled by a single pilot, they just use vastly different technology bases.

I kind of like the idea of walkers representing less agile examples of mecha. It holds pretty universally true of the ones I can think of (dreadnoughts and their variants, defilers, kans, sentinels). I do however wonder if the prevalence of non-creature MCs lately has more to do with the fact that walkers are terrible in 6th and they are addressing this not by fixing the rules, but by reclassifying walkers as MCs.

I doubt it. If there's one thing we can rely on GW for, it's consistency.

It could be that GW is taking the exposure of the pilot into consideration, although this doesn't quite explain the Riptide. But then it is just an upscaled battlesuit.

Ok, they are like vehicles.
Now look at the way they move and fight.
Not very walker like is it?

They are more of a blend of a MC and vehicle and i guess it was easier to design the rules using the MC as a base for them.
Rather than having to change too much with vehicle rules.

I think they realized that walkers are not too hot this edition and wanted to make it so they could make awesome expensive models and make them sellable. If they made dreadnoughts MCs i wouldnt mind one bit, although they would be susceptible to small arms fire, which is where the line is drawn with walkers and MCs

When Tau were originally released, in the notes published in WD they said that crisis and broadside suits were originally treated as vehicles, but with the number of suits tau could field, most armies heavy weapons were terribly overstretched, if you imagine they may originally have been AV11 for crisis suits, and 12 for broadsides, its not a terrible stretch of the imagination to believe that would have been exactly the case, so they made the decision to give them infantry stats.
given that Riptides are simply battlesuits, but larger, and very distinct from Tau vehicles (devilfish/hammerhead) i can see why they would want to keep them seperate, and have all battlesuits follow the same general pattern. It also means that as a monstrous creature they can follow most of the rules that crisis suits can, whereas if riptides were walkers, they would break a lot of the walker rules.
Being a MC also means that weapons that wont scratch a rhino can certainly kill it, but at the same time, its more durable against weapons that will one shot a rhino and leave a smoking crater. Its a tradeoff between immunity to the majority of weapons, and durability against the strongest weapons.

There is some sense to it, and when you look at it, biological and mechanical MCs have somewhat different statlines.

The mechanical ones tend to have fewer wounds, lower toughness, but better armour and invulns. Truth be told, I have no issue with the riptide being a MC, it makes sense given the precedent of battlesuits being heavy infantry, and the riptide's just a bigger one. Wraithlords, again, make sense as MCs. The only one I dislike is the Dreadknight, because it's a stupid model, I'd rather it just not exist.

As I've said before, this is the artefact of 40K having completely different rules for vehicles and non vehicles. It is my dream that in some future edition they fix this somehow, making the rules work in more similar manner for both.

The answer is quite simple. It allows the SM players to have MC now.

SM have to have what everyone else has. So that is why GK and now Tau have them so SM can have them through allies. I am sure when SM codex comes out, they will have a MC for themselves.

First it was, everyone moves 6", because heaven forbid, SM move 4" per turn. Then it was, Fleet. Heaven forbid SM don't get to have fleet for free. Then it was free grenades and not be able to think to pick either krak or frags. Then it's overwatch. Heaven forbid SM need to have it easier in Assault.

Now it's MC. What else are SM missing? MC.

So I'm guessing, OP, you don't like Tomb Spiders either. They are mechanical AND a Monstrous creature.

To be honest, they should probably ditch the Walker mechanic completely at this point and make all such models into Monsterous or Gargantuan Creatires depending. The idea for the walker mechanic was pretty much a vehicle that fights like models, but the result was a model that dies like a vehicle.

The MC mechanic suits the 'cinematic' and 'narrative' style of agile bipeds and multipeds that can run, shoot and fight.

Davor wrote:
The answer is quite simple. It allows the SM players to have MC now.

SM have to have what everyone else has. So that is why GK and now Tau have them so SM can have them through allies. I am sure when SM codex comes out, they will have a MC for themselves.

First it was, everyone moves 6", because heaven forbid, SM move 4" per turn. Then it was, Fleet. Heaven forbid SM don't get to have fleet for free. Then it was free grenades and not be able to think to pick either krak or frags. Then it's overwatch. Heaven forbid SM need to have it easier in Assault.

Now it's MC. What else are SM missing? MC.

I started in 4th so maybe I don't understand what you're saying but this is completely left field to me. Fleet for free? Who pays for it? Grenades are standard for a lot of armies, GK went overboard IMHO. Overwatch? How is overwatch skewed to marines? If I'm missing the point, which is quite possible, please tell me because right now I feel like your post was just a rant. (By the by, xenos seem to be doing incredibly well right now. Daemons and Nids are kicking butt in non-fw games. At least from what games I've seen. In the Northeast USA area.)

To the OP: I agree with jmurph. If these things were vehicles they would never get taken unless they had av13-14 and at least 3hps and some nifty extra save. I don't really mind though. MCs have their own weaknesses and no MC seems too ott to me right now.

Edit: jeffar, I like that idea but I feel like it needs serious play testing to find a happy medium.
K/S

Ever since GK got their MC I've been super annoyed about it, the model is the same style to the Penitent Engine with an exposed pilot strapped into a walker, only mine are easier to kill than Killa Kans.

All I can say is I look forward to my SoB update and fielding 3-strong units of penitent engine monstrous creatures.

Killingspree wrote:

Davor wrote:
The answer is quite simple. It allows the SM players to have MC now.

SM have to have what everyone else has. So that is why GK and now Tau have them so SM can have them through allies. I am sure when SM codex comes out, they will have a MC for themselves.

First it was, everyone moves 6", because heaven forbid, SM move 4" per turn. Then it was, Fleet. Heaven forbid SM don't get to have fleet for free. Then it was free grenades and not be able to think to pick either krak or frags. Then it's overwatch. Heaven forbid SM need to have it easier in Assault.

Now it's MC. What else are SM missing? MC.

I started in 4th so maybe I don't understand what you're saying but this is completely left field to me. Fleet for free? Who pays for it? Grenades are standard for a lot of armies, GK went overboard IMHO. Overwatch? How is overwatch skewed to marines? If I'm missing the point, which is quite possible, please tell me because right now I feel like your post was just a rant. (By the by, xenos seem to be doing incredibly well right now. Daemons and Nids are kicking butt in non-fw games. At least from what games I've seen. In the Northeast USA area.)

To the OP: I agree with jmurph. If these things were vehicles they would never get taken unless they had av13-14 and at least 3hps and some nifty extra save. I don't really mind though. MCs have their own weaknesses and no MC seems too ott to me right now.


K/S

Yeah it was a rant but I thought it had a point because SM has to have what everyone else had that made them unique. In Rouge Trader, everyone had movement stats. Guess what taken away because it made SM too slow. Now they get a 2" boost for free. Ok haven't been around for 2nd edition, but think it holds water. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So in 3rd edition, SM had to choose before the game to use either Krak or Frag grenades, and HAD to PAY for them. I forget what happened in 4th. In 5th edition, they get them for FREE and SM did not have to think about what to take. So again, it was easier to play SM. In 4th edition Tyranids and Eldar got Fleet, but had to pay for it. Instead of firing, they get to run. So in 5th edition, SM could fleet or "run" for free, which Eldar and Tyranids had to pay for while SM got it for free. Well everyone got it for free, but for Tyranids, and Eldar got rules that they couldn't use while others got them that made them unique.

Now in 6th, CC got weaker, shooty armies got stronger. Just saying it's easier to play SM that is all. So while it was a rant, I ment to say, SM keeps getting things that made other armies unique, which are not unique anymore. So SM having MC is just another nail in the coffin making other armies not unique anymore.

A reason not to play SM is to play something unique. Thing is that uniqueness is being taken away. So basically the unique armies will just look like SM in 5 or 10 years from now. Just look as I said, 20 years ago, everyone had movement stats. A lot of armies were faster than SM. Now everyone is the same speed as SM. No uniqueness there now. So now SM having MC (for now using allies with GK or Tau) is another less unique feature about playing a different army.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Penitent Engines become MCs if and when the new Sisters codex comes out.

As for why, the Dreadknight and Riptide are really just a giant suit of armor. Not a vehicle proper.

Considering the pilot on the Riptide could fit inside a single thigh, I'd say this is a wee bit off. That's not armor, that's a piloted vehicle. There's no way something like a Riptide or Dreadknight are just "big armor". That's Terminator armor. Crisis suits push that distinction, anything larger and the distinction between them really disappears.




The problem that I see is that Walkers are generally rather poor, while MC's generally are superior in just about every way (especially against any of the weapons that can hurt a vehicle) except being able to be hurt by small arms fire in very rare circumstances, and the justifications between the two different types are apparently completely random. A Wraithlord is a machine possessed of a Soul and is a Monstrous Creature, while a Defiler or Forgefiend practically identical except that the "soul" is a Daemonic entity, but they are Walkers. A Sentinel is a robotic walking machine with a pilot and it's a Walker, while a Riptide is a robot walking machine with a pilot and is a Monstrous Creature...

The addition of Hull Points as another vehicle kill mechanic narrow the distinction between the two in the worst way, largely by making Walkers simply far easier killed Monstrous Creatures.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Penitent Engines become MCs if and when the new Sisters codex comes out.

As for why, the Dreadknight and Riptide are really just a giant suit of armor. Not a vehicle proper.

Considering the pilot on the Riptide could fit inside a single thigh, I'd say this is a wee bit off. That's not armor, that's a piloted vehicle. There's no way something like a Riptide or Dreadknight are just "big armor". That's Terminator armor. Crisis suits push that distinction, anything larger and the distinction between them really disappears.




The problem that I see is that Walkers are generally rather poor, while MC's generally are superior in just about every way (especially against any of the weapons that can hurt a vehicle) except being able to be hurt by small arms fire in very rare circumstances, and the justifications between the two different types are apparently completely random. A Wraithlord is a machine possessed of a Soul and is a Monstrous Creature, while a Defiler or Forgefiend practically identical except that the "soul" is a Daemonic entity, but they are Walkers. A Sentinel is a robotic walking machine with a pilot and it's a Walker, while a Riptide is a robot walking machine with a pilot and is a Monstrous Creature...

The addition of Hull Points as another vehicle kill mechanic narrow the distinction between the two in the worst way, largely by making Walkers simply far easier killed Monstrous Creatures.

I can live with defilers and souls grinders being walkers due to their massive sizes, but even the riptide is really pushing the envelope when it comes to that distinction. Dont get me wrong, i love that it is a MC, but from a rules standpoint it really does not belong. I think if models like sentinels counted as MCs people would actually play them......but there would be no reason for a fragile walker to ever be able to "smash," and if they ever did do that i would hope that it would get that taken away. Because im pretty sure if that chicken tried to kick anyone it would probably fall over.

What I still don't get is why some of these monstrous creatures are still so vulnerable to poison and similar biological effects. Canoptek Spiders, Wraithlords, and to some extent Riptides and Dreadknights. If they're so keen on making the game more 'cinematic' then why are giant mechanical monsters now getting killed by Space Anthrax?

 generalchaos34 wrote:

I can live with defilers and souls grinders being walkers due to their massive sizes, but even the riptide is really pushing the envelope when it comes to that distinction. Dont get me wrong, i love that it is a MC, but from a rules standpoint it really does not belong. I think if models like sentinels counted as MCs people would actually play them......but there would be no reason for a fragile walker to ever be able to "smash," and if they ever did do that i would hope that it would get that taken away. Because im pretty sure if that chicken tried to kick anyone it would probably fall over.

Maybe what GW probably should do in the next edition is redefine the Walker unit type by making it similar to an MC with wounds and toughness values, and give them an immunity to Poison and remove Smash / HoW / Fear. Having armour facings on highly mobile units like walkers is a bit silly - most can physically turn to shoot a totally different way to where their legs are taking them anyway. After the sweeping changes to vehicles this edition I don't think it's unfeasible to reclassify a few units next time around.

Because Poison in 40k =/= to actual biological toxins. It also includes highly corrosive acids and other things that can just as easily rend metal and flesh.

The Riptide just exposes a huge flaw in 40K's base rules:

"I'z a vehikle!!! WAAAAGH!"
"Me too, xenos scum!"

"I'm not a vehicle, in accordance with the Greater Good!"
"Neither am I! For the Emperor!

All walkers should have a T value and wounds rather than an AV.

The Dreadknight and Riptide are worn, as opposed to being piloted.

 Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
The Dreadknight and Riptide are worn, as opposed to being piloted.

That is a dubious distinction to made, not to mention absurd one. By this logic if we chop of arms and legs of the Riptide pilot and hook his nervous system to the control mechanism, Riptide suddenly becomes a dreadnought and its rules utterly change. How the hell can a thing like this radically affect to what kind of weapons the giant robot is vulnerable to?

The Wraithlord set the precedent back in 3rd edition. And yes, the reason they gave was exactly 'we wanted it to be more resilient than a regular Dreadnaught'. So it's a bit hard to claim they're doing it now because of Hull Points. Monstrous Creatures have always been more resilient than vehicles due to the inability to one shot them with regular anti tank weapons and the inability to blow weapons off/immobilise them/stunlock them, though at the expense of being vulnerable to small arms fire.

And GW have used this, albeit only once, before 5th edition on a mechanical model purely because they wanted it to be more resilient.

It's not a new thing, it's just becoming more common.

 Crimson wrote:

 Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
The Dreadknight and Riptide are worn, as opposed to being piloted.

That is a dubious distinction to made, not to mention absurd one. By this logic if we chop of arms and legs of the Riptide pilot and hook his nervous system to the control mechanism, Riptide suddenly becomes a dreadnought and its rules utterly change. How the hell can a thing like this radically affect to what kind of weapons the giant robot is vulnerable to?

You could argue the Riptide isn't worn, but the Dreadknight is just an extension of regular terminator armor.