Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.
I'm still waiting for Forgeworld to give me better options to kill fliers.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: (Just a note that I do think Imperial Armoured Company is bad...but not counting 'full FW army lists' for the sake of this one.)
If by "bad" you mean "little or no chance of winning unless you bring allies and defeat the whole purpose of bringing an armored company", then yes. The armored company list is terrible, Leman Russes as troops looks intimidating at first, but then you realize that 40k is an objective game and none of those tanks can claim or contest objectives. And once you take enough infantry to have a decent chance of winning an objective mission you end up with a normal codex list but with fewer Vendettas and maybe an extra LRBT.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'. They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
daedalus wrote: Avengers and Lightnings in HS slots for IG allow them some pretty abusive, if expensive, flyer spam.
Not really. Avengers are decent but not overpowered, and adding them to a Vendetta list is certainly less powerful than taking Necron allies for the additional flyers. Meanwhile Lightnings are absolute garbage, and any player who brings one should get a few pity points added to their list to keep the game balanced.
Agree with you on this one. Not any more abusive than a non-FW environment with Necron Flyer spam against armies that literally can have only a Fortification with Skyfire.
I'm still waiting for Forgeworld to give me better options to kill fliers.
Tyranid options. Hive Tyrant Leninsky Stalinkov demands more anti-aircraft for the glorious Hive Fleet Babushka.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/26 18:11:25
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
I still do not find it bad because only part of 40k is Objective based. In Kill missions or missions like 'Big Guns Never Tire', they do well enough to not be considered 'bad'.
Those are only 1/3rd of missions, and, as odd as it sounds, AB's often don't have any Heavy Support for Big Guns as it's more specialist units that aren't always super needed. My AB doesn't have any.
They are also not that fun to play against unless you know you are playing them ahead of time.
This is 100% subjective as to whether it is fun or not, and the only army I found in my experience that had much trouble with it in 6th was a footslogging Nurgle Daemon army which was very slow and had trouble crossing the board and had almost no shooting. Between the new CC rules for vehicles, HP's, and often complete lack of or very minimal inclusion of scoring units, the army really isn't that scary.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Of course not. All those units, for better or worse, are in the Codices and part of the game. I don't want Planetstrike or Flyer Aces in "serious" tournaments either. But, lucky for us all, there's a huge variety of event formats for players to enjoy. I'll bring my FW stuff to the NoVa narrative and Wargamescon, but those are events I'm just playing in for fun. For the NoVa Open, I'm going to compete and not have to put up with FW in a "serious" environment. Y'all can compete in BAO and WGC. Everybody wins.
Nova 2012: Narrative Protagonist
AlamoGT 2013: Seguin's Cavalry (Fluffiest Bunny)
Nova 2013: Narrative Protagonist
Railhead Rumble 2014: Fluffiest Bunny
Nova 2014: Arbiter of the Balance
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Of course not. All those units, for better or worse, are in the Codices and part of the game.
See this is where that line of thinking breaks down, as most of these units are *intended* to be used in a manner no different than so-called "codex" units, not requiring special force orgs, deployment types, new missions, etc that something like Planetstrike does. They only difference between them and a "codex" unit is that they appear in Book X instead of Book Y, but other than that are intended to be used in the same armies in the same ways, there's nothing different about the game you're playing with them.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Chumbalaya wrote: In "serious" GTs, leave the crutches at home please.
Does the same apply to Mindshackle Scarabs, Heldrakes, Vendettas, Riptides, etc? Because if not then there's really no basis not to allow the FW stuff as well.
Of course not. All those units, for better or worse, are in the Codices and part of the game.
See this is where that line of thinking breaks down, as most of these units are *intended* to be used in a manner no different than so-called "codex" units, not requiring special force orgs, deployment types, new missions, etc that something like Planetstrike does. They only difference between them and a "codex" unit is that they appear in Book X instead of Book Y, but other than that are intended to be used in the same armies in the same ways, there's nothing different about the game you're playing with them.
Kinda like how White Dwarf can change units. It's not in Book X, but its still 100% official.
Vaktathi wrote: See this is where that line of thinking breaks down, as most of these units are *intended* to be used in a manner no different than so-called "codex" units, not requiring special force orgs, deployment types, new missions, etc that something like Planetstrike does. They only difference between them and a "codex" unit is that they appear in Book X instead of Book Y, but other than that are intended to be used in the same armies in the same ways, there's nothing different about the game you're playing with them.
You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nova 2012: Narrative Protagonist
AlamoGT 2013: Seguin's Cavalry (Fluffiest Bunny)
Nova 2013: Narrative Protagonist
Railhead Rumble 2014: Fluffiest Bunny
Nova 2014: Arbiter of the Balance
ghastli wrote: Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you"
Chumbalaya wrote: You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nobody is disputing the fact that you have a right to play in tournaments with whatever house rules you want. Don't like FW? Run a no-FW event. Don't like WAAC lists? Play a comp-heavy event. Hate Orks? Play a no-Orks event. Etc. But don't pretend that it's about game balance or that FW is a "crutch" when it's just about your personal dislike of certain books.
quickfuze wrote: Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
The 5th edition "update" pdf removed the once per turn limit on veteran skills.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
ghastli wrote: Well I had a bad experience with a guy that used some outdated forgeworld rules that I had no idea about. It was an IG armored company thing where all six leman russes and four basilisks had a "slick loaders" upgrade, which allowed them to fire twice if they didn't move. It was a cheap upgrade too. And he conveniently forgot his book. Not owning the book myself, I was at his mercy with that outdated crap.
While I have had a bad experience or two, I have to say one of my good friend's dual vultures with punisher cannons look awesome. I don't really care about the rules tbh, just that they look cool lol
Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
Nope, three turns of 20 templates each before he tabled me. Barring apocalypse, this and my buddy's vulture duo is the only experience I've had with FW unfortunately.
Chumbalaya wrote: You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nobody is disputing the fact that you have a right to play in tournaments with whatever house rules you want. Don't like FW? Run a no-FW event. Don't like WAAC lists? Play a comp-heavy event. Hate Orks? Play a no-Orks event. Etc. But don't pretend that it's about game balance or that FW is a "crutch" when it's just about your personal dislike of certain books.
quickfuze wrote: Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
The 5th edition "update" pdf removed the once per turn limit on veteran skills.
You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
LValx wrote: You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
Sorry, but the balance argument is just absurd in a game with as many balance problems as codex-only 40k has. If people were really serious about dealing with the balance problems they'd make a complete set of house rules (new point costs, changed rules, etc) to fix all the broken codex stuff, not just ban FW (which has very few balance problems).
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Chumbalaya wrote: You really don't need to go through with all the mental gymnastics. Imperial Armour books aren't Codices and Codices aren't Imperial Armour book. It's not a value judgement, just fact. Some people like FW, some don't. There's enough players and events that everybody can play the way they want to. You don't have to win internet fights to enjoy your Saber Platforms, just find somebody willing to put up with them
Nobody is disputing the fact that you have a right to play in tournaments with whatever house rules you want. Don't like FW? Run a no-FW event. Don't like WAAC lists? Play a comp-heavy event. Hate Orks? Play a no-Orks event. Etc. But don't pretend that it's about game balance or that FW is a "crutch" when it's just about your personal dislike of certain books.
quickfuze wrote: Slick loader was a veteran skill and as such can only be used in one turn of the game. After that its gone. Was he using it correctly?
The 5th edition "update" pdf removed the once per turn limit on veteran skills.
You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
You're implying that codex only 40k is even remotely balanced?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
they are just more expensive little toy soldiers and tanks in a game about expensive toy soldiers and tanks..we let everybody play with their toys in our sandbox.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: they are just more expensive little toy soldiers and tanks in a game about expensive toy soldiers and tanks..we let everybody play with their toys in our sandbox.
LValx wrote: You are assuming that TOs that don't use FW simply don't like it. I know Mike Brandt feels that it is a matter of balance. He's said he has no personal problem with it. However, he does feel that it isn't good for game balance so he doesn't allow it in the open or invitational.
Sorry, but the balance argument is just absurd in a game with as many balance problems as codex-only 40k has. If people were really serious about dealing with the balance problems they'd make a complete set of house rules (new point costs, changed rules, etc) to fix all the broken codex stuff, not just ban FW (which has very few balance problems).
Logistically it is much easier to simply remove and fix the little things you believe can create issues. I agree that the best way to go about it is to simply write "competitive" rule-set but it is a bunch of work. Simply banning FW makes plenty of sense, IMO. But I won't deny that it is a "house-rule." The argument may seem absurd to you, but I doubt the TOs that don't believe in it have any other reason to ban it.
LValx wrote: Logistically it is much easier to simply remove and fix the little things you believe can create issues.
Sure, which is why balance efforts should first focus on the most overpowered units, not a blanket no-FW rule that applies equally to the most powerful FW units and the weakest FW units. If balance is your goal then it makes a lot more sense to, say, increase the point cost of Vendettas by 50 points than to ban a long list of FW units that few people would even use competitively.
Simply banning FW makes plenty of sense, IMO.
No it doesn't, because it doesn't accomplish the desired goal of improving game balance. If that's your real goal (rather than just an excuse to justify your no-FW preference) banning FW makes about as much sense as banning SoB. You've removed options from the game, but done nothing to address the actual problem.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Not in tournaments. The issue isn't so much in balance but in people being prepared for it. A lot of people know the gist of every dex but can't be expected to know, even basically, what the units in ALL of the FW books do.
Trade rules: lower rep trades ships 1st. - I ship within 2 business days, if it will be longer I will contact you & explain. - I will NOT lie on customs forms, it's a felony, do not ask me to mark sales as "gifts". Free shipping applies to contiguous US states.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: Not in tournaments. The issue isn't so much in balance but in people being prepared for it. A lot of people know the gist of every dex but can't be expected to know, even basically, what the units in ALL of the FW books do.
And I'm expected to know the gist of each codex I don't own?
Neorealist wrote: Yes? If you are serious about competing in and especially winning a tournament, that sort of information is invaluable.
And to that I say that's fully understandable.
But it also implies that you will need to do research as to each army, which can be done in a various number of ways. And if you're already researching an army's capabilities, it's not that difficult to research the FW capabilities.
Neorealist wrote: Yes? If you are serious about competing in and especially winning a tournament, that sort of information is invaluable.
And to that I say that's fully understandable.
But it also implies that you will need to do research as to each army, which can be done in a various number of ways. And if you're already researching an army's capabilities, it's not that difficult to research the FW capabilities.
Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
ansacs wrote: Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
I guess we'll just pretend that most people don't pirate all the books?
ansacs wrote: Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
I guess we'll just pretend that most people don't pirate all the books?
Or come on forums to get information.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 05:08:02
ansacs wrote: Actually it is vastly more difficult. Go into the local GW store or FLGS and flip through the codices (buys something during/afterwards ti support the store). You normally cannot do this for FW as most stores (in the states at least) do not carry any forgeworld in-stock.
I guess we'll just pretend that most people don't pirate all the books?
Probably true that most people do not pirate all the books. I never hear people complaining about the fact that FW is not allowed in the local tournaments. Once FW prices drop and the product becomes easier to obtain locally (fat chance) then there would be people clamoring for FW.
Ailaros wrote: You forgot strafing run. Combined with the heavy bolter, it's entirely possible for a vulture to wipe out a 5-man terminator squad in two turns due to volume of fire. And killing 10 GEq or putting down over 3 glancing hit on a rhino, or worse against anything with a side of AV10. On a unit that gets all the benefits of being a flier. And being cheaper.
Of all the armies that "desperately needed" more stuff from forgeworld, I guess it wasn't as necessary as the imperial guard getting a better flyer. Or at least another one.
Just to clarify, my Elysians can use the Vulture Gunship and though it has access to the Punisher Vulture it does not have strafing run in the IA8 list which I use. I am all for Forgeworld however I made sure to print out an actual book with the IA8FAQ and the Forgeworld Hull Point Sheet along with the Elysian rules so my opponents can look through it. I have even made two other copies to leave at my local game stores as "store books" so people can read my list and not be surprised by what I bring. In my case the Elysians are not at all hard to figure out, we literally are stat line for stat line the same as the guard book (more expensive though) and have sentinels as Elite choices, Vultures for heavy support and Valks for dedicated transports. Basically outside of the FoC, not to many unique units and two special rules (basically almost everything gets "deepstrike" and iron discipline is a rule that means we use our standard LD even below half strength) really is all that is different.
The biggest argument I hear against FW is that people should not have to learn another book (even though there are 16 books in the standard 40k codexs, no offense in my area there are very few that know in great detail every single book, hence why I feel its not to good an argument). However thats why I make sure to have rules on hand for people to read or internet access to pull up those rumors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/27 08:36:57
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Member of 
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey